rivanna Posted August 6, 2012 Author Share Posted August 6, 2012 (edited) IMHO, to view gun murders in the same way as an accident, fatal disease or natural disaster, something we can’t do anything about, have no responsibility for, is to condone them. Some claim that the government intrudes on privacy, the right to self protection, by requiring background checks or by banning assault weapons. But what could be more intrusive than invading a house of worship and attacking peaceful, reverent people. Edited August 6, 2012 by rivanna 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minsocal Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 IMHO, to view gun murders in the same way as an accident, fatal disease or natural disaster, something we can't do anything about, have no responsibility for, is to condone them. Some claim that the government intrudes on privacy, the right to self protection, by requiring background checks or by banning assault weapons. But what could be more intrusive than invading a house of worship and attacking peaceful, reverent people. There is nothing more intrusive than invading a house of worship and that is why the FBI is calling this a potential act of "domestic terrorism". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soma Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 In Aurora the shooter bought 6,000 rounds legally. We regulate Sudofed more than deadly weapons. Our only answer is that people should buy a gun, more weapons. The NRA has a strangle hold on common sense. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephM Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 I agree Soma we need better controls and i would add enforcement of present laws to reduce crime with guns.. Education of our young ones and how they are brought up is also most important. Since the large majority here support an assault weapon ban here is some Libertarian logic to try and understand the other side of those who are against the assault ban If one seeks understanding of why our educated representatives voted not to continue the ban here is a good Wiki article. One can blame it on the NRA if one likes but i personally would not and challenge people to read both sides of the issue. Drugs like heroine and cocaine and others are banned in this country and against the law and they are still readily available in all US cities on a black marhet. The price may go up with laws and a ban but those who are criminals and those who are mentally deranged will not be stopped by a law or ban and we have existing bans and data to prove that. The problems of killing and crime are imo always deeper than the surface issues. Public support for bans, imo, i personally find usually rest on oversimplified arguments and mostly erroneous data. Then again we all have opinions and the above links are just food for thought and understanding. Have a great day, Joseph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulS Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 I think just like the drug issue, banning assault weapons in isolation is not going to work. However making it illegal to manufacture/import/sell such weapons, combined with removing as many existing assault weapons from the population as possible, combined with better laws for regulating the sale of firearms and amunition, combined with education/societal attitudes towards violence, combined with a desire to not return violence for violence, all of these controls and more, might just move society toward a slightly safer place. I just can't imagine Jesus keeping an AK47 under his bed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neon Genesis Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 (edited) Again, I point to this Harvard study that shows a clear connection between the number of guns people own in a state and the amount of homicide rates in that state: http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/press-releases/2007-releases/press01112007.html Is Harvard using "oversimplified" arguments? Edited August 7, 2012 by Neon Genesis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neon Genesis Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 Yep, more dead in an attack on a Sikh Temple in Wisconsin. I should think that the the Sikh Temple attack disproves the notion that knives are just as dangerous and violent as guns are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulS Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 What doesn't seem to be addressed in this thread so far is why are Americans so obsessed with owning guns anyway to the point where they seem to think if they can't carry them everywhere at all times then it's an assault on "freedomz!"? Are other countries just as obsessed with guns as America is or this just an American thing? Neon, You ask the question. "why are Americans so obsessed with owning guns . The question is flawed in my view in that Americans as a whole are not obsessed with owning guns. Many especially here on this forum are not and of all the people i know. only one MAY BE obsessed with owning guns. What makes one obsessed? It is defined in the dictionary as "To have the mind excessively preoccupied with a single emotion or topic". I don't think Americans in general are by that definition obsessed with owning guns. I think you are speaking of a sensationalized very small minority of the population. According to recent surveys, only approximately 40% of Americans even own guns and feel it is their right, i don't think that makes it an obsession. Even NRA membership is less than 2% of the population. Joseph Whatever it is, it does seem to be an 'American thing', Neon. Maybe 'obsession' is not the right word, but compare the US's gun ownership ratio of 40% (as reported by Joseph) , to that of Australia's and New Zealand - 5% each. Why such a huge imbalance? What is it in our cultures that sees such a strong emphasis on the right to bear arms for Americans, yet no Aussies or Kiwis even carry concealed firearms (exluding law enforcement). Is it because the US had to fight for independence from England and it all stems from there? All three were countries which were 'invaded' by europeans and which fought and drove off indigenous peoples (NZ less so) and used firearms for hunting, yet for some reason the US certainly has outpaced the othe two in the gun stakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neon Genesis Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 I'm also curious why it's a specific demographic of Americans who seem particularly obsessed with guns, namely very conservative evangelical Christian Republicans. Wasn't there a Jewish dude in the bible that said something about loving your enemies and turning the other cheek and stuff? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJ Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 Wasn't there a Jewish dude in the bible that said something about loving your enemies and turning the other cheek and stuff? Yes, when one cheek is slapped. He didn't say if someone breaks into your house to rape your spouse, give them your child also. NOT having a weapon in such a case would permit violence to occur, whereas merely brandishing the weapon would likely prevent violence. Which do you think Jesus prefers? 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glintofpewter Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 How many home invasions are stopped by a homeowner with a gun? References please. Dutch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glintofpewter Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 How many deaths are the result of guns in the home? