soma Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 When I was young I taught a yoga class in a prison. One guy that came to the class told me he killed his wife. He said he came home drunk and she asked him to kill her and being a marshal arts expert he did. He was not a bad man, but he did make a bad decision and was paying for it. At the beginning there was an American Indian that came. He was a young guy like me. It was the late sixties and he got seven years for stealing an American flag...................out of a police station. He was a gentle soul, but after two years he was becoming a harden criminal. I could not judge either case because as Elizabeth said I couldn't see the whole parade, but I grew and learned a lot from the people I met in those classes, which grew into a half way house for them so they could be paroled. I had a yoga society and a health food store. The inmates were paroled to the yoga commune and had jobs in the health food store. They clashed witht the yoga people who were looking for escape and the inmates looked you in the eye and said what was on their mind so they didn't harmonize, but neither was wrong or right. We just started a new commune one a yoga society and one a half way house. Both parties helped each other and myself in particular to grow at the time. It is like the story Larry told energy changing, transforming and interacting. Paul, Pedophilia is a tough one, but I look at the priest that went into the priesthood idealistic, not supported by their Christianity and became disgraced. The priest wants a relationship with Christ, a spiritual experience, but the church wants them to perpetuate a tradition so pent up energy is expressed in a harmful way. They suffered and the altar boys, but again I can't see the whole parade. Instead of judging I need to use my energy to make sure that doesn't happen again if I have the opportunity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romansh Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 Yes. Then Larry it appears to me you don't believe in a transcendent god. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romansh Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 (edited) For the most part what I think of as good and bad coincide with what I like and dislike. But are they good/bad because you like/dislike them, or because they are good/bad? Just possibly they are not good or bad, full stop. When a hyena kills a lion cub is that good or bad? Edited July 29, 2014 by romansh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulS Posted July 29, 2014 Author Share Posted July 29, 2014 Just possibly they are not good or bad, full stop.When a hyena kills a lion cub is that good or bad? Well let me ask you, is it good or bad that an adult man should sexually abuse and terrorise 3 young girls he keeps imprisoned in his basement for decades? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elisabeth1965 Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 in human perception this is bad, and I don;t say this should go with no correction, I do believe in god's perception there is no good or bad, there is no judgement, this is hard for us to get our head around as we all grow up learning what is good and bad and what our values should be, but again it is human values. If you make a negative decision, or even kill someone I believe the universe will come back but as I tried to explain before it might be in a totally different time period. Lets take it one step further, the soul doesn't feel pain, there is no good and bad for the soul only our emotional conscience reacts on the things that happen. I believe all we are experiencing is just a little part of what our life is really about, it is our existence in the material world,as kaballah teaches we are living in the 1% and in fact it's just an illusion, a journey to fulfill and come to the other 99% which is our part in god. Learning to step out of our emotional conscience might be our most difficult task but is also our human experience for if we wouldnt we would be god Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romansh Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 (edited) Just possibly they are not good or bad, full stop. When a hyena kills a lion cub is that good or bad? Well let me ask you, is it good or bad that an adult man should sexually abuse and terrorise 3 young girls he keeps imprisoned in his basement for decades? In an absolute sense neither. In a societal sense it's a complete no no. It is like asking is evolution good or bad ..... The same mechanism that gives us a wondrous variety of life also gives us cancer and a whole range of illnesses. A man started molesting his step daughter. In prison he was discovered to have tumour in a part of his brain where sexuality is processed. The tumour was removed and his desire was removed. Slowly his desires returned as did his tunour. Again his desires disappeared when the tumour was removed. Is this man good or bad? Is the sun's radiation good or bad? It gives us life and death. Edited July 29, 2014 by romansh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soma Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 Romansh I like your examples. They bring to my mind that judging lacks understanding and results in the lack of wholeness. Our judgements say more about ourselves then the people we judge. It describes how we think things or people ought to be from a desire to have things the way we want them to be. Buddhism is effective in practising