A Question By A Newcomer

[BillM]

Rodge, if you click on my name, the BB will take you to my profile. From there, in the upper right corner is a box that says, "Send me a message." If you click on that, another screen will pop up which allows you to type in a "private message" and then send it.

 

On the subject matter, again, I agree with you to a large extent. I was only capitalizing "the Ground of Our Being" because that is how Tillich describes God in a non-theistic way. He, along with many others, are attempting to not throw the baby out with the bathwater i.e. can we still believe in God if we let go of the supranatural framework that our tradition has handed down to us?

 

I suspect it would be an impossible task to remove all God-talk (and capitalization) from religious language/concepts because religions tend to focus on the transcendent and "God" or "Sacred" or "Spirit" (or Tao or any of a hundred other terms) is just the way our language works. But if, as you say, you would value a community that focuses on sharing personal faiths, you are going to have to deal with the different ways people conceive of and share their faiths. I doubt you would have any success in stripping any such community of God-talk and bringing everything down to a lowest common denominator. This forum, IMO, does make a concerted effort to do that in that many people (including myself) say, "In my opinion..." or "It seems to me..." Doing this helps us to remember that our views are subjective. But it also prevents us from coming to any common consensus because we are like 1000 Lone Rangers, each with their own faith/journey and we don't force our views on anyone else.

Edited March 12, 2016 by BillM

[Rodge]

BillM, I don't want to send text as a Private Message; I want to send a PDF file of a document with a complex format including graphics. With regular e-mail, I can just drag the file icon into the e-mail and it incorporates the content of the PDF file. With Private Message, it just copies my computer's address for the PDF file, not the PDF file itself. However, you can e-mail your request to RodgePC@comcast.net. Of course, that would reveal your e-mail address to me. If you'd rather not do that, I would understand, but I'm not seeing any other way to get the PDF document to you. I think this experimental draft would clarify how "God-talk" can be incorporated into a service without a claim of institutional truth regarding the existence God. I don't seem to be having much luck trying to describe the possible result in words alone.

[soma]

Bill, Thank you for bringing up Paul Tillich and the Ground of Being, I think he was trying to bring the church up to date with the science at that time. Explaining that there is a ground beyond our individual ideas and beliefs, he is demonstrating that our ground of being is created and framed in a greater Ground of Being along with 8 billion other people. When we can no longer talk about it, we seem to meet in the playing field of peace, love and joy far away from the ideas that we label right and wrong. It is so easy to get caught up and attached to our own view of the world forgetting that it is only our way of seeing things or our opinion. The good thing is we are not locked inside our individual ground of being because when we look up to the sky we discover we are in the midst of a dependable, responsible universe that responds to our needs and aspirations.

 

In our own minds we trap ourselves in an inescapable tunnel of dark and limited ideas refusing to open our eyes and turning our backs to the expanse of space and the creations around us. Relief from our disturbances, disappointments and irritations seem to come in the paradoxes and uncertainty that percolates up from deep within our individual ground of being, I like to call the soul. It might happen at our child’s birthday party, a ritual, sunset or another form of surrender to something greater than our tyrant of reason. The remedy does not really matter as long as it frees us from the confines of our limited thinking because we can’t create a new reality with the same ideas that limited our experience.

 

The Theoretical Quantum Physicist Amit Goswami said that for many years quantum physics had been giving indications that there are levels of reality other than the material level. String theory’s view of the fundamental nature of matter differs significantly from that of traditional particle physics where the universe is more mechanical. According to string theory, the fundamental objects underlying all matter are strings of energy that cannot be seen vibrating in loops or segments. They are not made up of atoms, electrons, protons or quarks, but their oscillations and changeability are basic to them. This theory requires that we open up and accept the existence of more dimensions in the universe, a preternatural, supernatural Ground of Being where these strings of energy percolate up.

 

This enchanting idea was also mentioned by Meister Eckhart who talks about God being a Ground of our Being surrounding and penetrating every being and thing, but is no-thing. It persists and is present whether the church approves of it not or whether we want to believe in one particular religious institution because while church attendance decreases, our spiritual yearning refuse to go away. … "It transcends both the drives of the nonrational unconsciousness and the structures of the rational conscious...the ecstatic character of faith does not exclude its rational character although it is not identical with it, and it includes nonrational strivings without being identical with them. 'Ecstasy' means 'standing outside of oneself' - without ceasing to be oneself - with all the elements which are united in the personal center." (Paul Tillich)

Edited March 12, 2016 by soma
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[BillM]

As I'm sure you know, John, I'm not much of a mystic myself. I'm open to a Quantum, though I've never seen one. Ha ha! But the, I've never seen an atom either!

