JenellYB Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 On the "new being"... The text below has always fascinated me...while it is commonly used to refer to the "new birth", becoming a "new creature" there are some elements within it that raise, at leact to me, some interesting questions about just what that meant, just what Jesus was talking about, that are quite inconsistent with traditional christian doctrine in this matter... *Jesus speaks as if Niccodemus, as a master of Israel, a teacher and leader, should ALREADY know of this...(remember, this conversation is set as taking place BEFORE Jesus' crucifixtion and ressurrection, AND before the "giving" of the Holy Spirit at Pentacost. * Jesus speaks of "we" speak, know, have seen, give witness to...."We?" John 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named NICODEMUS, a ruler of the Jews: 2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. 3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4 NICODEMUS saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. 9 NICODEMUS answered and said unto him, How can these things be? 10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? 11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephM Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 What is this "New Being?" Is it something definable, describable? What exactly is manifest in Jesus that was apparently not preexistent in this world before him? George Yes George, definitely preexistence in this world before him (Jesus). The words "usually hidden, but sometimes manifest, and certainly manifest in Jesus who is called the Christ." does not preclude that and the words "sometimes manifest" allude to that. I think all the great religions of the world point to it , howbeit in different words according to the limitations of sppeech and Is it something describable. It can be pointed to in words or more accurately sometimes in parables but it is more of an experience beyond self or the thinking mind that makes it difficult to convey except with abstract words such as Spirit, unconditioned mind, new being, new creation, kingdom of God or Heaven, etc. limited by vocabulary of the time and experiences of the speaker. Joseph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JenellYB Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Wayseeker...must it be that if we transcend, or even tear away, things of religion that describe and define God, the image of God that religion presents, that there is therefore, no God? Must it be that we continue in old ways of understanding and interpreting Jesus, that have been handed down to us by many generations men turning it this way and that, what He may have said, meant, who/what He was/is, or have as the only viable alternative, to dismiss Him entirely? Jenell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephM Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Wayseeker said... Call me what you will, but I care too much about this world, my children, my children’s children, and other people’s children to embrace the Buddhist notion that all is exactly as it should be, could be no different, and the only reason we are here is to dance. There is certainly a time to dance, but I don’t think that rejecting God’s kingdom (will for the earth) as a compassionate and just social structure is a wise thing to do, especially by the one branch of Christianity that does claim to take Jesus’ teachings seriously. I respect your approach and that's great if it works for you. It is good you care about the world and do what you can to make it as you see a 'better place'. I do what i can... even went green this year.. electric car and all and solar at my house and on my RV. That is a small part of the dancing for me this year. There is no notion here that things could not be different in the future. What was said was that at this moment in the dance all is as it is. I embrace that as this moment in all its perfection of design but that does not preclude actions arising from me out of this moment that work toward change. There is no rejection of God's kingdom. it is here. It is in the dancing but often hidden from optical view. The kingdom of God/heaven as Jesus is recorded saying does not come with observation (ocular evidence ---parateresis) . In my view, God's will IS being done and will play out in the fulness of times. Am I taking all of this too seriously? Should I just take a chill pill or smoke a joint and join the “I’m okay, you’re okay, the world’s okay” club? Should I just embrace a kind of panendism and believe that everything will all pan out in the end, despite what we do or don’t do? I admit, it is an appealing view…if only I could teach myself not to care. How do I do that? Perhaps I could begin by denying the reality of a God of love, or his kingdom of justice, or his will of compassion… Perhaps. A chill pill or joint? if you wish, but i see no wisdom in that. No club here Bill. The world is okay doesn't mean it will remain in this moment except to perhaps some. Change is inevitable in the dance. I would not suppose i have any right to tell you or anyone what they should or should not embrace or what they should or should not do. We are just sharing and i think i understand your position but i think you misunderstand my words. i have not taught myself not to care nor would i tell you to do that although it seems to in your words be your conclusion. However , i might say as Jesus is reported saying... "Let not your heart be troubled". and i would personally suggest and trust that God's will will be done in all of our lives. The dancing does not stop because of any words i might say or misunderstandings i might have. Joseph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glintofpewter Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 To Dutch: Quote On the other hand surf the web to find some readings that will grate - or not - on your spiritual nerves. Message received. Bill, I made an arrogant and careless remark. I am sorry that you felt targeted. I don't know how I implied that. Here is an exception to many of the readings I liked. I have a problem with illness equaling sin although surely the crowd around Jesus probably thought thus. No wonder leprosy is used as type and picture of sin. Sin starts as a blotch, a discoloration, and soon infects its host. The Bible teaches that sin infects and then consumes. If leprosy is a picture of sin; the miracle is a powerful statement of the power of Jesus to deliver from sin. the only reason we are here is to dance. I don't think you got