John Ryan Posted April 26, 2012 Author Share Posted April 26, 2012 I wasn't referencing Kinsey. My sense of spectrum is based on my personal observations of friends and acquaintances. Sometimes their lives are lived out of wholeness and sometimes out of brokenness. Individuals who don't care about the gender of skin, Individuals who don't care about the gender of relationship. For others gender/sexual identity is defining. I don't believe everyone has the freedom to move back and forward. So I think it is innate for some people. Most gay's I have met told me that they knew early in life. I met a couple individuals whose gender/sexual identity didn't seem to be out of wholeness. Could I have been gay? Probably not although I went on a few dates with gay men. I have been thinking of women as partners for a long time. The gender of their skin is important to me. Clearly, there is identity associated with homosexuality, as with most things human. But, if you are suggesting there is no basic biological difference between straight and gay, I think this is wrong. Are you suggesting that all men feel an equal attraction to other men and women?I am pretty positive I never said that all men feel an equal attraction to both genders/sexes. Queer theory says nothing of the kind. It is difficult to grasp the concept without a background in Derridan deconstruction and social constructionism, since queer theory is really just Derridan poststructuralism applied to sexuality. I would not deny that boys and girls (at a young age) often have an innate attraction to one sex over the other. However, I would deny that the concept of "homosexuality" is merely a synonym for "innate attraction to the same-sex". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted April 27, 2012 Share Posted April 27, 2012 (edited) At the risk of repeating myself from previous discussions that some may not have engaged in, I don't think we can blame homophobia on religion. Any good theory should account for all and only the data. But the proposition that religion causes homophobia cannot be supported. There are devoutly religious people who are not homophobes and there are secular people who are homophobes. Therefore, religion cannot be the cause. However, religion is sometimes used as a rationale to give our underlying prejudices divine authority. George That is a risk George. Your comment may well be true in societies who are fortunate not to have a church and state mix but in countries like the UK where the Anglican Church is part of the state you are getting senior ministers trying to throw a spanner into the works to prevent other churches from carrying out gay marriage. I give an example where the Arch Bishop of York is trying to use laws from the middle ages, which gave the church the right to define that a marriage is between man and a women, in order to try to block the government from giving other churches the right to carry out gay marriages. See:- http://www.independe...rk-7561456.html His stance is supported by the many members of the catholic church and fundamental churches who have been on TV campaigning by telling everyone it is a sin and it should remain banned in the UK. It is not a case that all churches want this ban but because of the relationship of the church and state and the Queen being the figure head of the Anglican church here in the UK it is getting difficult. What could be a simple comprimise by saying each to their own belief on the matter is just too much for those who have an unfair (IMO) advantage and influence on the state. Edited April 27, 2012 by Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeW Posted April 27, 2012 Share Posted April 27, 2012 Pete, I am not suggesting that homophobia is not promoted by some churches, actively. What I am proposing is the underlying motivation for homophobia is not religious. One need not be religious to be homophobic. And, there are many religious people who are not. Churches that promote this attitude are using a divine authority to appeal to a basic, underlying prejudice. Some churches did the same thing about slavery and racism. They didn't, IMO, cause people to be racist, they just gave an authoritative justification. But, at the same time, there were churches and religious people fighting against it. So, racism is not a religiously motivated attitude. George Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Ryan Posted April 27, 2012 Author Share Posted April 27, 2012 The Soviet Union was virulently anti-gay, and virulently anti-religion at the same time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeW Posted April 27, 2012 Share Posted April 27, 2012 The Soviet Union was virulently anti-gay, and virulently anti-religion at the same time. And, Red China (although I don't know about the virulence). George Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted April 27, 2012 Share Posted April 27, 2012 (edited) Pete, I am not suggesting that homophobia is not promoted by some churches, actively. What I am proposing is the underlying motivation for homophobia is not religious. One need not be religious to be homophobic. And, there are many religious people who are not. Churches that promote this attitude are using a divine authority to appeal to a basic, underlying prejudice. Some churches did the same thing about slavery and racism. They didn't, IMO, cause people to be racist, they just gave an authoritative justification. But, at the same time, there were churches and religious people fighting against it. So, racism is not a religiously motivated attitude. George Aha! I am with you