 

To me, the problem is our own subjectivity. Reality is probably really there. I hope so. I hope we're not just shadows on the wall of some metaphysical cave. But what is the nature of that reality and how are we related to it?

 

I suspect that this question has been attempted to be answered in two primary different ways:

 

The first is that there is a spiritual layer to reality that cannot be detected through our senses or sciences. This spiritual layer can be experienced (as in mysticism or ecstatic experiences), but it has to be taken on faith or on testimony of billions who have only anecdotal testimony to support their claims. This doesn't mean, to me, that these claims are necessarily false, but that they are going to be highly subjective and varied. To my understanding, the claim for this view is that there is a universal consciousness which unites us. I find this claim to be highly dubious because we certainly don't all think alike. Consciousness does not seem to be the same for all of us.

 

The second is that reality is made up of only (I really don't like that word, but it will suffice for now) a natural realm which our senses and sciences, while still subjective, can verify on some range of probability. This view of reality can be experienced by most people because it is not dependent upon some sort of spiritual sensitivities. It is self-evident that nature exists and that we are part of that nature. We are all part of this world and, therefore, intimately related to it and each other.

 

As you have said, John, what current science is telling us is that reality, such as we know it, is not made up of hard, little balls that always do the same thing, that are always subjective to the laws of cause and effect. But regardless of what is in the microverse, we still live our everyday lives in a Newtonian world. If you pull your car out in front of a moving train, despite the randomness of Quantum Physics, there is still an extremely high chance that your car will be smash and you will die.

 

To me, Jesus' teaching tend to focus more on our everyday lives and how we live them. Yes, there are other passages where Jesus seems to teach more mystical truths. But he certainly didn't teach Quantum Physics or String Theory. So I'm a little reticent to overlay Jesus' teaches on modern science and to say that this is what Jesus was teaching all along.

 

I don't know which of these two primary views of reality is the right one. I'm not a mystic and I'm not a science. All I can do is to say that the natural view seems more evident to me and to make more sense. I suspect that with mysticism, you either have it or you don't. I don't. Yes, I have experiences that, for me, cause a sense of awe, deep wonder, reflection, and meditation of meaning/purpose. But these wouldn't cause me to say that we are "spiritual beings." With my religious past, those terms are too loaded with pride and superiority, or with the goal of being detached from the world in order to find my "bliss."

[BillM]

BTW, John, I'm not saying, above, that anything I've said about mystics apply to you, personally. But I do think that mystics (like the religious) tend to divide people into the enlightened/unenlightened category and see themselves as some kind of leaders or guides. Sometimes they see themselves as more spiritual.

 

This is even reflected in the gospels where, in the synoptics, Jesus tells his disciples that the kingdom is already within them, that they are the salt of the earth, the light of the world, and how their social actions should reflect this. But when we turn to the "mystical" gospel of John, Jesus' focus there is on him, on the necessity of believing in him as the only guide/teacher. John's gospel has been used down through the years to assert that as long as people believe in Jesus as their mediator, as their Lord, they are good with God. This is, for me, the problem with the mystical worldview - the notion that the natural world is of no consequence, the idea that it is beliefs alone which enable us to experience God (or ultimate reality).

 

I certainly believe there is a transcendent More to reality. But, for me, that More is best understood and experienced by going deeper into reality, not by trying to escape it.

[soma]

"I certainly believe there is a transcendent More to reality. But, for me, that More is best understood and experienced by going deeper into reality, not by trying to escape it."

 

Bill that was very clear and spoken like a true mystic. You are right there are many people spiritual and non spiritual people that have a superiority complex and that is what they have to work out to go deeper into reality. Once the surface is scratched we can see their charming personalities say all the right things, but they really don't care about what they are saying. There are also very simple people who live and breath what they believe in jail and free who can't put two words together, but are spiritual and non spiritual teachers.

 

I chose Jesus as my spiritual director because he is for me the tangential point between the natural and supernatural, who showed me I can respect all dimensions without caring about the spin. He wants my feet planted firmly on the ground, but his teaching at the same time lifts me beyond differences so everything becomes a teacher.