glintofpewter Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 I think there are spiritual/psychological practices that enhance one's "freedom" in willing an action Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephM Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 (edited) Perhaps 'something new' comes from 'free will' or choice but the minor contentions seems to me to be just how 'free' or limited that which we identify as 'my' will/choice really is. From the perspective of the whole is it free enough to be labeled individual 'free will'? Most great insights for the 'new' or change, in my experience, come from beyond what seems to be 'me' or my own self (although i would like to take credit ). While it seems to me the new does comes out of the process of evolution that process seems to me to be beyond the individual will negating it to me to be truly free. Or perhaps Not ? How can i say for certain? Joseph PS Perhaps, in my view, 'free will' could be best defined as ..... Not free from influences, but free to make intelligent choices. (Peter Voss) Edited August 3, 2014 by JosephM ADDED PS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glintofpewter Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 PS Perhaps, in my view, 'free will' could be best defined as ..... Not free from influences, but free to make intelligent choices. (Peter Voss) I certainly agree with that. Do the evolutionary processes lie within the boundaries of the beyond or are they co-extensive with that beyond. Are all the ideas about what is to come already present in the beyond? Or does what is now have an influenced but undetermined future? Dutch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 (edited) If the universe is one and acting exactly how it's meant to act, then my logic suggests that all the 'evil' things that are happening are meant to happen. Cruelty, hate, war, paedophilia, crime, racism, homophobia, etc etc, are all the universe at work aren't they? Why see the universe acting exactly how it's meant to act and is at work? Is a tree growing in the woods at work? Edited August 3, 2014 by Larry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephM Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 Dutch said... Do the evolutionary processes lie within the boundaries of the beyond or are they co-extensive with that beyond. Are all the ideas about what is to come already present in the beyond? Or does what is now have an influenced but undetermined future? Good questions Dutch, I cannot say. I can only suppose they are coextensive with that beyond I also suppose that as far as we can see what is now has an influence but undetermined future. Yet, on a deep level, i count the future as hypothetical with no real existence in reality. Joseph Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glintofpewter Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 i count the future as hypothetical with no real existence in reality. Yes, but I disagree that's ok. I would say that the future is 'hypothetical' and however unrealized its potential is part of our reality. Dutch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soma Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 Here is a hypothetical. I think I have free will over the energy in my system, but realize that I am influenced by the energy of everything else especially the sun. Then I realize that a bigger system, a hypothetical Black Hole is infulencing the sun drawing it in with its greater force. Now, back to me. I think I chose my path that is different and unique, but realize everyone sees a path of light to the sun so they are different, but going to the same place. I think I chose this path and was attracted to it, but then I realize the Black Hole is pulling me and everything else in its range of influence to it, if I like it or not. So what to do? Good thing my path has led me to the decision to learn how to surf the wave. It taught me this by crashing me, turning me upside down and side ways with its force. That is what I get for trying to change the whole scheme of things, I can't but I can maneuver, accept the force, observe and enjoy the ride. Yes, I can fall off the board, but I can get back on and change the direction on the wave I caught or can catch another one. In the beginning I paddled like hell to catch the wave, but realized the wave caught me so I have nothing to do, but enjoy the ride. Yes, I have to be sensitive to the forces in the wave and adjust or will be thrown off again, but that is part of the fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glintofpewter Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 soma, I always enjoy reading what you write. My notebook contains more than few of your words. Dutch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romansh Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 (edited) PS Perhaps, in my view, 'free will' could be best defined as ..... Not free from influences, but free to make intelligent choices. (Peter Voss) Kant thought of this as a wretched subterfuge and James described it as a quagmire of evasion. We can define free will however we want .... Eg the ability to choose not to eat ice-cream . This has nothing to do with the underlying question of what the discussion around free will (for philosophers) is all about. ... What are the underlying causes for our ability to make choices and can we ever be free of them? Edited August 4, 2014 by romansh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romansh Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 (edited) Is willing something new not the same as having free will? Dutch No, or at least not for me. Firstly my personal experience, when I think of something new, I find it is a mixture of other ideas, sometimes I can point to the origins of the ideas sometimes I can't. Just because I can't point to the origin does not mean there isn't one and we are still silent on the chemistry and physics that went into forming the idea. Edited August 4, 2014 by romansh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glintofpewter Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 (edited) romansh What are the underlying causes for our ability to make choices and can we ever be free of them? Is this an absolute? Is the question do we or don't we have free will? we are still silent on the chemistry and physics that went into forming the idea. Do these carry any more weight than the influences we have been talking about? How is choice different than free will? Edited August 4, 2014 by glintofpewter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephM Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 Kant thought of this as a wretched subterfuge and James described it as a quagmire of evasion. We can define free will however we want .... Eg the ability to choose not to eat ice-cream . This has nothing to do with the underlying question of what the discussion around free will (for philosophers) is all about. ... What are the underlying causes for our ability to make choices and can we ever be free of them? Rom, Good for Kant and James. Myself, i think that neither kant nor James has a corner on the definition and while i, as you may know, from past posts do not 'see' such a concept as 'free will" being truly "free" , i have no objection to the use of the words as defined by others within an understanding of what they mean and where they are coming from. Peace, Joseph Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romansh Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 Rom, Good for Kant and James. Myself, i think that neither kant nor James has a corner on the definition and while i, as you may know, from past posts do not 'see' such a concept as 'free will" being truly "free" , i have no objection to the use of the words as defined by others within an understanding of what they mean and where they are coming from. Peace, Joseph Yes we can define free will however we want. The problem of cause and effect does not go away though does it? If people want to see choice as free will, then I think they are missing out on an exploration of our