Hi - What Is True - Living Cristianity?

[Elen1107]

Hi,

I'm new to this site - just joined today.

I'm looking for a sense of Christianity that isn't bogged down with a lot of negativity and doom.

I've done quite a bit of research, study and inquiry. My biggest question and conflict is about being instructed to believe in a God that requires and/or approves of a human sacrifice and/or torture - for the forgiveness of sins or for any other reason - or that of his son or anyone else. (Even if someone is one's son, that still is not their life to give.)

Is there any way to make sense of or have positive feelings about this kind of understanding/vision of who and what God is?

I have a few takes on how this kind of interpretation came about and how it got into the bible, like that it's really early Roman paganism, or that it was set up to stop people from making human sacrifices - Christ being the last sacrifice and all that. But to understand it as who God really is... it really bothers and confuses me.

I keep coming back to the fact that the earliest Christians did not have a book, they did not have a set doctrine and they did not have a New Testament. But they did have something even more powerful - an enlightening, mind opening, transcending experience. One that changed their ideas, their priorities and their lives. These people actually witnessed eternity and entered into God and the kingdom/providence of heaven.

They may have had no sense that this was to be understood as a human sacrifice ordained and approved of by God, or that sheading blood could ever remove sin.

 

Thanks for reading

[JosephM]

Greeting Elen and welcome to the forum. It seems to me the understanding you expressed in the above post is common among members here. Even though the church may teach differently, as you, i believe the earliest Christians had little if any access to written texts that now appear as the New Testament. Progressive Christianity to me is not about doctrines and rituals but more of a journey and as you say something "even more powerful - an enlightening, mind opening, transcending experience" . When we strip all the programming and teaching falsehoods of the Christian church system that have been propagated over the years by using our logic, reason and study, we make room for a genuine experience and a clearer understanding of why such interpretations have transpired that only mask the real thing.

 

Again welcome and i look forward to your input and sharing ,

Joseph

[Elen1107]

Hi Joseph,

Thanks for your input and support. It is really good to know that I'm not too alone in this/these perspectives. In a way that is just as hard, and sometimes harder than dealing with and resolving or coming to terms with the conflicts in the first place.

 

Since I wrote the above statement I've been thinking that the Roman network in those days stretched as far as Druid and other pagan/druidish territories. It is known that the Druids did practice human sacrifice. Also parts of Africa possibly did as they seem to have up until fairly recent times. The Old Testaments clearly show the practice of animal sacrifice and the "letting out of blood" for the forgiveness of sin/wrong doing, and some traces of this still exist in the Islamic world.

 

As far as animal sacrifice is concerned, this could have come about from a combination of reasons. One is the thinning out of the herds - making sure the herd population did not exceed what the land could support. Another is the supporting and feeding of the priests. Another could be that people were expected to give up something real and of value when they did something wrong. This would serve as a true repentance and as a notable deterrent from further wrong doing.

 

Concerning human sacrifice; as abhorrent as it may sound this may in some cases originally stem from a need to limit the size of the human population in various regions. A people has/had a given territory and resources that they must live in relation to. The alternative would be war and infighting. In a certain perspective this may have seemed like a less violent and less hideous alternative. Then in the course of time and acceptance it got shrouded in ideas like the will of "god", and that those people who were sacrificed or who sacrificed themselves, were shrouded with some kind of sainthood and eternal presence. I don't know if this all is true, or how true it is, but it could have something to do with the roots of how things got so mixed up in the first place.

 

You write about the "programming and teaching falsehoods of the Christian church system". This has and does cause a great deal of pain and conflict for me. I find that since I found Christ - that is became a Christian, there has been as much conflict and struggle as hope and positive faith, perhaps more. It's not because I find being a "good Christian" that hard to do, though that does have it's challenges and positive steps to take. It's because of things like this, what one might call gross misunderstandings of the Christian message and twisted or false doctrine. That these are present in the "Holy Bible" and the New Testament, is a really painful, mind boggling and confusing thing.