discernment or seeing the way things are and not to add to the discernents with our opinions, which would be judging. Thoreau said, “It’s not what you look at that matters, it’s what you see.” Our judgements seem to identify in ourselves elements of dissatisfaction and lack of peace. The worst thing is we are our worst critic when we judge ourselves. I think Christianity tries to rectify this with forgiveness to regain our peace and ability to love. "Love your neighbor as yourself." It seems to start with forgiving ourselves and then others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulS Posted July 30, 2014 Author Share Posted July 30, 2014 Soma, Those are all very noble traits of course, and when one has the opportunity to sit, think and dwell on the state of mankind we can wonder about all sorts of things. But we simply don't operate like that on a day to day basis. We make judgement calls every day. In fact we need to or else we wouldn't be able to function or survive as a species. Surely you must apply some logic to your decision-making in certain situations and thereby make a judgement? If you see a woman being raped do you intervene to stop it because you instinctively know that it is wrong to rape, or do you stop to consider that judging lacks understanding and results in lack of wholeness? I know that judging others can lead to misunderstanding, but also there needs to be judgement or else things don't work as I see it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulS Posted July 30, 2014 Author Share Posted July 30, 2014 Rom, There are certainly instances where it is difficult to assess whether something is good or bad, harmful or helpful, beneficial or destroying. Natural elements like the sun, animals instincts, or a persons medical problems are good examples of these grey areas. But I don't think the rape example I use is just a 'societal' no no. I see no benefit out of that action, only harm and hurt, and therefore I feel comfortable saying it is bad. Do not do it. Do not allow it. Condemn it (which I'm sure you do). It's just that saying things 'happen as they are meant to' doesn't ring true for me. To accept certain acts, behaviours and circumstances simply as 'the universe unfolding how it is meant to' simply isn't satisfactory for me. It doesn't make any sense to me. What does it mean to you - don't get angry about certain actions? don't get upset about certain behaviours? don't be an activist for change? I guess that's what I'm trying to get my head around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephM Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 (edited) Paul, As a species we make decisions about what is acceptable behavior and what is not. That is the role of society. It seems to me, this is necessary and need not be judged as good or bad or upset us. We can simply say it is unacceptable to society as a whole and choose a way to protect ourselves from it whether through punishment, rehabilitation, or whatever means we have. It seems to me that getting upset and angry about it and applying condemning or judgement labels does nothing constructive in approaching societal solutions. We can simply take action (be an activist or not) out of reason and love. To me, the pedophile is an expression of life that has been reached through circumstances and choices not often readily apparent. It just as likely could have been 'me'. The capacity for all that you may see or consider as 'evil', i see in 'me'. All expressions of life are actions and all actions have consequences not only from society but as a result of the action itself. I 'see' judgement is sure even without my labeling or society taking action ( of course i agree it is necessary and in the best interest of society to do so). To me condemning is merely an act of pride. Certainly the role of society is to determine what benefits and what harms. In my opinion, that does not make it good or bad. Society is merely evolving and history shows even its decisions are often corrupt or two-sided. Slavery was once thought 'good' (at least for the owner), now it is thought 'bad'. To the whole, i see it as neither....just unacceptable or not wise at this point in our unfolding evolution. Joseph PS Working from Understanding and Compassion rather than anger or upset does not negate taking action to protect society from perceived harm. To me, Condemnation itself lays blame and accusation where we have very little knowledge. I think we can still act intelligently to remedy societies problems outside the bounds of hate and individual blame. Edited July 30, 2014 by JosephM add PS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephM Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 Some enlightening questions we can ask ourselves..... What makes me different from the other? If it is choice,.. Then why did i make a different choice than the other? If my choices makes me 'better' than the other, Who or what is responsible for me making 'better' choices that i should boast or think i am 'better' than the other as if it were by my own power rather than by grace. Just musing, Joseph Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soma Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 Paul, you are right at the computer I have time to think, but in the street I must act instaneously. In sports I practised over and over sometimes the same move so I could perform an action instaneously without thinking, call it muscle memory if you will. Some sports psychologist have athletes mentally