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Objective Truth Vs Subjective Truth


Rodge

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Fatherman

 

One of the major decisions for me during the last ten years was to stop debating what to believe, and to start with what I knew for sure — my own experience. Since then, my belief system has grown outward from my personal experience and knowledge, and in general contains less certainty the further I move beyond my own experience of life. As a result, I'm not very interested in hypotheticals, such as the possibility that science could discover an observable and testable God. I guess that explains why I'm not a great fan of science fiction, but I respect the mind exercises of those who are.

 

Harry,

 

Why do you think it is necessary, or even legitimate, to pass judgment on your stepdaughter's personal truth? (Unless she charges you for a bad reading.)

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Fatherman

 

One of the major decisions for me during the last ten years was to stop debating what to believe, and to start with what I knew for sure — my own experience. Since then, my belief system has grown outward from my personal experience and knowledge, and in general contains less certainty the further I move beyond my own experience of life. As a result, I'm not very interested in hypotheticals, such as the possibility that science could discover an observable and testable God. I guess that explains why I'm not a great fan of science fiction, but I respect the mind exercises of those who are.

 

Harry,

 

Why do you think it is necessary, or even legitimate, to pass judgment on your stepdaughter's personal truth? (Unless she charges you for a bad reading.)

Fair enough. I've shared similar sentiments.

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Harry,

 

Why do you think it is necessary, or even legitimate, to pass judgment on your stepdaughter's personal truth? (Unless she charges you for a bad reading.)

I don't think it's necessary so I don't, I'm not passing judgment here just sharing my personal thoughts. As long as her clients are happy and give her money that's fine with me. She is honest with them and is not a con artist. It is what her clients think that is important.

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Fatherman, I've just noticed that I didn't respond to your comment that "This raises the question for me, then what are we to make of the difference between our perception and the ultimate reality?" I'm not sure what you mean. Are you suggesting that there is a significant difference between our experience of "green" and the frequency of light reflected off grass, other than being different versions of the same thing? Are you talking about things such as optical illusions? Are you suggesting that The Matrix franchise is more than imaginative science fiction, that it represents reality in any way? Are you suggesting a serious issue, or just a playful exercise?

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Fatherman, I've just noticed that I didn't respond to your comment that "This raises the question for me, then what are we to make of the difference between our perception and the ultimate reality?" I'm not sure what you mean. Are you suggesting that there is a significant difference between our experience of "green" and the frequency of light reflected off grass, other than being different versions of the same thing? Are you talking about things such as optical illusions? Are you suggesting that The Matrix franchise is more than imaginative science fiction, that it represents reality in any way? Are you suggesting a serious issue, or just a playful exercise?

 

You wrote, "But evolution has also created brains and central nervous systems that make consciousness possible, but the raw data bombarding us is useless as raw data; it must be interpreted. So where does data turn into the experience of color? Not in the rods and cones of our eyes. Not in the neurons of our brains. There is no physical locus where we can objectively show that data has been turned into the experience of color. So I conclude that experience is non-physical, and that our consciousness is affected by external stimulus, but is not totally controlled by it. "

 

My color illustration was a response to this. I may have misunderstood. Perhaps I'm making a poor example of it. My point, however, stands as a subject of conversation. The Matrix metaphor, in fact, points to the problem of not knowing what ultimate really, but believing as if we do. My point is that Keanu knows for a fact that the gray stuff is the reality of the food, but that what if he didn't know the ultimate truth of it? Should he still choose the gray stuff just in case? That is the choice we have when it comes to God. We don't know if God is the ultimate reality, so why choose the gray stuff over the good stuff or vice versa?

 

My purpose on this forum is primarily selfish. I'm not interested in persuading anyone. I'm interested in exploring my ideas and yours for my benefit. I've learned a lot from the folks here over the last decade plus (since before it was even hosted here), not just by what they wish to teach, but how they respond to my ideas. It helps me develop and grow intellectually. It's immaterial whether it is a playful exercise. You may be referring to me pushing on you regarding your desire to start a revolution of sorts. I couldn't really fully understand what your idea was until I understood what the impetus and the goals were.

 

The gap between what we experience and what the object truth is can only be filled with subjectivity. The first choice is to fill the gap or not. I suspect that some here are making a case that filling that gap when it comes to God is problematic.

