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JosephM

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So when you decree Trump (or anyone else) as divine that is undeniable proof?

If God chooses Trump as a divine vessel it will be undeniably obvious.

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"I submit this is undeniable proof Malcom X was transformed by the grace of God, and that he was utilized as a divine vessel. There is no other possible explanation." Really, Burl? That is the only possibility?

 

Steve

I think so. You have another possibility in mind?

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If God chooses Trump as a divine vessel it will be undeniably obvious.

 

To whom?

 

Malcolm X, is not undeniably obvious to me.

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I'm not privy to the reasons Malcolm X had a change of heart and mind and split with the NOI, Burl. There were probably a number of factors. Muhammed Ali eventually did the same thing. I would submit that it is possible both men saw the futility of keeping the Nation of Islam mindset alive in the midst of the racially diverse and highly charged atmosphere of the 1960's and 1970's. It seems to be somewhat more effective to attempt social change within a system rather than alienating the people who actually run the system.

 

They certainly made themselves and their causes more palatable to white folk! I'm sure many whites celebrated this outcome, and for that reason probably thought these men had finally "seen the light". I think it's possible that both men may have come to their decisions based on pragmatism rather than grace. Then again, maybe they are the same thing?

 

Steve

Edited by SteveS55

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It would appear Hillary could turned into a divine vessel as easily as Trump.

 

So there we have it, it does not matter who we vote for ... god will (or not) fill that person with divinity.

But yet we seem to have to place our bets on someone now.

 

The flotsam of the media circus that passes politics in the US has not washed up anything about Stein and the Green Party on popular Canadian news.

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Yes indeed, there we have it. It's my personal view that neither the Hilary or Trump vessels will ever be filled with anything resembling the divine. But still, we hope that they are, and we cast our insignificant votes like good citizens, and "hope to God" whoever gets in won't demolish the place! Gotta love American politics!

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I'm not privy to the reasons Malcolm X had a change of heart and mind and split with the NOI, Burl. There were probably a number of factors. Muhammed Ali eventually did the same thing. I would submit that it is possible both men saw the futility of keeping the Nation of Islam mindset alive in the midst of the racially diverse and highly charged atmosphere of the 1960's and 1970's. It seems to be somewhat more effective to attempt social change within a system rather than alienating the people who actually run the system.

 

They certainly made themselves and their causes more palatable to white folk! I'm sure many whites celebrated this outcome, and for that reason probably thought these men had finally "seen the light". I think it's possible that both men may have come to their decisions based on pragmatism rather than grace. Then again, maybe they are the same thing?

 

Steve

 

Malcom X was the heir apparent to Elijah Muhummad and gave up his life, his income and his power. Muhummad Ali gave up all his titles and his income for quite a while. I would say both acted out of conviction and against pragmatism.

 

JFK and Smedley Butler similarly suffered willingly for the benefit of others. It's precisely that willingness to suffer for the benefit of others that is evidence of divine action.

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Actually, Burl, I do not question either man's convictions. You seemed to say earlier that, at least in the case of Malcolm X, his conversion away from the NOI (a "virulent racist" group) was by the grace of God, and no other explanation was possible. I am saying other explanations are possible, and pragmatism is one of them. It is possible to be both pragmatic and convicted to a particular cause. Martin Luther King is a good example of that.

 

Also, I guess I don't get the JFK thing at all. I remember his presidency quite well, and while articulate and inspirational at times, his accomplishments were few. He was certainly no champion of civil rights and wished all racial unrest could be swept under the carpet. It was left to his predecessor, LBJ, to make any meaningful change, and he made a lot. So, as long as we are talking about advancing social and racial justice, you should probably add LBJ to your list of divine vessels.

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I believe God often chooses to work through unlikely people. Jonah. Paul. The Hebrews. Moses. Ruth. This elementary biblical theme is ancient in both Christianity and Judaism, yet on this Christian forum some find this completely orthodox concept novel.

 

I really did not expect all this brouhaha over such a simple comment.

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Hi Burl,

 

Again, I can't speak as a representative of Progressive Christianity, or for the other participants on this forum. I would say that those who do express their opinions here are first of all, "free thinkers", and unabashedly proud of lacking any orthodox views about God, Jesus, or Christianity in general. There are agnostics, atheists, monists, materialists, and all sorts of others here. There are even some Christians! But, mainly, I think the people here are after the truth of things, or the way things really are, and not how we simply "think" they are, or have been told they are.

 

Hopefully you will continue to contribute in spite of the difficulties you may encounter.

 

Steve

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Burl,

 

I agree with you. God "chooses to work through unlikely people". Yet it seems to me we are all included as "unlikely people " and God is working in and through each of us no matter the position. If one could say Trump is chosen as a leader and divine vessel by God then in my mind one can also say that each of us are chosen as subjects and divine vessels. Howbeit some are vessels of honor and some of dishonor yet all are vessels made of clay by the Divine.