 

Thanks for reading and being supportive. Walking these roads alone is incredibly difficult.

 

Thanks Again

 

E

[PaulS]

Welcome Elen,

 

I think it might have been Spong or Borg that write about understanding Jesus through the eyes of the Jewish tradition and that as Christianity moved further away from Israel people had less understanding of the teachings in a Jewish context, and began to relate to the teachings from their own context. I think this is where taking Jesus' death as a sacrifice to God began to creep in and take on the 'substitutionary atonement' meaning.

 

I look forward to your participation here and hope you find this community a beneficial place.

 

Cheers

Paul

[Elen1107]

Hi Paul,

 

Thanks for your Welcome, reply and input. I love the Marianne Williamson quote that you have as part of your signature, I've read it a few times in the past two days since I've been a member at this site.

 

I just saw a Spong video today where he talks about how the gospels were written as Jewish liturgy, and that Jesus was placed in the position of the Yom Kippur lamb who was actually an intercessor between the people and God. It seems that people often need to replace their old religious ideas and symbols with new ones that follow in close parallel and with similar structures.

 

The other, similar mind bender that I get from the bible is where God supposedly commands Abraham to tie up and hold a knife over his son and then tells him not to kill the child at the last minute. This is felony child abuse and terrorism, and as Spong would say, "not a god that I would choose to believe in." I keep thinking that if anything like this really did happen, that it might have really been a goat/kid that Abraham was given to sacrifice. With out this goat possibly Abraham could not have supported another child, so it proved to God that he really loved him and proved to his son that he loved him too and that he was not replaceable. Somehow this got twisted through time and tradition into being a child instead of a kid goat, possibly because of economic strife or wars.

 

Regardless, I do believe that Jesus is still alive. Whether he "died" on the cross or not, and why are 2 other questions altogether.

 

Thanks for reading

 

Cheers and Good Day

 

E

[JosephM]

E,

 

Here is an educational paper on "Sacrifices in Ancient Cultures" you might find interesting. ---> HERE

 

Joseph

[Elen1107]

Hi Joseph,

 

Thanks for the link.

 

I just don't understand what this stuff is doing bouncing around in modern day Christianity.

 

I kind of feel like that if a person really believes in this stuff, - that is in a God that requires, arranges and approves of a human life and blood sacrifice, and that of Es son at that... This could make the believers mentally ill and even possibly lead to psychosis. It's not like there's no harm done and everything's fine.

 

I kind of feel like this stuff an a few other things ruins and corrupts the entire bible and the whole Christ story. This is really hard to deal with.

 

Thanks again for reading

[soma]

Elen I feel we can have the same experience with God as Jacob, Abraham, John, Peter and Mary. I think the stories are methology describing the experience and not the literal reality. The experience itself matches up with the stories and myths of all religions, it is only the stories that change.

[Elen1107]

Hi Soma,

 

Thanks for the reply. I agree with you that we can have the same or similar experiences of God as many of these spiritual and God centered people.

 

I take it from your post where it says “methology” you mean mythology and that you think that this part of the traditional Christian story is a myth. Maybe I do too.

 

I think I just have to come to terms with the fact that for at least right now anyways, I just have to say that I just don’t get, don’t understand and frankly don’t do this part of the Christian religious story. That is that I just plain skip it. There is a piece of Islamic philosophy that says that Jesus was never crucified. I very much would like to believe this version of the Christ story and that he became eternal by some other means. By his spirit, his insights, his being and nature being full of pure, un-darkened love.

 

I sometimes wonder if the crucifixion was a story made up by some Christians in order to protect His identity and hide him from those who were out to get him.

 

As an added note crucifixion could also be spelt: cruci-fiction, which kinda in a funny way points to it being a fiction.

