Why Are Some "spiritual"?

[overcast]

So what is so compelling about Jesus that you would identify as a Christian, while rejecting the spiritual nature of Jesus? (I'm assuming that you are a Christian)

 

My answer would be that you can practice much of what he taught without believing in spirit. I know many people who do. You don't even have to call yourself a Christian to act as a Christian. That's fine.

I'm an atheist. I grew up Episcopalian and lost faith as an adult.

 

Now, I'm going to challenge you a bit here. As far as mental health goes, I have bipolar affective disorder. I've seen my fair share of mental health professionals, and not one of them would agree with you that spirituality is a symptom of mental illness or that it is unhealthy in any way. That notion, which was prevalent 100 years ago, is passing away What is your science regarding spirituality and mental health?

 

This paper reflects the current direction of psychology/psychiatry in regard to spirituality and mental health. There are many such studies and articles that support the ideas in this paper

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2755140/

o.k. I skimmed the abstract, but I didn't read the article. I am aware that the psychiatric groups have been trying to be more friendly to spirituality. Part of the problem is that spirituality has broadened to include less harmful concepts. Nowadays a person could describe fishing as a form of spirituality and nobody would blink an eye.

 

I'm sorry you have bipolar, because it is apparently very dangerous and difficult. A few years ago I had a psychotic episode for the first and only time (hopefully). I lived through that experience without any treatment at all, because my family are Christians and believed it was "spiritual". It's taken 5 years to fully recover, but now I am normal. So that's where I'm coming from.

[overcast]

A couple of observations:

We define mental illness into and out of existence.

Spirituality seems to be different things for different people.

 

For me spirituality is the few moments that I have had in my life that I was in awe.

 

One such moment, as an example, was looking down a microscope looking at a pre-zygote when my wife and I were trying IVF. Those four tiny cells - potential human being.

 

Anyway is not acceptance (as opposed to apathy) a form of spirituality?

I think the solution would be to abandon the word "spirituality". Let "spirituality" be reserved for the beliefs and practices that assume the existence of a non-physical, spiritual world.

 

I've had some uplifting experiences like you describe, and those are nice. The problem comes when people describe these experiences using the "spiritual" lingo. When a person with psychological problems says "the Holy Spirit told me to move to Arizona", nobody considers the possibility that this person might be hearing voices, because normal people use the same words for more normal circumstances.

[fatherman]

overcast.

Wow. Yeah, that's a harmful and perhaps deadly belief...believing that a medical issue like psychosis is a spiritual issue. If that's what you mean by spirituality, then I agree with you that it is harmful 100%

[fatherman]

I think the solution would be to abandon the word "spirituality". Let "spirituality" be reserved for the beliefs and practices that assume the existence of a non-physical, spiritual world.

 

I've had some uplifting experiences like you describe, and those are nice. The problem comes when people describe these experiences using the "spiritual" lingo. When a person with psychological problems says "the Holy Spirit told me to move to Arizona", nobody considers the possibility that this person might be hearing voices, because normal people use the same words for more normal circumstances.

 

The DSMV notes a difference between religious psychosis and spirituality. There is a difference between "hearing voices" because you have schizophrenia and sensing the leading of the holy spirit.

[JosephM]

In my view, anyone can be dangerous whether considered religious, spiritual, atheist, or otherwise. Spiritually , in my view doesn't make one any more dangerous than one who insists they are not spiritual. One could say patriotism makes one dangerous, politics makes one dangerous, liberality makes one dangerous, etc. etc. yet to me, they are all merely smoke screens.

Joseph

[overcast]

The DSMV notes a difference between religious psychosis and spirituality. There is a difference between "hearing voices" because you have schizophrenia and sensing the leading of the holy spirit.

During my religious phase, I read several accounts of monks and saints. Now I can look back and see that many of those monks were mentally ill. For example, there was a story about a monk who ate dirt, then I saw a youtube video about a girl with bipolar who described feeling compelled to lay down in a culvert and eat rocks. There was another story about a bishop who supposedly had a demon whispering doubts in his ears almost constantly for years, and that is similar to accounts of hearing voices. There is another case of a medieval Moslem who was executed because he believed he was God - a very common delusion. In the bible there are prophets who cut themselves just like so many modern people cut themselves compulsively. Somewhere I believe the Bible mentions that you can tell a prophet by his scars. I have heard that the Pentecostal churches attract mentally ill people who are not aware that they need psychological help. There are youtube videos of mass kundalini awakenings much like the craziness of Pentecostal and Charismatic churches; these criticisms of spirituality apply to all religions.

