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JosephM

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1 hour ago, JosephM said:

To one Trump is a hero. To another an enemy. It is easy to judge without full knowledge. The American people will speak on this matter in 2020 whether with or without full knowledge. Perhaps it would be good for now if we give our critic inside a rest and see what the people who live here really want at that time?

You seem to assume that his critics lack (full) knowledge, yet unlike the trumpeter, most of us take this seriously, are concerned about others (and not just ourself) and we............. read! 

And, most of us learned at an early age not to lie, not to bully, not to abuse or use women, and as Christians to care for the neighbor and even the stranger and that the 'self' is not the entirety of existence. Many of those people voting (then and in 2020) 'live here' and are critics also. Hopefully this time, Russia will not interfere, a candidate will not call for the help of an outside nation (which by definition doesn't live here) and whoever is elected will feel the burden and responsibility of the office and strive to be President for us all. 

Edited by thormas

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Thomas,

It's kind of funny you mention Russia interfering in our election as if that is something new or taboo. We as a country (our presidents and representatives) have been interfering with other country elections for as long as i can remember.. We as a nation put other leaders in power and when convenient we take them out. Do you need examples or have you come across this in your reading?

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1 hour ago, JosephM said:

It's kind of funny you mention Russia interfering in our election as if that is something new or taboo. We as a country (our presidents and representatives) have been interfering with other country elections for as long as i can remember.. We as a nation put other leaders in power and when convenient we take them out. Do you need examples or have you come across this in your reading?

Yeow, Joseph that you make that statement and totally bypass the past (and probable future) interference in our elections is simply staggering (and sad). Trump and his minions can't even acknowledge there was an issue and you go even further by suggesting we deserve it.

Actually, in addition to theology, I read history and biographies, so - unlike the trumpster - I don't need to be provided with examples. It is telling and again sad that you go right to what Trump denies and, like him, never mention or acknowledge his behavior (words and actions) that so many of us left behind as we matured and became aware and concerned with the world outside of our 'self.' 

So, actually, none of it is funny, it is just our trumpian tragedy that hopefully mature, good, concerned people will end when they vote in 2020.

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Thomas ,

I suggest no such thing about whether we deserve or don't deserve. Its a fact of life.. I'm just saying Countries, especially the US has been influencing elections since the 1940's. It is not a tragedy nor the big deal you make it.. It's what countries do. They also spy on each other.  I'm particularly happy they (the Russians) exposed the emails that cost Hillary the election. If they have something that will cost Trump the election, i have no problem in them releasing it. Let's stop judging and being self-righteous without full knowledge and let the people speak in 2020 on what they want.

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1 hour ago, JosephM said:

I suggest no such thing about whether we deserve or don't deserve. Its a fact of life.. I'm just saying Countries, especially the US has been influencing elections since the 1940's. It is not a tragedy nor the big deal you make it.. It's what countries do. They also spy on each other.  I'm particularly happy they (the Russians) exposed the emails that cost Hillary the election. If they have something that will cost Trump the election, i have no problem in them releasing it. Let's stop judging and being self-righteous without full knowledge and let the people speak in 2020 on what they want.

It certainly read that way and now you double down: 'countries do this, as has the US, it's just a fact of life (like rain, like the sunrise, like the moon?), it's not a tragedy, not even a big deal.' There is (Russian) interference in our presidential election and it's no big deal? Absolutely amazing! The trumpster and his 'communications' minions could not spin it better: "No big deal, they helped us (perhaps we should bludgeon our allies to get Russia back into the G8) but really, no big deal, plus there was voter fraud in the millions and really, really really big crowds, the biggest ever." The trumpian mantra is just lie and then lie about the lie, beat up on people, call them names, bully and repeat...endlessly.