 

Thanks for reading

[PaulS]

I think the God portrayed in the Old Testament is a tribal God of the Israelites. I think like other cultures, they had 'their' God to explain 'their' story. Their God suited their culture of the time with God being a 'King', a 'Warrior', a 'Man' - all of these ways of understanding God came from the culture of the day.

 

I think people who take the bible literally have to somehow make these old stories 'fit' to feel secure in their religion. How else could one celebrate a God who orders a people to commit acts of genocide right down to the last baby, infant, child, even animal! This God himself is justified committing genocide via the Flood based on the notion that the 'world' was evil (all bar Noah etc). But this would mean again that every baby, infant & child was also evil. Really?

 

There are a lot of things over the last several thousand years that we have done away with, but there are some that we are still clinging too (homophobia, racism, animal cruelty, etc). I think we are evolving as a species and our morals and values will continue to change.

[Elen1107]

Paul

Does hanging on to some of these dysfunctional ideas and concepts curtail and impede our natural and even God centered or directed evolution? Do they make us stop growing and evolving?

[PaulS]

I personally think it can. For instance, hanging on to ideas that homosexual love is 'evil' does nothing to helps us grow into acceptance and love for all. Dare I say we will never have peace until we stop judging others as 'wrong'.

 

I like Ben Harper's words from his song Burn One Down here -

"My choice is what i chose to do;
and if I'm causin no harm,
it shouldn't bother you.
Your choice is who you chose to be;
and if your causin NO harm, then your alright with me.

 

Similarly, our ideas of justice can be warped if we believe in an ultimate judge being justified in sentencing somebody to eternal pain and misery. If people accept that as a fair and reasonable thing to do, then who knows where to draw the line on what is fair and reasonable!

 

I think evolution has taken plenty of dead ends and wrong turns, so always moving forward doesn't seem to be natural necessarily in the short term, but ultimately the end result is what wins out in evolution.

Edited October 16, 2014 by PaulS

[JosephM]

Paul

Does hanging on to some of these dysfunctional ideas and concepts curtail and impede our natural and even God centered or directed evolution? Do they make us stop growing and evolving?

 

E,

 

While i would agree that these are dysfunctional ideas and concepts........ i am of the persuasion that they are a natural part of our evolution of consciousness and even necessary. In the scheme of things i would say it could not be otherwise.

 

I would not be too emotionally moved ..... either God, Reality, Being, The Universes, whatever Name you want to use has an order or not. As Paul in the New Testament writes to the Ephesians. "That in the dispensation of the fulness of times, he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth, even in him: " (my emphasis on all)

 

Joseph

 

PS If there be such a thing as a Master Will or Order..... it will certainly be accomplished in this dramatic dance.

But this is your introduction thread so if any would disagree here i withdraw my comments. So glad you are taking an active role in this forum.

Edited October 14, 2014 by JosephM
add PS

[soma]

Elen thanks for catching my spelling error and I like the way you play with words. The apostles and disciples at that time followed Jesus without a need for a crucifixtion or a resurrection because the experience was enough. I don't care if it happened or not, but I use the symbol of his crucifixtion as a model of the great love he possessed to propell me into that zone.

[Elen1107]

Hi, just my luck on the one day that I get the most replies, I can’t get on line, my car needs some fix up and I have a cold. Apologies that it’s taken me a while to reply in return.

 

Kinda in response to everyone’s recent posts, I gotta say that I perty much believe in Christ as the completion or accumulation or epitome of human evolution, possibly maybe even Gods first fully evolved child, but I don’t know about these concepts exactly or if they are only 80% true or something like that. Part of the benefit of a web board like this is the opportunity to put a few ideas out there and then through the correspondence try to get to the bottom (or top) of whether they are true or not. Obviously with some of these ideas I’m just doing the best I can with what I’ve got to work with and my understanding of things.

 

Paul, you mention homosexuality and also eternal pain in judgment.

