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JosephM

Presidential Poll

Forum members preference for the next US President  

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I'm not really interested in debating Trump, Rom.  As a foreigner, I think he lacks any finesse whatsoever about how to get along with neighbours and allies and has a very narrow-minded agenda at heart.  If "let's make America great again" means to the detriment of every other country, then Trump and his followers can have that kind of America.  Personally, I think it is the beginning of the end of the United States as a world power.  It sends chills up my spine that people can even consider this guy's behaviour as acceptable.

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3 hours ago, PaulS said:

I'm not really interested in debating Trump, Rom.

It's not a question of debating, more concern for a friend injuring themselves.

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10 hours ago, romansh said:

It's not a question of debating, more concern for a friend injuring themselves.

A nice analogy.  I have that concern, but what do you do when your friend can't see the woods for the trees!  I find it staggering that anybody can support this man's rudeness, his complete lack of compassion, his ignorance, his racism, his bullying, and his total disregard for everybody else in the world.

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On 6/19/2018 at 10:26 PM, romansh said:

With the latest Trump policy, that passes as debacle in most of the Western world, do we in our communities support the policy, criticize the policy or do we stand by silently?

Perhaps we wonder at Trump's wonderful negotiating skills. And how do we reconcile this with the views we hold important?

What latest  policy that pasess as a debacle for you are you referring to?

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On 5/12/2018 at 1:31 AM, JosephM said:

If i were from Canada or another country and read the news as reported i would share your view of him.

 

If a news channel reports that an earthquake killed 1000 people, when in fact, only 800 died, does that mean that everyone was, in fact, safe and nothing bad happened?

 

The pro-Trump case is always based on this distortion of reality, the claim that if someone exarrogates Trumps negatives, it somehow means that the said negatives don't exist at all.


The thing is, someone abroad doesn't need to have any particular news channels perspective on Trump to be bitterly opposed to him. All one has to do is to watch live coverage of his rallies and read his twitter feed and talk to his supporters and that will do it. During the election, I listened to Trumps own words, I read his twitter feed, I talked to his supporters and in few months that convinced me (based on my 20 years amateur interest in history and some knowledge of cults) that this is a very dangerous man, who, if left unchecked would damage the American republic beyond repair. To this day I have seen nothing that would prove my initial conclusion incorrect.

 

Edit:

Food for thought: During the rise of Putin, before he was a dictator, I talked to some Russians about politics and expressed alarm about Putin's dictatorial tendencies (again, based on my amateur interest of history). Their position was always the same "It's the Western media" The Western media says Putin is a bad guy. That's just the Western media. Western media is to blame.

Today Putin is a dictator. Probably the "Western media" got something right.

 

Edited by Jack of Spades

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Posted (edited)

Food for thought.

 

Edited by romansh

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And dessert

 

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I think he is doing what other presidents promise but don't deliver on. Statistics can say whatever they want but all the people i personally knew that were out of work before Trump are now back to work under his administration. And my relatives who are hard workers are now making more money than they were 3 years ago. I realize that that is a very small cross section of data but it is one that i don't have to rely on news propaganda or people who hate him or have a different  agenda than he has for data. While he has his problems, he is doing what he promised which is an uphill battle against the establishment. Here is just one obstacle 

 

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12 hours ago, JosephM said:

I think he is doing what other presidents promise but don't deliver on. Statistics can say whatever they want but all the people i personally knew that were out of work before Trump are now back to work under his administration. And my relatives who are hard workers are now making more money than they were 3 years ago. I realize that that is a very small cross section of data but it is one that i don't have to rely on news propaganda or people who hate him or have a different  agenda than he has for data. While he has his problems, he is doing what he promised which is an uphill battle against the establishment. Here is just one obstacle...