And even more doubling down: "I'm particularly happy they (the Russians) exposed the emails that cost Hillary the election." So not only was it no big deal, it was a good thing - we owe Russia a debt of gratitude! Simply and sadly amazing. I bet his minions also believe it was a good thing (certainly no big deal) when the trumpeter warned Alabama about the hurricane and then he doubled down about 5 times while the actual hurricane was endangering people and destroying property. Buy, hey, a donald has to do what is important for a donald - love that brand of Christianity., love that love of country and countrymen.

And now you tripled down, "If they have something that will cost Trump the election, i have no problem in them releasing it." Amazing: you welcome the future interference of non-American actors to play a role in our elections. Yeow! Maybe you also want Iran, Korea, China and Greenland (who is probably really pissed) and actually all our allies (also pissed), and hell, why not every other country (the more help the happier we'll be) to actively and openly weigh in. 

You certainly have made your judgement, so what's good for the goose.......... And you keep suggesting there is not (full) knowledge about what is going on. There is not infinite knowledge but what we know is pretty full and obvious - unless one doesn't read, doesn't listen or is in just plain denial and out for him-SELF, like the trumpster.

No one is advocating, no one has said, that we should not let the people speak and vote - it's just that some of us, most of us, want to hear only from the American people.

 

 

Edited by thormas

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21 hours ago, JosephM said:

It is easy to judge without full knowledge

And yet we do it all the time.

That was the point of my blog … to improve my "knowledge" around the claims that Trump has improved the economics of the USA. It is clear on average Americans are better off than they were three and even more so ten years ago. There is no dispute. Can Trump claim credit for this? Things were improving before Trump's term. 

The few Americans I know locally are saying it is increasingly difficult to get affordable health insurance. How is it for your relatives?

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It's fine with me Rom if you give him no credit for anything positive he has done.. Personally , i don't see it that way but i have no problem with your view. I happen to be satisfied with health care here in the US and yes it could use some improvements but it is a complicated issue and is a work in progress. Nothing is perfect but none of my relatives are without some level of medical care. Hospitals here turn no-one away for emergencies including non-citizens. There is no other country i would personally rather be a citizen of at the present time.

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I'm sorry thomas but your rhetoric above in your last post does nothing for me. Hopefully, it makes you feel better to get it off your chest. 🙂

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1 hour ago, JosephM said:

I'm sorry thomas but your rhetoric above in your last post does nothing for me. Hopefully, it makes you feel better to get it off your chest. 🙂

Nice dodge Joe.

There was and is no need to feel better or get anything off my chest, merely the desire to present a different take on the reality/facts that is the trumpster and, thereafter, to question the position that we should accept and be grateful to another country, an adversary, who is not concerned with what is best for us, interfering in our elections. 

 

 

Edited by thormas

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5 hours ago, JosephM said:

There is no other country i would personally rather be a citizen of at the present time.

You need to visit Australia, Joe -  It kills the US as the best place to live!

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Paul,

I heard Melbourne and Perth in particular are great places to live in Australia.  Still It would be hard to match the Villages , Florida and personally for me I prefer the US as long as i didn't have to live in a big city such as New York, Chicago, Detroit or (anywhere in the state of California. 🙂) No offence meant to those living in California. Just a personal preference from living there for a couple years and the current political climate there.

Putting individual locations aside, i doubt that the country of Australia "kills the US as the best place to live" but good try and glad you are happy there.  It seems to me it's all a matter of whats important to one personally that helps make that decision.

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8 hours ago, thormas said:

Nice dodge Joe.

There was and is no need to feel better or get anything off my chest, merely the desire to present a different take on the reality/facts that is the trumpster and, thereafter, to question the position that we should accept and be grateful to another country, an adversary, who is not concerned with what is best for us, interfering in our elections. 

 

 

Good for you that you know the reality/facts concerning Trump.. Perhaps you can use use them wisely where they count.

Russia is not my adversary. Personally i can't think of any i consider as such, however It seems to me sometimes something good or positive that can be used wisely  can come from the least likely sources.even if one considers the source their adversary/enemy.