There’s something about homosexuality that I don’t quite understand, but then I don’t understand why people eat bubblegum flavored ice cream or hot spicy foods either, so I figure my not quite getting it is perty much like the same kind of thing. However if someone were to try to legislate taking bubblegum ice-cream or hot sauce off of the menus I would very much be on the side of the bubblegummers and hotsaucers even if I would choose not to try these foods. If people want to talk about the right and wrong of things, at least gay people are not making unwanted babies and leaving them neglected or abandoned and painfully emotionally injured all over the place. That’s a good deal more wrong than anything I can see any gay people doing, (where I sometimes get into the right and wrong of things is about whether people are making a real commitment or not or if people are abusing other people’s feelings, and I don’t think that this is in any way preference specific.) I have a friend who says that homosexuality is Gods answer to over population, if this is true then we all should celebrate it and them.

 

When it comes down to eternal pain and judgment, I got to admit that it’s something I don’t think about too much. If I do sometimes wonder if this kind of thing exists at all then I’ve gotta think that it’s really only for people who do things that are really, really, really wrong, like mass genocide, serial murder rape and torture or some of the other really, really heinous things that we sometimes hear about. I’ve sometimes wondered that if a person is really incredibly wrong and awful, horrible and hideous then maybe they do have to go through some kind of something until they “get it” that you don’t ever do these things. At the same time I think that in a way time does end at a point and “hell” can only exist till the end of time, so in the long, long, long run of things, everyone really does “get out”. The thing is though, to not take the long/ wrong way home, cause at some point along that road one is gonna really, seriously regret it and wish they didn’t. Like I say I really don’t think about this stuff too much so if my thoughts are a bit sketchy and I sound like I’m not completely sure if I even believe in them myself this is why. It’s just ideas that I’ve “played with” from time to time. PS- Paul you might want to check the spelling in the poem you’ve shared, I think that one of the words may have made the meaning come out more to the opposite of what it’s meant to say. Thanks

 

 

I’m kinda short on time and long-drawn out with this flue/cold thing I have (even this post sounds groggy to me), so I’ll have to respond to Josephs and Somas posts later. Thanks everyone for corresponding, I’m hoping that this all can be a real good thing. Thanks and Laters - E

 

[Elen1107]

Hi, it’s me again

 

Joseph, where you say:

 

“While i would agree that these are dysfunctional ideas and concepts........ i am of the persuasion that they are a natural part of our evolution of consciousness and even necessary. In the scheme of things i would say it could not be otherwise.”

 

Is what you’re saying is that we have to learn to decipher and discern the wheat from the shaft so to speak with these ideas, and even if they are written into and structured in and around our most sacred documents and important spiritual belief systems? – I’m thinking this would be a really big, serious and important step in the flow of human mental and spiritual evolution. Especially at this point in time and history.

 

 

I have some ideas that Jesus himself, between the ages of like 13 and 30 traveled all over the known world, (and possibly beyond), learning from everyone and everything that was out there, and then did something very much like this. Separated the wheat from the shaft or the truth from the fiction and the dysfunctional in ideas, theory and practice from those that are really true, worthwhile and of real and sure value. This is part of what makes him such a very special person, his ability to understand decipher and sort through things. [it also makes him a bit more like everybody else and makes what he taught the gathering, diciphering and cummulation of many different cultural belief systems, which I think could very much be a good thing]. I could elaborate more on this, but perhaps it’s better to wait and start a different thread. I’ve gotten a lot of this understanding from a video called “The Unknown Jesus”, I think it’s put out by A&E as well as from other sources. There’s even a page on Wikipedia that ties in with this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unknown_years_of_Jesus

 

 

 

I really like what you said:

 

“As Paul in the New Testament writes to the Ephesians. "That in the dispensation of the fulness of times, he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth, even in him: " (my emphasis on all)”

 

This really makes it sound like all this struggle is really happening in the natural or divine order of things, and that it’s something that we as people have to learn to do, be aware of and stay on top of, - which is what you’ve said yourself in your post.