I think most democratic leaders in the last several decades have faced steadfast opposition from their opposition counterparts, to anything they propose, which would explain why so many of your past presidents have promised but not delivered - they haven't been able to.  That is both an advantage and a disadvantage to democracy I think.  Trump will be very similar I suspect as he isn't a statesmen capable of bringing opposing sides together.  To me, he seems to think his strength is in division.  That might keep him in power, but he will be ineffectual.

I'm not sure it is anything Trump has done that has delivered your economic improvements as it seems to me that time and the structures that were already in place are responsible for your economic recovery largely.  The stats Rom provided, to my mind, demonstrate that consistency of the economy to continue to take two steps forward for every step back.  It's a similar story here in Australia and I'm not convinced any government is particularly largely responsible for economic recoveries.  They tinker and claim credit, but I just don't see them actually employing something new that they deserve the applause for.

Trump indeed has his problems but it seems these days the bar is so low for politicians that we are used to accepting people who lie and exaggerate as totally acceptable leaders.  

 

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I agree with Paul's take on politics in general and Trump's 'economic successes' in particular.

People, seemingly most people, are sick of hearing about the US President on a daily basis: it's (or it was) nice just to have a President and not always have to contend with his latest lie, exaggeration, ignorance or ridiculous proposal.  BTW, the hurricane won't hit Alabama and we have had Cat 5 hurricanes before, including in Trump's administration. 

It is nice to see California, other states and major car manufactures planning to ignore his rollback on emission standards and even some big oil companies come out against his methane position. The guy is President for only a minority of people (at least in his own mind and in his actions). And, all you can do is laugh when his assistant has to resign because of something she said about Trump's family (this from the guy that has no problem trashing others, their families, their group, communities, cities, countries). And he calls others, especially women, nasty - this from Trump.

His obsession with Obama is the stuff of a mean middle school girl (apologies to girls that age) who, after a break up or snubbing, spends every waking moment planning (and carrying out) revenge with the purpose to destroy another person. 

"News propaganda" - that's rich. All they have to do is play what he says and then contradicts himself, and says it again, and then changes and .........on and on. And this from the guy who chastises Fox News as if they work for, exist only for him. 

 

For all his bluster......he is a very weak, fearful man: the poster boy for the ego or self that never forgets itself in and for others.

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On 9/2/2019 at 6:59 AM, JosephM said:

I think he is doing what other presidents promise but don't deliver on.

Affordable care act for anyone? 

On 9/2/2019 at 6:59 AM, JosephM said:

Statistics can say whatever they want but all the people i personally knew that were out of work before Trump are now back to work under his administration.

Does this explain you voted? Perhaps you noticed things were steadily improving once the recession finished … as they have done in the recent recessions. There is nothing magical about this. If you are not swayed by data, then I am not sure what I can say.

On 9/2/2019 at 6:59 AM, JosephM said:

… or have a different  agenda than he has for data

The data I provided was from the US government! They have been collecting the data for decades. I am not sure what you are trying to say by this.

 

On 9/2/2019 at 6:59 AM, JosephM said:

While he has his problems, he is doing what he promised

Including being to busy to play as much golf as Obama did?

Regarding the border immigration issue, it not that the borders shouldn't be secure, but the way he goes about doing it. eg Separating children from their parents on an unprecedented scale. I am not sure how any Progressive Christian could not be critical of this.

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Rom, Obama built the facilities and started the policy of separating the undocumented children when they figured out illegal aliens were buying children in Central America and selling them in the US and Canada.  

It’s a slavery and human trafficking issue.  Obama and Trump are very much in tune on this.

 

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42 minutes ago, Burl said:

Obama built the facilities and started the policy of separating the undocumented children when they figured out illegal aliens were buying children in Central America and selling them in the US and Canada.  

It’s a slavery and human trafficking issue.  Obama and Trump are very much in tune on this.

I can't remember the Obama details but you just wrote that his concern was the buying and selling of Children. Is that Trump's stated rationale? I know Trump has 'preached' that some/many/most (?) of the present children are coming in with criminals posing as parents, but, are they, and is his rationale identical to Obama's? Seems not if you are right about Obama.