 

So what's my point? All the good plants growing in the religious/spiritual gardens can be transplanted into atheist gardens where there are no snakes to bite us.

[romansh]

Overcast,

I don't know if you have come across the concept of the Bicameral Mind - proposed by Julian Jaynes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicameralism_(psychology)

 

It is outside of my expertise and I am far from sure of the veracity. Dawkins' take on it was ... "It is one of those books that is either complete rubbish or a work of consummate genius, nothing in between! Probably the former, but I'm hedging my bets." But based on personal introspection it is not impossible. My take on it would be: if true, a few thousand years of evolution would not be enough to eliminate it from our population.

[overcast]

Thanks, romansh, I wasn't aware of that theory. I've heard some similar ideas to explain the human tendency to believe in spirits, religions, etc.

[minsocal]

I have noticed that many "spiritual" people believe the same things that atheists believe. Do any of you have ideas about what personality traits make people interested in "spiritual" ideas, practices, etc.?

 

Personally, I'm not "spiritual", and I don't understand what motivates "spiritual" people. I'm only interested in talking to a real God, learning my real purpose, etc. Evidence has always been very important to me. I have a few experiences that don't fit neatly into reality or psychosis. Those loose ends bug me.

 

"Spiritual" people seem to have different motivations that puzzle me.

 

The question that provides a clue to an answer to your question is "what do you value? You use the word "purpose" and that word is clustered with a number of words that imply value. In that sense you are spiritual. Psychological theories exist in abundance surrounding the relationship of "spirit" and "purpose".

[UnitedLove]

Good question..............I searched for pleasure in many physical and mental experiences, but the coin would flip and the reverse side would appear with pain. It seems they come together on the same gold coin. I traveled overseas for 20 years thinking I could find it elsewhere. I am grateful for all the people who let me down and the pain I experienced because suffering got my attention and turned my focus within myself. My mind searched in books for the answers and my body tried every sensation, but nothing could satisfy an endless craving. My mind and my body, I have them, but who am I? I still don't know who I am and my pleasure is not at such a high peek of excitement, but the good thing is the let down is not so low either. Philosophy and an interest in different cultures and religions gave me an experience beyond my body and mind. It seemed that the different religions are saying the same thing and the mystics in them are all holding hands dancing together. I can only refer to the experience as peace and love, but it caused my awareness to change for what I was looking all over the world for. I didn't have to go anywhere.

 

I wrote this as part of an essay

 

In the grace and comfort of unity, a spiritual experience encounters a new heaven and a new earth where everything is united. The confusions on the physical plane, the duality of the sins and miseries of the mind are not remembered or renewed in the spiritual experience. In the present moment harmony we see the balance and unity of opposites because a center of heaven on earth has glory in our sorrows when we are at our lowest point we are also the most open to change and a new life. The beast in us can lay in peace with our innocence in our renewal where we become whole or holy. We just need a paradigm shift so the mind in not trapped in the brain and opens to the awareness of being a part of the unified force field where we interact with the universe. If we make this shift in consciousness our story becomes a love story and we stop blaming others for our misfortune as we reinterpret our memories, which in Christianity is the process of forgiveness. Science is helping us to reinterpret the universe by showing us that everything in the universe is connected without boundaries or restrictions; therefore, as we are a part of the universe we are totally responsible for our character and our choices. Ignore the criticisms and judgments of the mind and listen to the Divinity within because the mind is asking the questions, but it is the soul that answers them. We begin to see through the soul’s perspective when we realize our connection to the universe, open ourselves to love and let the soul show the way. We are in and a part of the infinite, but somehow we do the most difficult thing, which is to separate ourselves from infinity with our mind. The spirit is always there connected with everything in eternity; we just need to remove the obstructions that keep us from it. Jung called the harmonizing, the awareness of our unity with the infinite synchronicity. “Synchronicity is an ever present reality for those who have eyes to see.” (Carl Jung)

I really resonated with your explanation and journey of discovery. What you described here is what led me to God ultimately. The more I went in and grew and evolved, flowing with the awareness and guidance of those "intuitive" thoughts and feelings with trust, I realised that was my God spark and connection.