 

 

I’m really liking what you said:

 

“If there be such a thing as a Master Will or Order..... it will certainly be accomplished in this dramatic dance.”

 

Seeing it as a “dramatic dance” feels and computes a lot better than “what the b*x!* b*x! h*#! is going on here and all over the place, anyways!

 

Where I get tripped up is that, I have to live in this world – which means that I have to live in a world where all this dysfunction is going on,… and some of it is really mean, mean dysfunction. Both other people and myself are really being hurt by all this cr*#!p It’s even killing people and torturing them both psychologically and physically – so hanging back and saying that it’s all in the natural order of things – kind of feels like a lazy or lackadaisical way out for me.

 

This may or may not be the only life we have, but regardless this is real time and real life times that are being spent in pain and agony and confusion.

 

Where you talk about this being my introduction thread, I’m kind of not so glad that I’ve presented this particular problem/conundrum as part of my intro. Maybe I somehow needed to say that there are problems here and with traditional doctrine or at least with the way that traditional doctrine is understood. I’m rather wishing that I had intro-ed with some other idea(s) but here I am with it and here we are.

 

 

Since I’ve written some of this thread, I’ve actually, for a little bit, thought of trying on, so to speak, some of the traditional outlooks regarding this kind of thing. Not that God actually ordained and required this sort of thing, or that people or a particular person needed to be tortured and sacrificed to God to make God happy and bloodthirsty satisfied with everything and with all of us… But that maybe in the cosmic dysfunctional order of things, that to break the seal or the tie between sin and death, somebody had to do something perty extreme and even downright drastic. [biblically sin is equated as if it is death itself and goodness as life and life itself, regardless of physical life and death; at least it is in the New Testament.] This has nothing to do with God, or what God needs and requires of humanity and so forth. It has to do with how messed up and dysfunctional we are as people, and that maybe somehow in the cosmic mixed-up, dysfunctional chemistry of things that sin or evil (doing) is somehow tied to blood and the chemistry in our bodies and spirits – right now this seems perty farfetched to me, and even a good bit “out there” and weird, but I’m looking at the ideas there anyways. We are too often too much out of balance with God and the way things really should be or ought to be. For me to just dismiss some longstanding and hard held tradition, outright and just like that, without giving it any thoughts or consideration what so ever, is a bit unconscientious.

Right now I’m actually too scared to actually “try on” this perspective, so to speak. It’s too much like sending my thinking and inside being in two very extremely different directions at once, and frankly I just plain hate this part, (the crucifixion, the ridiculation and the “flagellation” that is.) (“Do not delight in what is evil, but rejoice in what is good”, Paul of Tarsus – it’s a choice - … and I think the crucifixion was perty dang awful). Thing is that this would get us all into the Adam and Eve type thing and that Adam evolved independently as a species, and I’m sorry one gender and one gender only does not make a species in my book, at least not with the more sophisticated and complex life forms. It also makes people responsible for what their earliest ancestors did, I don’t believe that people are responsible for what their actual, one generation earlier, parents have done,… which is express quite eloquently in Ezekiel, I believe, so how could we be resposible for what these two people did back at the beginings of all human existance.

 

Where I’ve gotten hung up, or what has been a real lynch pin has been for me, is that I really want a complete and intact sacred document or book. Sometimes I actually feel like I need one. I guess it’s perty obvious from this that I’m trying to dig or find my way out in two directions at once or in any direction that works. I really hope to put the truth first and get to the bottom or top of this numb-drum, and actually get somewhere in my thinking and understanding of these things and maybe have something to offer to others in the process or the conclusions of the whole thing.

 

 

Thanks for reading all this. – I think I’m kind of writhing so much because I haven’t had many people or places to express ideas on this/these subjects,… and this is the overflow… - Also for anyone reading, even though this post has been directed mostly to Joseph, because of the turns and ideas he’s placed in the dialog – I’m hoping that anyone who wants to respond or reply will feel free and comfortable in doing so. I’m kind of figuring that that’s the way this post board works – maybe unless someone specifically says differently. Hopefully this is how we can actually get somewhere in having a sane sense of understanding about the entirety of the Christ story, and get more to the truth in the tradition(s) and/or without them.