on this George. Thank you for that explanation. I agree that one can be religious and have a faith without being homophobic or unable to question ones beliefs and I guess this forum is testament to this. God, I do hope in future generations people look back on homophobia and say to themselves how ridiculous some in this generation have been to try to promote such evils like homosexual prejudice and laugh mockingly that some even went as far as to try and prevent gay and women ministers. Edited April 27, 2012 by Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yvonne Posted April 29, 2012 Share Posted April 29, 2012 I have been silent on this thus far, but I thougth I would share this video: http://now.msn.com/now/0428-savage-bible-speech.aspx I don't know how long the link will be viable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulS Posted April 29, 2012 Share Posted April 29, 2012 Yvonne, What a shame those young people walked out and refused to even consider what the speaker had to say. Just change their dress sense and I wonder if it would have looked exactly the same as when some people started speaking against slavery all those years ago. Cheers Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rivanna Posted April 29, 2012 Share Posted April 29, 2012 (edited) The video is disturbing...makes me sad. One of my kids is gay. It’s terrible when people see the bible as a moral recipe book --“how it’s supposed to be for all times” --instead of spiritual history…“here’s how Judeo-Christian civilization started out as a tribe, a record of what’s good AND bad about humanity.” The bible does not provide a basis for condemning healthy, monogamous relationships between same sex partners. There are relatively very few references to homosexuality in scripture. It’s not in the Ten Commandments. The Sodom & Gomorrhah story is about homosexual rape, not consensual sex between adults. The Leviticus “purity codes” are in the context of setting Jews apart from Gentiles. All the Old Testament prophets are silent on same-sex behavior. It’s likely that David and Jonathan, Daniel and Ashpenaz, and Ruth and Naomi were intimate couples. Jesus doesn’t refer to homosexuality, and many scholars think at least one of his disciples may have been gay. He constantly went out of his way to include those who were marginalized, and taught us not to be judgmental. When homosexuality is mentioned in letters attributed to Paul, it refers to Graeco-Roman pederasty and male prostitution. Paul himself may well have been gay or bisexual. John, hope you don't mind my asking about your avatar / signature-- how does “Jennifer’s Body” as a porno/ horror film affirm homosexuality? wouldn’t a non-violent choice be better, one that treats the subject with respect and tenderness? Edited May 1, 2012 by rivanna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeW Posted April 29, 2012 Share Posted April 29, 2012 When homosexuality is condemned in Paul’s letters, it refers to Graeco-Roman pederasty and male prostitution.. Rivanna, Do any of the authentic Pauline letters condemn homosexual behavior? Or, is this like the strong sexism expressed in letters written in Paul's name, but not by Paul? George Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rivanna Posted April 29, 2012 Share Posted April 29, 2012 (edited) is this like the strong sexism expressed in letters written in Paul's name, but not by Paul? Yes, that's what I meant, should have been clearer...I edited the post, adding "attributed to Paul". It's important to realize how Paul's position was 'revised' from radical to conservative to reactionary, as Borg & Crossan point out in the book discussed a couple years ago, The First Paul. Edited April 29, 2012 by rivanna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulS Posted April 29, 2012 Share Posted April 29, 2012 (edited) Just thought I'd share this link to a little piece by an organisation in Australia which campaigns for a variety of social justice issues. It goes for less than 2 minutes. Like the US, gay marriage is still a legal no-no here in Oz, but I'm certain it's status is soon to change. I like how this little clip portrays the naturalness and normality of being gay. Unlike the wicked, peadophile, sex-mad image so often portrayed by homophobes. https://www.getup.or...watch-the-video Edited April 29, 2012 by PaulS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Ryan Posted April 29, 2012 Author Share Posted April 29, 2012 I do love Dan Savage. The man is a God-send. John, hope you don't mind my asking about your avatar / signature-- how does “Jennifer’s Body” as a porno/ horror film affirm homosexuality? wouldn’t there be a better choice, one that treats the subject with respect and tenderness? (I do like the U2 lyrics :-)I would have to criticize your assertion that Jennifer's Body is a horror porn. The camera always cuts away for the gory death scenes, so it is pretty light horror; it is a dark comedy after all. Let me ask you if you have ever seen the film in its entirety, since it is actually has a very deep and intellectually stimulating plot? Then again, if you are not specifically looking for the hidden message in the plot, I can see how you could miss it completely. I would just like to know if you have seen it so that I know if I have to walk you through the plot line or not. I can talk all day about the film, since it is one of my favorites, and I am actually in the process of working on a cultural studies journal article about the feminist Christian themes underpinning the film. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brianmhager Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 Do any of the authentic Pauline letters condemn homosexual behavior? George Have you read Bishop Spong's book, "Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism"? He has an interesting take on this. Someone appearantly suggested to him that Paul may have been repressing same sex attraction. At first, I thought that was a bit "stretched." But Spong went on to point out similarities between what Paul wrote in many of his letters and well known individuals today who are rabidly homosphobic, like Ted Haggerd, who were later caught up in a gay sex scandal. I am not totally convinced, but it was enough of a crumb trail to open my mind to that possibility. Peace, Brian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeW Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 Have you read Bishop Spong's book, "Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism"? He has an interesting take on this. Someone appearantly suggested to him that Paul may have been repressing same sex attraction. Brian, Yes, I have read what Bishop Spong has said about Paul's sexual orientation. I too think it is a stretch. To 'diagnose' someone 2,000 years ago from a series of writings in which nothing is explicitly expressed is, IMO, highly speculative. George Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NORM Posted May 2, 2012 Share Posted May 2, 2012 While I don't think that Christianity or the Bible causes homophobia, it certainly does nothing to ameliorate the societal stigma directed toward persons of same gender attraction. A church I attended in my early 20s tried so desperately to deconstruct a young, gay man in our congregation that it drove him to commit suicide. Arguably, there were deeper issues at work, but the layers upon layers of guilt piled upon this poor soul by well-meaning, but WRONG Christians - a group he wanted to belong to more than anything else - pushed him to a final solution at his own hands. The speaker whose audience dissipated over words that challenged their prejudices underscore the themes meted out within this thread - whether of Christian or secular origin, homophobia is a scourge worthy of defeat. NORM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brianmhager Posted May 2, 2012 Share Posted May 2, 2012 I would like to recommend a wonderful book to all of you. It's called, "CRISIS" by Mitchell Gold. It's an anthology of various individual's Coming Out Experiences, most in the context of their faith life and some accounts by a couple of parents - at least one who tells the story of her daughter who felt compelled to commit suicide because she felt her daughter was wrong; much like the "Prayers For Bobby." There is also a witness by a gentleman who is, or was, an evangelical and it's billed as "An Evangelical Applogizes." The book, I believe, was inspired by the rash of young gay men committing suicide in the last several years. You all might find it highly inspirational and educational. I know I did. Brian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeW Posted May 2, 2012 Share Posted May 2, 2012 While I don't think that Christianity or the Bible causes homophobia, it certainly does nothing to ameliorate the societal stigma directed toward persons of same gender attraction. I would agree with this except for the sweeping generalization about Christianity. Not all Christians are homophobic. There are Christian churches that actively promote acceptance. George Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NORM Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 There are Christian churches that actively promote acceptance. Sadly, they are the exception, and not the rule. NORM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeW Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 Sadly, they are the exception, and not the rule. Happily, enough to prove that homophobia is not an inherent characteristic or a requisite value. George Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minsocal Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 Is there any voice in the Bible that represents a 'homosexual' .. a voice that even understood the word? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 (edited) I read about the petition that was held against Desmond Tutu's visit to Gonzaga. The article I cannot find now said that over 800 conservatives signed the petition trying to block his visit because he supports Gay Marriage. Then a counter petition was started and over 15,000 signed it as protest on the conservatives stance. This is not the article but it tells the the story :- http://www.spokesman...ism-at-gonzaga/ What it shows to me it that the voice for ending such prejudice is growing and growing. Edited May 4, 2012 by Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulS Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 It's just a matter of time, Pete. We will see significant change in our generation. I am sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Posted May 5, 2012 Share Posted May 5, 2012 It's just a matter of time, Pete. We will see significant change in our generation. I am sure. Here's hoping. I look forward to the day that we look back on these times and scratch our heads. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulS Posted May 5, 2012 Share Posted May 5, 2012 Here's hoping. I look forward to the day that we look back on these times and scratch our heads. I'm scratching my head now, wondering why it's such a big deal! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.