perform the actions in their minds and found they performed better. I call it now spiritual practise, practising wholeness, unity with all. I usually don't dream, but when I do I reflect and sometimes I am happy with my actions and sometimes not meaning there are weaknesses. Yes, we all make mistakes, but it is no reason to get down if we learn and grow from the situation. When I first arrived in Korea I was wondering the streets getting my barings. I was looking for a place to live as I new I was going there for the first time. I was not able to read any books on the subject. A young girl ran out of an alley and grabbed hold of me and would not let go. She was speaking Korean and I didn't know what she was saying. I didn't know what was happening. I was also young and confused. An older lady came out and took her away. This haunts me because I later realized that the older lady could have been her mother or her MaMa Son or pimp. This prompted me to become more centered and aware of where, who, and what I am to do. I just left an ashram where I was meditating four hours a day and I realized that we must always meditate no matter what we are doing or where we are. Earth school teaches through our actions if we like them or not. Unfortunately, I have learned more from from the school of hard knocks than from the one where I could sit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romansh Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 Paul No one is advocating that you should or should not be an activist. No one is saying you should or should not become angry disappointed ... Insert emotion [here]. What I am saying is I try not to have these negative emotions ... Not because it is bad in some way, but that it is just pointless to have them. When I I think something is bad, for me it means simply that I don't like it. It is ok not to like something, but I do understand than that is just a reflection of me, which in turn is a reflection of the universe. Saying things happen as they are meant happen is simply a reflection of our need to have some sort of meaning. Things happen. Full stop. No one is saying you should not try and change the world. There is a subtle difference between acceptance and apathy which I don't seem to have made clear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 Just possibly they are not good or bad, full stop. When a hyena kills a lion cub is that good or bad? Neither. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soma Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 I think in a building on fire we should yell for help. I think we should be an activist if we have the calling. When I was young we demonstrated against the Vietnam war. My roommate organized the rallies, but when it came for the leaders to sacrifice they balked, but that was their callings. They did good, but didn't have the energy to go to the next step. Many did, Kent students gave their life I had to change my career path and I am glad I made my choices because I learned, grew and sacrificed for what I felt was right. That was one war, now I am trying to stop war: in myself, in society and against and with different causes. I look at it as something I have to do or not do on my spiritual journey. I was in Iran in 78 and experienced their revolution, but was not active, but was by just being American. I watched learned and grew as the Iranians in the revolution and agaist it helped me. I now witness things appearing that I must accept and deal with and accept the results. In just accepting I have ended a war in my mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 Then Larry it appears to me you don't believe in a transcendent god. What does free will have to do with transcendence? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulS Posted August 1, 2014 Author Share Posted August 1, 2014 Okay, I think I understand what I am lumping together as Rom's, Joseph's and Soma's thoughts here: The universe is unfolding as it is meant to, with all sorts of actions in the mix, including things that are typically referred to as 'good or bad', and many shades of grey in between To accept or not accept those actions/behaviours is also part of how things are meant to be Our 'free will' in regards to how we view those things might not be free at all but a consequence of our genetic makeup and environmental circumstances So whilst we might think we are using our free will, we possibly aren't, but nonetheless our responses to these things/actions/behaviours is part of the universe unfolding So by all means be an activist for what you think is the best thing for the unfolding universe, because even though you might not know it, that is what the universe unfolding means for you Am I on the mark so far? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glintofpewter Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 Hi, everyone, I am returning as a trial. I don't think the universe is meant to be anything. from the OP If I have that understanding correct (and maybe I don't) then shouldn't we simply let all these things happen and not get involved? If the processes of evolution took this position then two hydrogen atoms would still be looking to hook up as hydrogen molecules (and we wouldn't be here). I think the big picture of evolution shows that there is an impulse to something new and that evolution values life. And so we might be oriented that way also. My POV is that if I can say anything about God I will tell a story about God and creation evolving together. God might be where the best ideas about what we can be reside. The natural processes are not perfect and horrible harmful actions are made with intention to cause harm. This should not be confused with the life death cycle necessary for creation.I would say that harmful behavior is the result of natural processes gone awry. Freewill: evolution suggests that it exists. Without it there will never be something new. I saw that Richard Dawkins the materialist (and atheist) says he believes that freewill exists. To the surprise of many. Dutch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romansh Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 What does free will have to do with transcendence? It is your knowledge of what god has or does not have that belies your belief in a transcendent god. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romansh Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 (edited) Okay, I think I understand what I am lumping together as Rom's, Joseph's and Soma's thoughts here: [*] The universe is unfolding as it is meant to, with all sorts of actions in the mix, including things that are typically referred to as 'good or bad', and many shades of grey in between [*]To accept or not accept those actions/behaviours is also part of how things are meant to be [*]Our 'free will' in regards to how we view those things might not be free at all If we don't have free will ... We will essentially come to one of two conclusions 1) we could come to the conclusion there is no intrinsic self, and accept our roles in the unfolding universe 2) we could still believe we have free will, but at this point we believe we hake on some god like properties ... Eg the ability to act independently of the unfolding universe. In some way we think we are separate from the universe. I suppose we could remain uncertain regarding the two options. But if this is the case, I would explore both options very carefully. I agree with Dutch's there is no meant. But I disagree with his evolution giving us free will. evolution is not separate from the universe unfolding, and I don't think bacteria, mammals or large primates in general are either. Edited August 1, 2014 by romansh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glintofpewter Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 romansh, "Evolution" is to me equivalent with "universe unfolding". I think if nothing new ever happened there would be no evolution. Evolution is evidence that in creation, new does happen. I take that as evidence that everything is not determined and therefore there is the opportunity to do something new. Hence we have freewill, however limited. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephM Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 Paul, In my view, I think, your post above shows an understanding of where we are coming from. (well at least me...don't want to speak for Rom and Soma) Dutch, It seems to me your perception is in agreement and i certainly would not debate with you the way you have used 'free will' as you do qualify it as "however limited". Joseph PS Refreshing as always to hear your perspective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soma Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 Paul I feel you nailed it. I agree the Universe is unfolding and we are in the middle of the stream. It is hard to swim up stream, but the salmon do a good job, but we have free choice to swim left, right or in the grey area. We can even swim against the current, but it seems to make one age prematurely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romansh Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 Dutch, It seems to me your perception is in agreement and i certainly would not debate with you the way you have used 'free will' as you do qualify it as "however limited". Joseph PS Refreshing as always to hear your perspective. I must admit the way Dutch has used free will, for me does not address the nature of free. If our will is a result of a mesh of a myriad of causes, then this becomes an interesting concept of free. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glintofpewter Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 Is willing something new not the same as having free will? I don't deny all the qualifications to the execution of this free will or the possibility of willing something new. I think that accepting what can't be changed is mentally healthy. I think there are difficult and nuanced conversations about intention and accountability in the criminal justice system. I don't think "what is" was meant to be. It seems to me that usage is a remnant of the language of the victor or survivor or the chosen or the status quo and it is a barrier to seeing something new. (It is also a wonderful feeling when you think that a special relationship was meant to be. Sometime ago when I googled school shootings and followed one series of links I found an early 20th century editorial that responded to a local shooting by opining that since young men carry guns the shooting was inevitable. Unavoidable, can we say , "Meant to be." I think that seeing an alternative, something new, is deeply and profoundly connected to, arising out of, the essential aspect of the process of evolution. In theological language one can say the insights, dreams, plans which lead to something new are the way that God draws us forward into heaven on earth. Dutch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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