[Elen1107]

Hi soma,

 

Thanks for being ok about the spelling thing. I’m figuring that we are all here to help each other out and where we differ or have a disagreement or even a bit of something to say about spelling, it’s all for mutual enlightenment and edification for everyone. At first I actually thought you were using a word that I didn’t know the meaning of, till I looked it up in Word and found out there was no such word. Then I figured you must have meant ‘mythology’.

 

What I sometimes get from the whole flagellation, ridicule and crucifixion part of the Christ story is that here is this man that is put in the most defamed, most slandered, most ridiculed, most crushed and cursed position that a person possibly could have been put in in those days, and probably any other day. As it stands and turns out, this man was and is the most together, the most knowing, the most in knowing what he was doing, the best of the bestest in terms of intellect, emotional health and spiritual enlightenment and even much, much, much more.

 

What it has said to me is that what is made of a person, or how a person is made to appear by others and also group-think or opinion can sometimes be extremely wrong and even the opposite of what really is the truth. Christ himself is quoted as saying, “Do not judge people by their appearance, but by their fruit.” {don’t know if I really know what ‘fruit’ means here in this context}.

Also that he was able to endure all this and still perty much know who he is/was, is perty amazing and astounding to me.

 

That Jesus was and is full of love is kind of an understatement and is really, really hard for me to put into words. It’s this Love that made Him eternal, pure love enhances and changes his/one’s own chemistry and energy so much that there’s literally no end to it, this, them and Him. When Paul says, “Love is eternal” he’s saying something really amazing, profound and intensely true and beautiful here.

I had a conversation with a friend recently about how nothing harmful can be eternal - I'm thinking that it's this Love that does this, that makes it so and that keeps everyone and everything from being harmful and/or being in and of harmful stuff.

 

Thanks for reading

 

[PaulS]

Thanks Elen,

 

You're dead right, I had turned Ben Harper's song into one of support for harming others! I have since corrected the word. Thanks.

 

I think homosexuality is difficult for many to 'get' but I don't think that's so strange considering on average only 5% of humankind are homosexually oriented. Being gay definitely isn't the 'norm' so to speak when it comes to human sexuality on a statistical basis. I think the best way to understand homosexuality is that if a couple love or are drawn to one another (same sex or opposite sex) and that's who they want to be intimate with, then who cares, go for it. Again, if they're not harming anybody else (including their partner) then they're alright with me.

 

The main question I have for any Christian that supports an eternal Hell is how does that fit into God's desire for forgiveness? Jesus isn't quoted as qualifying when to forgive, or whether to forgive only to a certain %. For him, forgiveness seemed to be 100%, at all times, no matter what. So to 'believe' or support the contrary seems to fly in the face of Jesus' message (IMO) and I think one has to play mind games to bend and twist this to make this fit.

 

Your thoughts on 'some' sort of punishment, perhaps 'corrective' punishment, seem more logical to me than eternal, non-redemptive punishment.

 

Cheers

Paul

[soma]