 

If I don't implement ideas discussed here in a practical way in my life, then yes it is a playful exercise. Often, that is the case. In so, discussion here is merely a hobby. Or course, I've seen writing here become influential and even become a form of ministry to folks who come here looking for answers. That is my secondary purpose here, to work together with the members to support those who need it, and that is most certainly one of the missions of this movement, to gather seekers and questioners into the fold of Christianity; folks who felt excluded by the mainstream. If you participate here long enough, you will see how people's views evolve. If the archive from the previous site were available, you would see my humanistic, hyper-intellectual, scientific self grow into a hyper-new-age-spiritual self, grow into what I am now, whatever that may be. This evolution starts with experience, but this forum has helped me clarify and articulate what my experiences mean to me.

 

That was more than you were looking for, but this seems like a good opportunity to express to you what this discussion is to me.

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Fatherman,

 

Thank your for sharing your personal story.

 

With regard to The Matrix, perhaps I didn't focus enough on your "color illustration." You wrote: "He has a choice to experience the illusion that his food is appealing and delicious. He chooses the reality that his food is gray and tasteless because he is training himself to live in reality. " I object to both halves of that statement. FIrst, how he reacts to the food is not an illusion. Whatever the food is, his reaction is real, it is his subjective reality, it is truly what he experiences. Second, the color and taste of the food is not a reality, since the food has no inherent color or taste. Color and taste are his subjective reactions to it. He can, with the proper tools, easily determine the frequency of light reflected off the food and the presence or absence of molecules of salt and other flavorings. This in no way conflicts with his experience of eating the food. This is not pushing through to any real dilemma. It is not that challenging to hold the truth of experience and the truth of objective reality at the same time. I have never seen any of the Matrix movies, but your comment seems to suggest that they are based on a dramatic device of trying to set our experience in conflict with reality. That may make good drama, but I don't' see how it demonstrates any truth.

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Fatherman,

 

Thank your for sharing your personal story.

 

With regard to The Matrix, perhaps I didn't focus enough on your "color illustration." You wrote: "He has a choice to experience the illusion that his food is appealing and delicious. He chooses the reality that his food is gray and tasteless because he is training himself to live in reality. " I object to both halves of that statement. FIrst, how he reacts to the food is not an illusion. Whatever the food is, his reaction is real, it is his subjective reality, it is truly what he experiences. Second, the color and taste of the food is not a reality, since the food has no inherent color or taste. Color and taste are his subjective reactions to it. He can, with the proper tools, easily determine the frequency of light reflected off the food and the presence or absence of molecules of salt and other flavorings. This in no way conflicts with his experience of eating the food. This is not pushing through to any real dilemma. It is not that challenging to hold the truth of experience and the truth of objective reality at the same time. I have never seen any of the Matrix movies, but your comment seems to suggest that they are based on a dramatic device of trying to set our experience in conflict with reality. That may make good drama, but I don't' see how it demonstrates any truth.

 

 

It is a device for the writer to express the common view that our ideas and senses betray us. One guy sees a mountain and sees nothing but danger, another guy sees nothing but beauty. We've judged the thing based on our ideas and experiences. The truth is that it is a pile of rocks, nothing more. It is our human consciousness that causes us to see something that isn't actually there. It really only exists in our minds (beauty is in the eye of the beholder). The question I am working with for myself is whether or not I will benefit from shedding my judgement of an object (whether it be a person, a god, a thing)? Many say I will. Many say that it is the key to enlightenment (whatever that may be). But I am hesitate. It is contrary to the way my brain naturally works. I can't not see the color. I can't not judge the mountain. This is how my brain grows in order to navigate my environment. Without it I would be in state of perpetual confusion. Some claim that I would be in a state of perpetually wonderment.

 

I have a very close friend who is a very spiritual person. He subscribes to the notion that everything is an illusion in the human mind. In his view, the mountain doesn't exist at all except in his mind. It is true that it exists in our mind. But the mountain existed before human minds could perceive it. What an very human-centric thought to say that the Universe never existed until a human experienced it. I don't argue with him about it anymore because it helps him live the life he wants to live. Personally, I think it's a path to sociopathy.

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Fatherman, You wrote: "I want amend to say that I do think there is value in experiencing the world without my brain's judgment, but I wonder if there are limits to it. " What are your assumptions regarding "my brain's judgment." It judgment merely an experience, or is it an opinion about an experience? Is it an opinion that something does or does not exist? Or an opinion about whether or not that something has value, is good, is evil, etc.? And do you literally mean that judgments are made by our brains? Or are they made by out free-will consciousness, our spiritual "self"? Without knowing for sure what you mean by the statement, I would question whether it is even possible to experience the words without our consciousness.