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36 minutes ago, JosephM said:

Good for you that you know the reality/facts concerning Trump.. Perhaps you can use use them wisely where they count.

Russia is not my adversary. Personally i can't think of any i consider as such, however It seems to me sometimes something good or positive that can be used wisely  can come from the least likely sources.even if one considers the source their adversary/enemy.

You double down again, this time stating that Russian interference can be (and in 2016, given the Hillary info, was) "something good or positive."

It would be better if you simply said you were and are wrong to be happy about their (or any) interference in any American election. Sometimes it's best to stop digging, to stop defending a position that is flawed at its core.

 

Edited by thormas

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16 hours ago, JosephM said:

if you give him no credit for anything positive he has done.

OK what is the 'good" that he has done?

 

16 hours ago, JosephM said:

I happen to be satisfied with health care here in the US and yes it could use some improvements but it is a complicated issue and is a work in progress

But it has been going backwards under his administration. And is projected to get worse?

I am reminded of I'm alright, Jack.

11 hours ago, PaulS said:

You need to visit Australia, Joe

There are at lot of antipodeans who have settled in my bit of Canada :)

When I cross into the States at the local border crossing … I am reminded of going into a prison.

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7 hours ago, thormas said:

You double down again, this time stating that Russian interference can be (and in 2016, given the Hillary info, was) "something good or positive."

It would be better if you simply said you were and are wrong to be happy about their (or any) interference in any American election. Sometimes it's best to stop digging, to stop defending a position that is flawed at its core.

 

I didn't realize i was defending anything or anything needed defending. I was merely stating my present agreement with what is. Yes,  I was happy to have the information released regardless from where it came from. Are you so hung up on right and wrong that you need me to lie and say it was wrong  that i was pleased to find out what the party and Hillary was up to because Russia was the hacker? Sorry but i just don't see things as black and white as it seems you do as right and wrong.

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1 hour ago, romansh said:

OK what is the 'good" that he has done?

 

But it has been going backwards under his administration. And is projected to get worse?

I am reminded of I'm alright, Jack.

There are at lot of antipodeans who have settled in my bit of Canada :)

When I cross into the States at the local border crossing … I am reminded of going into a prison.

Everyone to their own subjective opinion. I have nothing against Canada and am glad you are pleased with your country. I have been there and enjoyed my stay in the Banff and Lake Louise area. Sorry to hear you see our country local border as going into a prison. Personally I don't share that analogy

As far as the positive Trump has done....   This is the cafe not a debate area and i seriously doubt there is anything i could say after reading your other comments and posts concerning him that would convince you otherwise than you seem to currently believe. Besides , it is fine with me for you and Thomas to make up your own mind. For me, I have seen positive things come from all the presidents during my lifetime. In my experience, Life is too short to focus on negatives. If you see no positives from the Trump administration that is okay with me. The majority of residents (100K+)in the Villages, Florida would disagree with you. Still, as i said everyone to their own subjective opinion and there seems to be a lot of extremes on both ends when it comes to Trump , politics and religion. 🙂

PS. Since you seem to follow our politics, may i ask which Democrat you favor at this time to oppose Trump in 2020 and why?

Edited by JosephM
add PS

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1 hour ago, JosephM said:

I didn't realize i was defending anything or anything needed defending. I was merely stating my present agreement with what is. Yes,  I was happy to have the information released regardless from where it came from. Are you so hung up on right and wrong that you need me to lie and say it was wrong  that i was pleased to find out what the party and Hillary was up to because Russia was the hacker? Sorry but i just don't see things as black and white as it seems you do as right and wrong.

"....dig dig dig....the whole day through....... dig dig dig with a shovel or a pick....."  

You just keep digging - and you add yet another attack. 

I don't want you to lie, simply to realize what you are saying: you are approving and happy about past Russian interference and the logical implication is that any future interference by Russia or anyone would also be acceptable and welcomed (i.e. happiness) if you get 'information' that you deem helpful. An astonishing, indefensible statement. That Russia would do this is one thing, that a US citizen would be happy about it is simply sad. Your position suggests that we need 'outside' help (information) to enable us to make a decision.