I feel Hell and Heaven are on the physical plane and we choose where we want to go with our thoughts. Hell is for Christians with hellish thoughts. On the material path we have to release and allow ourselves to return to our high state of being by changing our point of view from the mind to the soul. In a soul perspective we will still have the expected problems of life, but these obstacles become the starting place to develop our patience, harmony and compassion so we can come across our inner wisdom and love. We can guide our considerations to be more upbeat and optimistic or we can tolerate negative thoughts and their disruptions so we can investigate and change them. We do not have to accept the thoughts that run through our minds and can challenge the negative ones before they make the present state of affairs unpleasant and unhealthy. If we don’t like our situation, we can change it by changing our thoughts. The thoughts we think are emitted from our being and they do not return empty handed, but return immersed with the same vibration that they were emitted with originally either positive or negative. We are responsible for the energy that leaves our mental and physical constitution because the vibrations will cause either joy or pain. Energy leaving with love will create health and enjoyment while energy leaving with dread will create negative, unhealthy feelings. Healing comes into being when we become aware of the emotions and thoughts we are concealing or emitting either negative or positive and we decide to restore a healthy atmosphere in ourselves and in the natural world. Negative emotions will continue to come into our experience until we acknowledge them and respond to their message if not they will come again and again with the same lesson. In the energy world where we exist with so many different vibrations around us, we will benefit looking into the unseen energies and how they affect us and others. Even the negative vibrations and emotions are good because our salvation from them comes when we become aware of them and they come undone so we are free at last. Heaven on earth or Hell is our choice, but I don't think it last forever. Positive and negative are in Ethernity because everything is in the infinite even what is temporary the finite is in the infinite, but that does mean a finite being last forever unless they rise to the occasion and realize they are part of the ocean of Infinite possibilities of positive and negative energy that is constantly changing so their is duality in unity.

[Elen1107]

Hi Paul,

 

I’m finally having the time to give a reply to your last post, #18, to me above.

 

I gotta say that the pin in my side about the gay - straight thing is that I don’t care too much to be labeled with the word straight for some apparent reason. Can’t the gay people come up with something else to call us? It also kind of implies that we are somehow not really happy, gay being a synonym for happy and all that. Even with a person whose personal life is not necessarily active or that active, a person can still be happy in other, I have to say very real and enjoyable and enlightening ways. All this being said I guess that “straight” is perhaps not all that bad and even does have some positive connotations. But I still have to think about this.

 

 

About the heaven and hell thing. I’m kinnda like not so happy that I even said that I thought that there might be a hell, or even something like that. Yuck, I don’t like that idea/concept at all.

 

Where I’ve been really tripped up by forgiveness and unconditional forgiveness and all that; is that I’ve been stuck in situations where a person having just done something very wrong, to me, and at me ,and on me; When I try to contest this behavior at all, then comes at me demanding and in effect forcing my forgiveness. This, with no apology, no admittance, no restitution what so even and with no intention of even maybe changing his act and/or his way of doing things. This can go on for only so many decades before I finally say, “forget it, you’re not forgiven” or “take it up with God” or even, “Even God has Es’ limits”. A person can only take so much of some things before they are unable to forgive whether they want to or not.

 

It’s this and similar scenarios that make me think that without some sort of admittance, apology, restitution and changing of one’s ways, (in proportion to what was done of course), that maybe then, as Jesus is quoted as saying “you don’t get out”... Or don't "get out" just like that with no even half a half a thought about it.

 

The following is from Matthew and is from the Sermon on the Mount:

23“Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother or sister has something against you, 24leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to them; then come and offer your gift. 25“Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still together on the way, or your adversary may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26Truly I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.

http://biblehub.com/matthew/5-23.htm

http://biblehub.com/matthew/5-26.htm

http://biblehub.com/niv/matthew/5.htm

 

So divine and unconditional forgiveness is there, but in fact a person might need to do something sometimes.

 

In fact these situations are sometimes an opportunity for being able to make things right. I kind of figure that if I offer a full and complete apology (in proportion to whatever I have done wrong), (and make whatever restitution, admittance and changes I need to make, and actually create a new bunch or bit of a track record that at least somewhat balances out my old one), then if a person can’t or won’t forgive me, well, then, that’s on them. What I’ve done is not on them, but their unwillingness to forgive is. This kind of thing frees people from having to live with an elephant or an alligator or even a terrordactdile in the living room so to speak. So to me, that means it really is a positive opportunity, because living with these things can become a kind of hell in their own right.

 

I could go on a good deal more about this subject, and even show that I’m really not so much of a hard liner regarding this subject; but my time restraints and interest in keeping my posts a bit shorter advise me to stop here.