[soma]

United in Love, I am inspired by your love and courage to enter the unknown journey within to have a direct experience through the unity of love and by dropping the the mind's filter of apprehension. The good thing is when we find ourselves acting in the being of our consciousness instead of acting out in the mind, a human being observing the mind. Our paths are so different because we are different, but they are the same because we have to go through the same things in different ways to get to the same place.

[UnitedLove]

United in Love, I am inspired by your love and courage to enter the unknown journey within to have a direct experience through the unity of love and by dropping the the mind's filter of apprehension. The good thing is when we find ourselves acting in the being of our consciousness instead of acting out in the mind, a human being observing the mind. Our paths are so different because we are different, but they are the same because we have to go through the same things in different ways to get to the same place.

So true Soma, I love the way you worded that I have always been empathetic and driven mad by the injustices in the world. That constant reflection and putting myself in others shoes opens my awareness to suffering and the realization that could have or has been me, and how a simple act of kindness can reignite hope and gratitude to life. We are all connected after all....it's important for us as a whole to really truly grasp this.

 

Personally for me "spirituality" is just a word to help describe the journey of my evolving consciousness and awareness not only within myself, but with the connection to all things (which even science is proving more and more everyday). Its that conscious decision to grow and expand in the understanding of myself and the world which brings a feeling of joy, awe and contentment. To see the world in all its colors not just black and white.

 

Nikola Tesla even stated “The day science begins to study non-physical phenomena, it will make more progress in one decade than in all the previous centuries of its existence.”

For me it brings joy and wonder to the journey allowing me to remain in a more positive state of being through contemplation and the realization of whats really important to me and life.

The more I seek, the more I learn, the more I find, the more I evolve.

 

Einstien articulates it beautifully in many quotes on this site, and he was a brilliant man of science.

http://www.simpletoremember.com/articles/a/einstein/

 

I see the similarities of the underlying message throughout all religion and "spirituality". It's almost like the same message has been trying to be kept alive since the beginning of time, to keep that light of hope, love and truth alive of the divine plan and what we could co create by collectively connecting to the universal energy source of love and life, God.

Both avenues help teach us about different morals and values to strive for (even for no other reason than to strive to be a decent human being) It also teaches us about the strife that evil doings, greed, judgement and jealousy brings, that always leads to destruction.

People compare the similarities of different religions and say they just 'repackage' the same story as a way of gaining more control over people. Whist groups have definitely taken advantage of and infiltrated churches and religion for this reason, what if that is also the reason the same 'repackaged ' message, pattern, clues and signs throughout history keep being repeated?

What if it is the same story being taught by several wise spiritual messengers (or one avatar spirit reincarnating throughout different ages ) simpy trying to lead humanity back to God's divine plan of love, peace and unity, knowing that as our consciousness evolves and our understanding and awareness grows we could one day achieve this global dream, of remembering we already are that.

 

There must be power in these words and teachings to persecute messengers of peace and destroy truth and beauty to keep us disconnected and divided. To me its all just a message of love, and you don't need science to prove the power of love, you just have to be open to accepting love in all its glory and the rest will take care of itself.

 

I am new to all the Religion side of things though, and my own awareness is always limited to my current knowledge gained up to this point of my life.

Edited November 12, 2015 by UnitedLove

[JosephM]

UnitedLove,

 

Thanks for those einstein quotes link and a warm welcome. Enjoyed reading your 7 posts..

 

Joseph

[soma]

UnitedLove, I think we are on the same frequency or at least have the same perspective. In my writings I have been quoting Nikola Tesla a lot too. I love this thread, Einstein resource and your comments.

 

One paragraph I wrote, which is on this topic. The scientist and the mystics have discovered that the mind is a well-designed system of the body that is perceived as separate, but in their advanced systems they have perceived a unity in consciousness. The same molecules, elements and atoms found in the body and brain are also found in the external world, but many people are attracted to the concrete existence dominated by a material representation instead of the subtle consciousness within and without. The five senses have a very strong attraction to the physical concept of life where people identify as the body and mind, not as the soul where subtle energy is connected as an integral part of the whole. It doesn’t matter if we go from the energy at a low frequency or from the elevated energy inside our consciousness because it is all connected in an ocean of pure energy. We are all a mixture of the subtle and gross energies in one energy vibrating at different frequencies as the inventor Nikola Tesla said, “If you want to find the secrets of the universe, think in terms of energy, frequency and vibration.”