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Judgment meaning a value we place on something. Good bad ugly beautiful right wrong. It is our free will and consciousness which allows us to transcend a state of perpetual judgment. We have a store of judgments about everything in our subconscious. We cannot directly change that until we become conscious of it and choose to let it fall away from our perceptions of the world.

 

February has been warmer than usual. We hit 80 degrees. In the summer, 80 degrees feels very nice. It's supposed to be warm in the summer. However, I feel very uncomfortable with it in February because it is abnormal. I worry that it is an indication of undesirable climate change. I don't enjoy it. If I let going of my judgment that it is a bad thing, I might enjoy the weather more.

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Fatherman, If I understand you correctly, you are saying that you were not really referring to the brain but to the subconscious. I have been trying to focus on human consciousness, which I think is different from dreams and the subconscious. But they are all part of subjective truth, I believe.

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Regarding: "Can subjective truths be observed? Can the be deduced?" Subjective truths are personal and internal. They cannot be observed. They can be testified to by the person experiencing them, but that testimony has to be filtered through human language, which has no words for what "green" looks like to me. The best we can do is get a glimpse of subjective truth through symbolic (metaphorical, poetic) language.

 

Let's do this thought experiment.

Take about thirty people to make it statistically valid, including a proponent who claims we can't make subjective claims. We get them to sit nicely and come up behind them and swing a baseball bat at their heads with sufficient force to cause a moderate concussion. We calibrate the force of the blow so that the amount of drama received is similar on a per volume basis.

 

Lets say all thirty odd participants got a headache. Now I suspect all thirty odd participants will have a good sense of the headache the others have; no matter how subjective the proponent says it is.

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Romansh, One wouldn't even have to be a participant to know that they all had headaches. But how did each experience that headache? What did it feel like to him or her? They — and we — have no way of knowing. One cannot describe with precision the experience of a headache. One can only use metaphors to capture an approximation.

 

Do you dispute the idea that some people have a high threshold for pain and some have a low threshold? Isn't that a claim that peple experience pain differently?

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Romansh, One wouldn't even have to be a participant to know that they all had headaches. But how did each experience that headache? What did it feel like to him or her? They — and we — have no way of knowing. One cannot describe with precision the experience of a headache. One can only use metaphors to capture an approximation.

 

Do you dispute the idea that some people have a high threshold for pain and some have a low threshold? Isn't that a claim that peple experience pain differently?

 

Sure some people can cope with a headache/pain better than others.

 

So is it a subjective or objective observation that concussions leads to headaches.

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romansh,

 

I have no actual knowledge of the correlation between concussions and headaches. So, for purposes of this discussion, I would say that the objective observation is that (all/many/some/none) of people diagnosed with concussion report what they name as "a headache." They may even use similar words to describe the experience. But they cannot recreate the experience in another by their testimony alone. They can recreate the experience of boiling an egg, so that's clearly an objective observation. But not what it felt like to them when they were struck and awakened afterward.

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When a person reports that they are feeling "pain", they are making a general statement. They could be more specific and use this list of synonyms:

 

Synonyms for pain
noun physical suffering

http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/pain

 

Most people do not consult a thesaurus before describing their pain or interpreting the self-report of others. As you can see, ther is quite a difference between "twinge" and "misery", not?

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  • 2 weeks later...

When an individual reports extreme psychological pain they mean what they say. One of my best friends said that, just before committing suicide. He sent that message just hours before the fact. He said people "don't get it".

 

I'm not sure you know what my condolences feel like at least to me, and they vary in time and space. But my condolences anyway.

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minsocal, human language is a metaphor for personal experience. The synonyms for "pain" that you submit are metaphors for internal experience, not precise descriptions. Language is filled with descriptive words that lack precision and specificity. We can be specific about the temperature of a room in degrees Fahrenheit. We cannot be specific about how "warm" a room feels. We can be specific about the percentage of clouds in the sky and the shapes of the clouds and the frequency of light waves reflecting off the clouds and frequency of light waves penetrating the unclouded sky, but we cannot be precise about the amount of awe that the sight inspires in us. There are realities that we share, permitting useful debate. We can use a thermometer to resolve a dispute over the temperature of a room. We can use measurements to determine the the presence or absence of certain colors in the sunset, to determine if it is more or less variety in colors than last Thursday's. But there is no way to settle an argument over whether the rooms temperature is too warm or today's sunset is more beautiful. "Warm" and "beautiful" have meanings and are useful in discussion, but they are imprecise and subjective. We can testify to our experience, but we cannot assert it as a fact for others.

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