 

I hope that you are doing well and that things are on the ok-s between you and me

 

E.

[PaulS]

I gotta say that the pin in my side about the gay - straight thing is that I don’t care too much to be labeled with the word straight for some apparent reason. Can’t the gay people come up with something else to call us? It also kind of implies that we are somehow not really happy, gay being a synonym for happy and all that. Even with a person whose personal life is not necessarily active or that active, a person can still be happy in other, I have to say very real and enjoyable and enlightening ways. All this being said I guess that “straight” is perhaps not all that bad and even does have some positive connotations. But I still have to think about this.

I think it's important to remember that labels are for human convenience, but that they rarely ever represent every single situation accurately. Also, I don't reckon we need to take them too seriously or else we might get bothered. I mean I alone carry several different labels - straight, white, WASP (white anglo saxon protestant), Australian, male - all of which represent other people too, who sometimes I have little in common with.

Where I’ve been really tripped up by forgiveness and unconditional forgiveness and all that; is that I’ve been stuck in situations where a person having just done something very wrong, to me, and at me ,and on me; When I try to contest this behavior at all, then comes at me demanding and in effect forcing my forgiveness. This, with no apology, no admittance, no restitution what so even and with no intention of even maybe changing his act and/or his way of doing things. This can go on for only so many decades before I finally say, “forget it, you’re not forgiven” or “take it up with God” or even, “Even God has Es’ limits”. A person can only take so much of some things before they are unable to forgive whether they want to or not.

It’s this and similar scenarios that make me think that without some sort of admittance, apology, restitution and changing of one’s ways, (in proportion to what was done of course), that maybe then, as Jesus is quoted as saying “you don’t get out”... Or don't "get out" just like that with no even half a half a thought about it.

The following is from Matthew and is from the Sermon on the Mount:

23“Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother or sister has something against you, 24leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to them; then come and offer your gift. 25“Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still together on the way, or your adversary may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26Truly I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.

http://biblehub.com/matthew/5-23.htm

http://biblehub.com/matthew/5-26.htm

http://biblehub.com/niv/matthew/5.htm

So divine and unconditional forgiveness is there, but in fact a person might need to do something sometimes.

In fact these situations are sometimes an opportunity for being able to make things right. I kind of figure that if I offer a full and complete apology (in proportion to whatever I have done wrong), (and make whatever restitution, admittance and changes I need to make, and actually create a new bunch or bit of a track record that at least somewhat balances out my old one), then if a person can’t or won’t forgive me, well, then, that’s on them. What I’ve done is not on them, but their unwillingness to forgive is. This kind of thing frees people from having to live with an elephant or an alligator or even a terrordactdile in the living room so to speak. So to me, that means it really is a positive opportunity, because living with these things can become a kind of hell in their own right.

I could go on a good deal more about this subject, and even show that I’m really not so much of a hard liner regarding this subject; but my time restraints and interest in keeping my posts a bit shorter advise me to stop here.

I think the forgiveness thing has many different angles, including the difficulty in forgiving sometimes (and I'm in the camp that sometimes we are okay with not forgiving). But where we don't forgive, I think it is important that we are still able to let it go, whatever 'it' is. I think forgiveness in that sense helps people.

I hope that you are doing well and that things are on the ok-s between you and me

You and I are all good, E. I'm trying to track done a previous post by you concerning you being a New Yorker or something in order to respond, but know that I have no problems with what you are posting at all. I am very happy for people to hold opinions different to me and I don't judge them for it. I enjoy debate and discussion, and like I said I may sometimes push my point too hard (but I am trying to be more aware of that), but all in all unless somebody is rude or abusive, I have no issue with them here.

Cheers

Paul

Edited October 20, 2014 by PaulS

[Elen1107]

Thanks Paul,

I'm short on time and energy so I'm just going to say thanks.

Cheers

E.