I didn't like Hillary from the start and I didn't need Russia to tell me anything.

Sometimes, and this is one of those times, black is black and wrong is wrong. 

 

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21 hours ago, JosephM said:

..., i doubt that the country of Australia "kills the US as the best place to live" but good try and glad you are happy there.  

No, it's true.  I can say on some authority having been to BOTH countries, Australia definitely is a better place to live than the US.  If you hear any different, I can assure you it is just fake news.

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5 hours ago, romansh said:

There are at lot of antipodeans who have settled in my bit of Canada :)

I almost became Canadian about 40 years ago when my Dad seriously considered moving us there for work reasons.  It never eventuated obviously.  My wife and I were just talking about this the other day and her father had proposed a similar move but they didn't go either.  I wonder if there was some sort of push on in the 80's for Aussies to become Canucks?

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Thomas,

It's just no big deal. (unless of course it affects your wishes) Wake up to reality and get over it or just call all countries that do it wrong.    .

https://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-us-intervention-foreign-elections-20161213-story.html

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/10/13/the-long-history-of-the-u-s-interfering-with-elections-elsewhere/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_electoral_intervention

One real life example concerning Russia - FYI

"What many Russians, but few Americans, know is that 20 years before Russia tried to swing an American presidential election, America tried to swing a presidential election in Russia. The year was 1996. Boris Yeltsin was seeking a second term, and Bill Clinton desperately wanted to help. “I want this guy to win so bad,” he told Deputy Secretary of State Strobe Talbott, “it hurts.”

Clinton liked Yeltsin personally. He considered him Russia’s best hope for embracing democracy and capitalism. And he appreciated Yeltsin’s acquiescence during nato’s march eastward, into the former Soviet bloc.

Unfortunately for Clinton, ordinary Russians appreciated their leader far less. Yeltsin’s “shock-therapy” economic reforms had reduced the government’s safety net, and produced a spike in unemployment and inflation. Between 1990 and 1994, the average life expectancy among Russian men had dropped by an astonishing six years. When Yeltsin began his reelection campaign in January 1996, his approval rating stood at 6 percent, lower than Stalin’s.

So the Clinton administration sprang into action. It lobbied the International Monetary Fund to give Russia a $10 billion loan, some of which Yeltsin distributed to woo voters. Upon arriving in a given city, he often announced, “My pockets are full.”

Three American political consultants—including Richard Dresner, a veteran of Clinton’s campaigns in Arkansas—went to work on Yeltsin’s reelection bid. Every week, Dresner sent the White House the Yeltsin campaign’s internal polling. And before traveling to meet Yeltsin in April, Clinton asked Dresner what he should say in Moscow to boost his buddy’s campaign.

It worked. In a stunning turnaround, Yeltsin—who had begun the campaign in last place—defeated his communist rival in the election’s final round by 13 percentage points."

by Peter Beinart ( who is anti Trump)

Professor of journalism at the City University of New York

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1 hour ago, JosephM said:

It's just no big deal. (unless of course it affects your wishes) Wake up to reality and get over it or just call all countries that do it wrong.    .

Oh, Joseph, simply quit digging and attempting to win with a failed argument about a ridiculous position - this is what the trumpster does all the time. 

The 'everybody does it" argument as a justification has been shown to be wanting even when we were little kids. It is simply a discredited and embarrassing proposition. You're better than this.

BTW, we, at least many of us, know about other countries, including the USA (again, unlike the trumpster, some of us read). What you fail to see is that it is not merely about interference (of course Russia and others will try to mess with America), it is your 'acceptance' of and 'happiness' about (any) interference, that is the important issue.

Trump welcomed it, Trump begged for it and many bought his nonsense - this is simply astonishing for a presidential candidate and for citizens of the USA. I get Trump, but you? 

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