 

2 Tim 2:20 If we are all articles in the Masters house and it contains not only vessels of gold and silver but of wood and clay, some for honorable use, but others for common use.

 

Nevertheless are not ALL vessels owned by and subject to God's Will? What man can resist the evolutionary pull of the Divine?

 

Joseph

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Burl,

I agree with you. God "chooses to work through unlikely people". Yet it seems to me we are all included as "unlikely people " and God is working in and through each of us no matter the position. If one could say Trump is chosen as a leader and divine vessel by God then in my mind one can also say that each of us are chosen as subjects and divine vessels. Howbeit some are vessels of honor and some of dishonor yet all are vessels made of clay by the Divine.

2 Tim 2:20 If we are all articles in the Masters house and it contains not only vessels of gold and silver but of wood and clay, some for honorable use, but others for common use.

Nevertheless are not ALL vessels owned by and subject to God's Will? What man can resist the evolutionary pull of the Divine?

Joseph

Agreed.

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There are agnostics, atheists, monists, materialists, and all sorts of others here.

 

That could very well be me. ;)

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"That could very well be me." ;) Wow, all at one time??

 

I can't see why not. Can you?

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Now that Trump will preside for four years we should reconsider this conversation.

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Big loss for globalism, the Bush/Clinton crime family and the GOPe.

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The Governor asked a teacher: I have read in the scripture the following and I do not know what it means. “A boat driven by unfavorable winds drifts towards the land of the demons.” Please explain it to me.

 

The teacher responded: What kind of ninny asks such a stupid question!

 

The Governor visibly stiffened and turn red with rage.

 

The teacher said: A boat driven by unfavorable winds drifts towards the land of the demons. The Governor’s demeanor suddenly changed as he got some understanding.

 

-Zen Koan

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It seems the people of the USA didn't have an awful lot to choose from. I didn't particularly like either of the two primary candidates, but I liked Trump a lot less.

 

I am astounded at reports that more than 80% of white evangelical Christians voted for him!

 

But I truly hope he proves all of his detractors wrong - for the sake of the world.

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I'm okay with Trump.

 

I am OK with Trump too. Only because I have no free choice.

 

But I know this, if I worked in a place that 50% of the workers condoned Trump's behaviour, lies and belligerence I would not work at that place. Because I do have a choice, it might not be free but it is a choice.

 

And in the USA ... the voters are the bosses and they just condoned that behaviour.

Edited by romansh

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Try as I have for the last few days, I cannot be okay with Trump. The most I can do is acknowledge his election as president, and that's it. Out here in California, and I suppose Oregon and Washington too, we feel a bit adrift. Nearly everyone I've talked to is shocked at this result and many of us wonder about the fear and anger that has gripped the rest of the country. The West Coast went for Clinton by almost two thirds, the most since FDR. It wasn't that we liked Clinton, we just despised what Trump stands for.

 

But, we are very progressive out here and diverse. We like that about us. On top of that, California is the sixth largest economy in the world (after Brexit). We voted to increase taxes for the second time in as many elections! Must be something in the water (what's left of it). But, Trump says our drought is a myth....a true moron.

 

Good luck with this America....our door is always open!

 

Steve

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Rom,

I had a difficult time even calling either of the major candidates a real choice but at this moment I am ok with what is. It seems to me no matter what we may say about our fairness in elections publicly, they are in a sense most definitely rigged no matter who wins.

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Joseph ... the issue is not fairness. The rules are clear they might not be equitable but they are the same for everyone ... assuming they can rustle up enough enthusiasm amongst the population.

 

In a workplace, at least a workplace I would want to work in, the management would not put up with belligerence and lies ... a bully in fact. In the US, the management, ostensibly the voters, are willing to put up with Trump's behaviour. The current Trump protests, at least the way they have gone down, while understandable will ultimately be counterproductive.

 

My "beef" is with the management (or at least a large portion of it) that endorsed Trump's behaviour.

Edited by romansh

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Joseph ... the issue is not fairness. The rules are clear they might not be equitable but they are the same for everyone ... assuming they can rustle up enough enthusiasm amongst the population.

 

In a workplace, at least a workplace I would want to work in, the management would not put up with belligerence and lies ... a bully in fact. In the US, the management, ostensibly the voters, are willing to put up with Trump's behaviour. The current Trump protests, at least the way they have gone down, while understandable will ultimately be counterproductive.

 

My "beef" is with the management (or at least a large portion of it) that endorsed Trump's behaviour.

The same can be said of Hillary. I would not want to put up with her lies or corruption. Neither, in my opinion, is a good choice but i am ok with what is. I have no issues with fairness nor with my choice.

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