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neon Genesis Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 Yes, when one cheek is slapped. He didn't say if someone breaks into your house to rape your spouse, give them your child also. NOT having a weapon in such a case would permit violence to occur, whereas merely brandishing the weapon would likely prevent violence. Which do you think Jesus prefers? And when the apostle Peter tried to fight back against the Roman soldiers who were going to unjustly arrest Jesus, Jesus stopped the attack because his kingdom was not of this world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glintofpewter Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 Injuries and deaths due to firearms in the home. excerpts from the abstract Kellermann AL, Somes G, Rivara FP, Lee RK, Banton JG. Source Center for Injury Control, Rollins School of Public Health, Emory University, Atlanta, GA, USA. Abstract We reviewed the police, medical examiner, emergency medical service, emergency department, and hospital records of all fatal and nonfatal shootings in three U.S. cities: Memphis, Tennessee; Seattle, Washington; and Galveston, Texas. RESULTS: For every time a gun in the home was used in a self-defense or legally justifiable shooting, there were four unintentional shootings, seven criminal assaults or homicides, and 11 attempted or completed suicides. CONCLUSIONS: Guns kept in homes are more likely to be involved in a fatal or nonfatal accidental shooting, criminal assault, or suicide attempt than to be used to injure or kill in self-defense. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9715182 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rivanna Posted December 14, 2012 Author Share Posted December 14, 2012 Last week a shooting in a Portland shopping mall, today a massacre in a Connecticut elementary school. I’m in tears. Will it ever be time to do something about these atrocities? God help us all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeW Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 Last week a shooting in a Portland shopping mall, today a massacre in a Connecticut elementary school. I’m in tears. Will it ever be time to do something about these atrocities? God help us all. Our laws on guns are absolute idiocy. And, it is not even a topic of discussion. George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vridar Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 There needs to be a dialog more so than the FoxNews / Jon Stewart type. Steward last week distilled the current discussion down to lower than ridicule. It is a classic and I have it saved on DVR. It's worth viewing. It is prompted by Bob Costa's NFL halftime opinion and the debate afterwards. Comedy Central has it here. Also, for us Bishop Spong followers Bishop Gene Robinson is the guest author on the same episode. It's worth watching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeW Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 And, Timothy Egan had a wonderful Op-ed in the NYTimes, last week: http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/12/06/the-great-gun-gag/ George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vridar Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 And, Timothy Egan had a wonderful Op-ed in the NYTimes, last week: http://opinionator.b...-great-gun-gag/ Eagan writes,"The safest place in Idaho, by far, is just inside the security line at the Boise airport, where a big sign warns people that they will soon be entering a mandatory gun-free zone." Interesting argument is if people had guns to protect themselves there would be less violence. Hum, why not let guns behind the gun-free zone to make it safer? Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeW Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 Interesting argument is if people had guns to protect themselves there would be less violence. Hum, why not let guns behind the gun-free zone to make it safer? Because that airport area is probably controlled by the gun-hating, tree-hugging, federal government headed by a Christian-hating, tax-and-spend, arugula-eating, socialist, Kenyan Muslim who intends to take all our guns away from us. George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minsocal Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 Today, we lost 20 innocent lives in an elementary school in Connecticut. If researchers like Jonathan Haidt are correct, and I think they are, this should not rest easy with us as humans. I would add that Bishop Spong also has it in good perspective. We are losing our very humanity. It is time, IMO, to say "no" ... and, this IS a time to say WE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vridar Posted December 15, 2012 Share Posted December 15, 2012 (edited) Twitter is active. Pressure is on politicians. My Tweet - People needed 2nd amendment guns as levelers to evil when guns were flintlocks. Evil now has greater firepower. Ban handguns, assault guns. Edited December 15, 2012 by Vridar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glintofpewter Posted December 15, 2012 Share Posted December 15, 2012 Our laws on guns are absolute idiocy. And, it is not even a topic of discussion. Gov Hickenlooper, yesterday, said that enough time had passed since the Aurora theater shootings and he thought that in January the Colorado Legislature could take up gun laws. Wonder how this will change the conversation the gov hoped to have in a relatively calm atmosphere. Dutch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulS Posted December 15, 2012 Share Posted December 15, 2012 In April 1996 Australia suffered it's worst massacre when 35 people at a historical tourist site were gunned down in cold blood by a lone male. The Government banned and heavily restricted the legal ownership and use of self-loading rifles, self-loading and pump-action shotguns, and heavily tightened controls on their legal use. The government initiated a "buy-back" scheme with the owners paid according to a table of valuations. Some 643,000 firearms were handed in at a cost of $350 million which was funded by a temporary increase in the Medicare levy which raised $500 million. Funnily enough, this quote from Wikipedia - "After discovering that the Christian Coalition and US National Rifle Association were supporting the gun lobby, the Government and media cited their support, along with the moral outrage of the community, to discredit the gun lobby as extremists. May assault weapons, handguns, and automatic/semi-automatic weapons be banned sooner rather than later, everywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeW Posted December 15, 2012 Share Posted December 15, 2012 In my opinion, there is almost no chance that we will enact reasonable gun laws on a national level in the near future. There was nothing following Virginia Tech. There was nothing following Tucson. There was nothing following Aurora. And, I expect that there will be nothing following Connecticut. There is less support for gun control today than there was 25 years ago. I can remember when control gun was a topic of political discussion. It no longer is. Obama had no initiatives in his first term because it would be a useless waste of time. I suspect the same will be true in the second. It is a real shame. George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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