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1 hour ago, romansh said:

Regarding the border immigration issue, it not that the borders shouldn't be secure, but the way he goes about doing it. eg Separating children from their parents on an unprecedented scale. I am not sure how any Progressive Christian could not be critical of this.

I agree ............

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Your perspective on these matters often depends on whose propaganda you accept.

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40 minutes ago, JosephM said:

Your perspective on these matters often depends on whose propaganda you accept.

Not nearly, not always and certainly not in total. That it's all make up or 'fake news' is Trump's dodge: "everyone is out to get poor little me, the chosen one, your favorite president." Please!

All one has to do is observe Trump's action and words. No mediator or interpretator is required.

 

Edited by thormas

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On 9/3/2019 at 6:43 PM, thormas said:

I can't remember the Obama details but you just wrote that his concern was the buying and selling of Children. Is that Trump's stated rationale? I know Trump has 'preached' that some/many/most (?) of the present children are coming in with criminals posing as parents, but, are they, and is his rationale identical to Obama's? Seems not if you are right about Obama.

The point I was responding to was “How can a progressive Christian support Trump’s continuing Obama’s policy of building separate facilities for sequestering illegal immigrant children from their smugglers.

I think Obama made a genuine effort to decrease the American facilitation of the child slave trade, and is the lesser of two evils.  

Keeping the focus on Christian ethics, Trump has done an outstanding job of peacemaking.  The US went from sponsoring regime change wars around the world to peace in the Ukraine, Iraq, Syria, Libya and tremendous progress in the PRK.  The only war left is Afghanistan, and it is largely pacified.

A clear Christian difference between Trump and, “We came, we saw, he died!  Mwahahaha! “ administration.

 

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1 hour ago, Burl said:

The point I was responding to was “How can a progressive Christian support Trump’s continuing Obama’s policy of building separate facilities for sequestering illegal immigrant children from their smugglers.

I think Obama made a genuine effort to decrease the American facilitation of the child slave trade, and is the lesser of two evils.  

Keeping the focus on Christian ethics, Trump has done an outstanding job of peacemaking.  The US went from sponsoring regime change wars around the world to peace in the Ukraine, Iraq, Syria, Libya and tremendous progress in the PRK.  The only war left is Afghanistan, and it is largely pacified.

A clear Christian difference between Trump and, “We came, we saw, he died!  Mwahahaha! “ administration.

 

Trump's immigration philosophy and actions are different in kind, not degree, from Obama. 

Peacemaking: he breaks with allies, breaks an agreement and instigates Iran and the rest of the world; he ignores the reality of tests and production within North Korea; he negotiates in Afghanistan while the Tailban continues to kill (didn't he say he would not telegraph his moves?); he sells arms to Saudi Arabia which will be used against Yemen; he destroys any hope of a 2 nation resolution in Palestine/Israel; he ignores the real reason why Russia is out of the G8 and still does nothing about its expansion; etc.

Peace in Ukraine (a continuing dispute after Russia's annexation of Crimea)? Peace in Syria? Progress in Korea? Afghanistan pacified? Peace in Libya? And then there is peacemaking within America: white supremacy anyone, good people on both sides?; his full support for doing something about guns without first kissing the ass of the NRA?; his treatment of PR?; his election fraud lies that tear the country apart? Peace?

You actually think this guys actions and words speak to the Christ within him? Christians, fundamentalists support him for judges, in the cultural war, for going after the press but they turn a blind eye or rationalize his treatment of people, his constant bullying, his lies, his treatment of women (over and beyond his affairs while married), his treatment of immigrants and kids, some fleeing for life, his blatant efforts to serve himself and not others, his constant actions to not even try to be a president to us all, his lies about the press, about opponents, about women of color, his name calling, etc.

