Pray For One Another Without Ceasing

[JosephM]

Paul,

 

Suffer me for a moment.

 

You are asleep on your bed and dreaming. The dreams in what most call the dream state seem real while fully in that state. Now when you awake, you call that the awake state and then say your dreams weren't real even though the people, objects and places you heard, saw, touched, felt and smelled seemed real when you were fully in that dream state, While awake you are convinced they were not what they seemed to be (illusory), perhaps just the brain working making up those things you saw because you now know your eyes were closed and the room was dark where you laid.

 

The next night you yet dream again but then the dream shortly ends and then nothing (deep sleep) for hours measured by another in awake time. Time stops completely in that state yet you still exist by awake standards but where is Paul? Paul is absorbed into nothingness because he is unaware of recollecting time in that state when he returns to the wake state. Of the 3 states, awake, dreaming, or deep sleep where time has ceased... Which of these states are real and which are illusory?

 

In my experience, the last is closer to reality than the first.

 

just sayin..

Joseph

[SteveS55]

It seems to me that the question of whether or not our existence is illusory has been somewhat popularized in the West. It is an Eastern notion related to the ideas of impermanence and non-self, but it is also a realization that comes to very few of us. In the meantime this “illusion” is very persistent.

 

It also has the characteristic of being “sensate”, meaning that just because existence is illusory, doesn’t mean we don’t experience it as physical sensation. As long as we are human, we will experience these physical, mental and psychological sensations, many of which are painful. To try and tell ourselves that all of this is “merely” an illusion does nothing to alleviate the suffering that is pervasive in the world.

 

Peace.

Steve

[JosephM]

 

 

As long as we are human, we will experience these physical, mental and psychological sensations, many of which are painful. To try and tell ourselves that all of this is “merely” an illusion does nothing to alleviate the suffering that is pervasive in the world.

 

Agreed Steve.

 

Using the word illusion was only meant to say things are not what they always seem to be. It helps one to not get caught up in all the drama that one has not yet a full understanding of.

 

You bring up a good point with the word impermanence.. If scientifically, everything we see, feel, touch, hear, smell etc is impermanent then it cannot be as it seems except for the moment. Therefor its appearance though real enough, is constantly changing in time and illusory in nature. Energy cannot be seen, only the effects of it so that the manifest is made from those things that cannot be seen. It is the same with our perception of things, we live in a world of effects where we look for causes. Yet i find no causes in the visible, only preconditions. We see Death and starvation and yes we do something within our power to alleviate it but that does not detract from the greater picture that the world is not broken, the universe is unfolding and all these things are in a delicate and intelligent balance. Death and starvation seen from a narrow perspective perhaps can lead to depression, anger, hate, apathy or blame which does little to rectify any situation. Therefor i think an understanding of the illusory nature of things can better prepare us to take action without the negative implications.

 

Just my thoughts,

Joseph

[PaulS]

Paul,

 

Suffer me for a moment.

 

You are asleep on your bed and dreaming. The dreams in what most call the dream state seem real while fully in that state. Now when you awake, you call that the awake state and then say your dreams weren't real even though the people, objects and places you heard, saw, touched, felt and smelled seemed real when you were fully in that dream state, While awake you are convinced they were not what they seemed to be (illusory), perhaps just the brain working making up those things you saw because you now know your eyes were closed and the room was dark where you laid.

 

The next night you yet dream again but then the dream shortly ends and then nothing (deep sleep) for hours measured by another in awake time. Time stops completely in that state yet you still exist by awake standards but where is Paul? Paul is absorbed into nothingness because he is unaware of recollecting time in that state when he returns to the wake state. Of the 3 states, awake, dreaming, or deep sleep where time has ceased... Which of these states are real and which are illusory?

 

In my experience, the last is closer to reality than the first.

 

just sayin..

Joseph

Yet whilst you were asleep, time in fact did not stand still and what you dreamt indeed did not really occur. I don't think many of us really think dreams and real life are the same thing. We acknowledge and differentiate when our bio computer is doing other things during sleeptime versus when we are awake. As far as I'm aware, nobody has died from starvation or preventable disease because they have dreamt it. They have died because it is very real in awake life, but not real in dream life. I am under no illusion that what we dream cannot physically harm us, so I think there is a very big difference between the 'realities' of awake vs dream state.

[JosephM]

Oh well Paul... i guess you missed the real point.

 

Let's just enjoy our cup of coffee here in the cafe.

[PaulS]

That's okay Joseph (and I am enjoying a coffee as I write!).

 

I don't think I have missed the point, rather I am not convinced your point is valid (and of course I mean that nicely).

 

I accept of course that that is how you see things - I just don't' presently see them the same.

 

But life goes on!

[JosephM]

The point Paul is... it depends on the perspective state your looking from. Of course the dream is not real from the wake state and of course time did not stand still from the awake state when you were in deep sleep. Of course nobody has starved to death or died because they dreamed it from the perspective of the awake state.

 

Now what if ? .... this awake state is really a longer dream you chose and when you wake up from it in 10 or 20 years or more you realize it was only like a dream and nobody really died or starved. While it is a lucid one and persistent and has all the appearances of reality in that it is highly structured, continuing each day in the form of chapters, you really didn't die... and getting all upset over the drama was just part of an experience you agreed to share in without memory recall in the first place.

 

I put it in the what if structure not to say this is the way it is... because it is not something someone can tell you and then you just believe. Rather i said it to show you one of a number of possibilities that might cause one to look at things in not quite the same way. Can you really know? I would say yes, but it will be found closer to the third state that i mentioned above in the other post which to you might not be real.

 

Are you lost in your dream?

 

Great coffee... enjoy

Joseph

[PaulS]

Of course all of that is a possibility, as is the possibility we are living inside the tummy of a giant dragon, or that like the movie The Matrix we are simply running software whilst our bodies are being sucked dry by machines in the real world. I don't say that to ridicule but to acknowledge that all manner of possibilities are just that, possibilities.

 

Without a doubt, the possibility we are living in a dream, is a possibility, but it is not one that I accept at this point in time. I choose to remain open to the possibility, but in the absence of something directing my beliefs that way, it seems improbable, to me.

 

But I question if believing in this possibility is harmful? Although I know you care for others to some degree (as do I - we both care enough to do something to some degree or another) the whole 'this is just a dream so suffering isn't really suffering' allows people to ignore the very real suffering that I think exists. Much like the statement that started this thread which attributes all the 'good' to God but ignores all the 'bad'. If it's all just a dream then we have no reason really to care for the environment, to love one another, to move forward - we'll just wake up one day and acknowledge that was all a dream.

 

Of course, if I am living in a dream then it doesn't really matter what I think about the here and now. I guess the only way this possibility can be verified is if I wake up one day!

[JosephM]

Paul,

 

Check out this interesting summation of Buddhism when you get a chance. It is considered by most an Atheistic religion and perhaps all Buddhists might not agree but THIS SUMMATION is based on the Pauli Canon which i believe is the oldest record of what the Buddha actually taught.. (don't quote me on that!)

I think its worth reading and then a deep study of the original language of what Jesus taught about the kingdom of God/Heaven seems to me to parallel much of it. Still one has to actually wake from the dream to realize this for oneself. So as Paul of the NT is reported writing... " Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light."