reality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romansh Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 romansh Is this an absolute? Is the question do we or don't we have free will? Do these carry any more weight than the influences we have been talking about? How is choice different than free will? It's more of a question does the concept of free will even make sense? Rivers choose their course, computers make choices based on their input. The list goes on. When philosophers discuss free will it is very different to having the ability to choose. The question is are our choices independent of cause and effect? If you think only certain combinations of molecules have free will, fine. Do Kant and James carry more weight, they believed in free will? They could see the inherent contradiction in the compatibilist position. The influences we are talking about, are they some way independent of chemistry and physics? I think not, what do you think Dutch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glintofpewter Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 (edited) If people want to see choice as free will, then I think they are missing out on an exploration of our reality. I realize that choice is a flatter and poorer word than free will but this seems like the distinction between apophatic and cataphatic theologies. What free will is not vs what free will is, The question is are our choices independent of cause and effect? Why not say there is no free will? That all choices - including which way to lean on the board as we surf - are influenced. Period. Give me another beer. Rivers choose their course, computers make choices based on their input. I would not imply intent in either example. Perhaps you have used choice with a less strict meaning that you are requiring of 'free will" Yet "rivers choose their course" catches my attention but I want to keep a discussion of intent and meaning separate from this is discussion of free will. Dutch Edited August 5, 2014 by glintofpewter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephM Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 Yes we can define free will however we want. The problem of cause and effect does not go away though does it? If people want to see choice as free will, then I think they are missing out on an exploration of our reality. No it doesn't in my view. As far as those who see choice as free will missing out on an exploration of our reality.... perhaps that is a dubious assumption? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glintofpewter Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 If you think only certain combinations of molecules have free will, fine. In re-reading your post #64 I was caught by this. Is it, then, that the more complex the organism is the less free will it has? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romansh Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 No it doesn't in my view. As far as those who see choice as free will missing out on an exploration of our reality.... perhaps that is a dubious assumption? Perhaps it is not a dubious assumption? Dutch Now we shift our attention to intent. Here' s a question, do we actually have intent or do we confabulate? It is much like the old philosophical question ... The red chair I am looking at, is it actually red? Are our intents any more free of cause than are our choices? Without cause and effect (chemistry and physics) would we have an intent (will)? Is there any part of you that is not a result of cause and effect? If the answer is no, then the ramifications of this are worth exploring. If your answer is yes, then I would be interested in hearing more about this. We dance around saying we have "limited" free will ... What in fact we are doing is changing the definition and not paying attention to cause and effect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romansh Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 In re-reading your post #64 I was caught by this. Is it, then, that the more complex the organism is the less free will it has? Does a city with all it's inhabitants have free will, for it is far more complex than one person? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephM Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 Rom, Have you always believed as you do now? If yes, fine. If not, did your past beliefs prevent you from exploration of reality? If yes, then was it not a necessary step in your unfolding? Joseph Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glintofpewter Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 Rom, Let's skip to the whole philosophical question. Maybe earlier in the thread this was covered. Do we have free will so that we might be held morally accountable. The world functions as a compatiblist. Is there any other approach that works? My wife mediated between a teachers and special needs children and their parents. Often the question who have the ability to avoid the conflict? Sometimes the student had the ability and could be held accountable for changing their behavior. But just as often the behavior arose out of their disability and the teacher was held accountable for providing an appropriate environment that would reduce the behavior in the student. This is true in the criminal justice system also. Dutch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephM Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 Do we have free will so that we might be held morally accountable. The world functions as a compatiblist. Is there any other approach that works? Dutch I know you addressed the question to Rom but i would like to also comment ... You ask ... Is there any other approach that works? I think yes. Morals are determined by society as i believe you would agree as necessary. That doesn't make them 'right' or 'wrong' except in the eyes of the then existing society. So, society assigns consequences for actions. However, that does not require assigning punishment as if "free will" were really in effect.by the violator of societies moral standard. Actions simply have societal consequences, That is the only judgement required and it to me does not conclude the necessity to infer a "free will" decision. Only choice is necessary.that we be held accountable and that is limited in my view by a myriad of things that to me make it somewhat less than free.. Joseph Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glintofpewter Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 Does a city with all it's inhabitants have free will, for it is far more complex than one person? Rom, I asked a question of your statement. It is your turn to expand on your statement. Dutch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glintofpewter Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 Morals are determined by society as i believe you would agree as necessary. That doesn't make them 'right' or 'wrong' except in the eyes of the then existing society. I agree with you in general but... I don't understand why you make a distinction between choice and free will. I didn't expect that. And, I think morality is about right and wrong as seen through society's eyes. I also think that society's eyes now includes the world and that it is appropriate for the world to call a smaller group people to accountable for "bad behavior" This is not the post-modern world when we can say that everything is of equal value and who are we to judge. (to correct an Western European centric view of the world) In a post-post-modern world we do critique all societies, countries, cultural group, etc. The UN Bill of Human Rights is one document that that stands on that POV saying that behaviors can be critiqued from out side the group. Dutch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glintofpewter Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 I have to take a break and may not respond for up to 24 hrs. I apologize. I am very interested in continuing this line of investigation because I see a learning for me approaching. Dutch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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