There is no Trumpian focus on Christian ethics - unless it is to get and keep the support of evangelicals. There is no ethic except the ethic of self and whatever keeps that self in power and money. There is a clear difference to other Presidents but it is decidedly not a Christian difference: there is no Christ in the trumpster (a bad tree does not bear good fruit). 

I wish it were different, I hoped it would be different: it is not!

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1 hour ago, thormas said:

Trump's immigration philosophy and actions are different in kind, not degree, from Obama. 

Peacemaking: he breaks with allies, breaks an agreement and instigates Iran and the rest of the world; he ignores the reality of tests and production within North Korea; he negotiates in Afghanistan while the Tailban continues to kill (didn't he say he would not telegraph his moves?); he sells arms to Saudi Arabia which will be used against Yemen; he destroys any hope of a 2 nation resolution in Palestine/Israel; he ignores the real reason why Russia is out of the G8 and still does nothing about its expansion; etc.

Peace in Ukraine (a continuing dispute after Russia's annexation of Crimea)? Peace in Syria? Progress in Korea? Afghanistan pacified? Peace in Libya? And then there is peacemaking within America: white supremacy anyone, good people on both sides?; his full support for doing something about guns without first kissing the ass of the NRA?; his treatment of PR?; his election fraud lies that tear the country apart? Peace?

You actually think this guys actions and words speak to the Christ within him? Christians, fundamentalists support him for judges, in the cultural war, for going after the press but they turn a blind eye or rationalize his treatment of people, his constant bullying, his lies, his treatment of women (over and beyond his affairs while married), his treatment of immigrants and kids, some fleeing for life, his blatant efforts to serve himself and not others, his constant actions to not even try to be a president to us all, his lies about the press, about opponents, about women of color, his name calling, etc.

There is no Trumpian focus on Christian ethics - unless it is to get and keep the support of evangelicals. There is no ethic except the ethic of self and whatever keeps that self in power and money. There is a clear difference to other Presidents but it is decidedly not a Christian difference: there is no Christ in the trumpster (a bad tree does not bear good fruit). 

I wish it were different, I hoped it would be different: it is not!

Quite a screed there, Thormas.  

No Christ in Trump?  Yes, Trump ended the stream of constant, failed wars for regime change that America has waged for 70 years.   Sorry that fact makes you upset.

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7 hours ago, JosephM said:

Your perspective on these matters often depends on whose propaganda you accept.

If only 10% of what CNN reports is accurate … Trump is still a terrible president.  Even Fox is beginning to show signs of criticism, is this propaganda too? 

Take the purchase of Greenland for the USA … in of itself not a bad or unreasonable wish. Executed extremely amateurishly … it was almost designed to fail.  

The world now laughs at the Office of the President. But with the exception of Russia it is a nervous laugh of uncertainty. The world is not laughing with you Joseph.

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9 hours ago, JosephM said:

Your perspective on these matters often depends on whose propaganda you accept.

Afterthought … so it behooves us to try and ascertain the accuracy of the propaganda we are being fed.  And that is what the first two thirds of what my blog was about.

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To one Trump is a hero. To another an enemy. It is easy to judge without full knowledge. The American people will speak on this matter in 2020 whether with or without full knowledge. Perhaps it would be good for now if we give our critic inside a rest and see what the people who live here really want at that time?

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2 hours ago, Burl said:

Quite a screed there, Thormas.  No Christ in Trump?  Yes, Trump ended the stream of constant, failed wars for regime change that America has waged for 70 years.   Sorry that fact makes you upset.

Just reacting to those who excuse Trump, turning a blind eye to who he is and what he does.

Not upset - but a nice ad hominem, as is the characterization of a different opinion as a screed (a page from the trumpeter?). Just disagreeing with your proposition that Trump is the peacemaker you imagine him to be. 

 

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2 hours ago, romansh said:

The world now laughs at the Office of the President. But with the exception of Russia it is a nervous laugh of uncertainty. The world is not laughing with you Joseph.

yes it does......................

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