what I saying but my sense is that today is not the time to discuss it with you. My different metaphors about God seems to create too great a distance to surmount and rightly or wrongly you seem to feel attacked. Take Care Dutch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JenellYB Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Shall we all now bow our heads together and recite the "Serenity" prayer. To accept what is, is, isn't to embrace fatalism or nihilism. It is all in that "wisdom to know the difference." Jenell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephM Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Bill, I also would like to apologize for my use of metaphors and often an unclear message that because of my choice of words do cause one to get an understanding from my words that is not exactly what i intended to mean. I know your focus is on the message of Love and the actions arising out of it in this world and even though we may perceive or define Love and see the world a bit differently, my actions would be in line with what you seem to view as bringing about social justice, treating people as we would wish to be treated, and doing that which is placed in our power to effect positive change in this world toward such goals for ourselves and our children.. Joseph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillM Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Joseph, I didn’t mean to say that you, personally, subscribe to all the viewpoints that I have expressed my concerns about, for I know that you don’t. Nevertheless, you and the other moderators, like it or not (and even though you may deny it) do represent an official stance of TCPC here. You and the other mods steer conversations, whether intentionally or unintentionally. I don’t think this can be avoided, even if clauses such as “as mod” or “as admin” are used. Imo, it just goes with the territory. And this is why, again imo, I question moderators’ viewpoints that seem to go against the Eight Points. I’m not trying to be a firm-posterior bouncer, but I would think that the mods here would be generally supportive of the Eight Points. Perhaps I am wrong in my supposition, I don’t know. For example, in another thread, I said something about the claim that Jesus makes in Matthew 28 that his teachings are authoritative, meaning that they reflect truth, they reflect the wisdom of God. Dutch countered with something to the extent of, “How do we know that Jesus actually made that claim? How do we know anything that Jesus actually said?” Okay, if we are going to take that approach to the gospels, then why say anything in the Eight Points about Jesus’ teachings? Why even discuss what Jesus may have said about God, God’s kingdom, and God’s will if our approach to the gospels is, “If we can’t know for 100% certainty, then we must doubt and reject it all”? Maybe I am just broken-hearted that Progressive Christianity isn’t what I hoped it would be. I hoped it would be a community of people that took seriously the teachings of Jesus that we should love God and love each other in order to create a better world. I hoped for a group of people who are as passionate about God’s realm as Jesus was. Instead, I’ve found something very different. And I’m disappointed. That’s all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillM Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 I know your focus is on the message of Love and the actions arising out of it in this world and even though we may perceive or define Love and see the world a bit differently, my actions would be in line with what you seem to view as bringing about social justice, treating people as we would wish to be treated, and doing that which is placed in our power to effect positive change in this world toward such goals for ourselves and our children.. I can't rate your posts, Joseph, so all I can do is say, Amen. Blessings to ya. Yours in Christ, Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeW Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Yes George, definitely preexistence in this world before him (Jesus). The words "usually hidden, but sometimes manifest, and certainly manifest in Jesus who is called the Christ." does not preclude that and the words "sometimes manifest" allude to that. I think all the great religions of the world point to it , howbeit in different words according to the limitations of sppeech and I guess the 'new' in New Creation, New Being threw me off. This suggests something novel, something not preexisting, something, uh well, new. George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeW Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Maybe I am just broken-hearted that Progressive Christianity isn’t what I hoped it would be. I hoped it would be a community of people that took seriously the teachings of Jesus that we should love God and love each other in order to create a better world. I hoped for a group of people who are as passionate about God’s realm as Jesus was. Instead, I’ve found something very different. And I’m disappointed. That’s all. Bill, I am curious where members of this forum, particularly the moderators, have expressed lack of concern for a better world or have not "taken seriously the teachings of Jesus." George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JenellYB Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Bill, I love you, you know I do.... W.S...Maybe I am just broken-hearted that Progressive Christianity isn’t what I hoped it would be. .....Truth...to seek what we hope things are, or to seek to understand what things are? What we ultimately seek will never be found in any structure or organization or order of men........ Transcend! WS...I hoped it would be a community of people that took seriously the teachings of Jesus that we should love God and love each other in order to create a better world. I hoped for a group of people who are as passionate about God’s realm as Jesus was. Yes. People. All different kinds of people, just human people, all trying to find their way along their own path at the their own stage of their journey with what they know and have and their own experiences, imperfections, weaknesses, and strengths....You don't have it all, I don't have it all, none of them have it all, but together, we can share what each of us has......Transcend! W.S....Instead, I’ve found something very different. And I’m disappointed. That’s all. Others fail to meet your expectations? Your hopes? Where you feel your's is better, help them see that, too. But be open to seeing maybe your own may could use some help, in return? Words like dissapointed, disillusioned, disenchanted, so often thought of in painful negative ways, are, if really think about them, represent very very positive things. We cannot become dissapointed, disillusioned, disenchanted, unless we were first appointed (or at least beleived we were), deluded under illusion, under enchantment....the "dis-" words are the breaking of illusiion, delusion, enchantments..... Transcend! To seek truth, in truth, whatever the cost, is the most humbling journey imaginable! Transcend! Jenell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillM Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 I am curious where members of this forum, particularly the moderators, have expressed lack of concern for a better world or have not "taken seriously the teachings of Jesus." Allow me to put the question to you, George. Was Jesus a monotheist? Accordiing to the scriptures, did he believe in one God? Did he address this one God with the person-al nomenclature of Father? Did Jesus teach us that God was our heavenly Father? Did he teach us to pray and to work for God's will to be done on earth? Unless you are going to offer me Dutch's answer that few, if any, of the red letters of the NT were uttered by Jesus, I suspect you would have to answer yes to these questions. And yet you have said: I would add that "God's will" presupposes a divine being with human-like (but superior) cognition, desires and the like. I think the more one leans toward pantheism or 'Gob' (ground of being) concepts, the less one is likely to accept this premise. So which way to you lean? Do you believe in God as Jesus portrayed him? Or do you believe in gob? The gob-concept does not come from Jesus, it comes from Tillich. Was Jesus wrong about his understanding of God? I can understand and accept that people would reject Jesus' notions of God. But I can't understand how they can reject what Christ believed and yet call themselves Christians. That is what perplexes me. It is analogous to me claiming to be a Baptist while saying that I think Baptists are wrong on most everything. Why wear the label if you reject what the label represents? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inthedark Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Bill, I love you, you know I do.... W.S...Maybe I am just broken-hearted that Progressive Christianity isn’t what I hoped it would be. .....Truth...to seek what we hope things are, or to seek to understand what things are? What we ultimately seek will never be found in any structure or organization or order of men........ Transcend! WS...I hoped it would be a community of people that took seriously the teachings of Jesus that we should love God and love each other in order to create a better world. I hoped for a group of people who are as passionate about God’s realm as Jesus was. Yes. People. All different kinds of people, just human people, all trying to find their way along their own path at the their own stage of their journey with what they know and have and their own experiences, imperfections, weaknesses, and strengths....You don't have it all, I don't have it all, none of them have it all, but together, we can share what each of us has......Transcend! W.S....Instead, I’ve found something very different. And I’m disappointed. That’s all. Others fail to meet your expectations? Your hopes? Where you feel your's is better, help them see that, too. But be open to seeing maybe your own may could use some help, in return? Words like dissapointed, disillusioned, disenchanted, so often thought of in painful negative ways, are, if really think about them, represent very very positive things. We cannot become dissapointed, disillusioned, disenchanted, unless we were first appointed (or at least beleived we were), deluded under illusion, under enchantment....the "dis-" words are the breaking of illusiion, delusion, enchantments..... Transcend! To seek truth, in truth, whatever the cost, is the most humbling journey imaginable! Transcend! Jenell Amen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeW Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Bill, I fail to see where my answers to your questions would indicate concern or lack of concern for betterment of the world. This was your charge. George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeW Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 But I can't understand how they can reject what Christ believed and yet call themselves Christians. That is what perplexes me. It is analogous to me claiming to be a Baptist while saying that I think Baptists are wrong on most everything. Why wear the label if you reject what the label represents? It seems that part of your difficulty with this forum is in defining a Christian. I think it is someone whose theology or philosophy is centered on the person of Jesus. But, this is just my own definition, there are probably as many definitions as there are people who have considered this question. But, a participant here need not identify as a Christian (by whatever definition one wishes to use). in fact, I think it makes for more interesting, and beneficial, discussions if there are a wide variety views. George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillM Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 It was through progressive Christian authors such as Marcus Borg, John Shelby Spong, and Brian McLaren that I discovered a "new way" of being a Christian that was, in fact, an old way -- a way of simply loving God and loving others, of doing whatever I can to make our world a more just and compassionate place. Many of my conversations here have helped me grow in these things, especially as related to the Eight Points of PC. And for that, I'm thankful. But I've also experienced some frustration and disappointment here on the forum in that, in my opinion, there is a heavy Buddhist and atheist slant which essentially renders most discussions of God, God's kingdom, and the teachings of Jesus irrelevant. I believe that if Christianity is going to progress, it must be open to questions and it must be relevant. But I see a tendency here to put forth the notion that there is no such thing as truth, that all opinions are of equal merit, no matter how divergent or at odds they might be. As a progressive Christian, I believe in unity in essentials. But often the tone of this forum is that all we have available to us is opinions, no truth. This tone renders the concept of essentials meaningless. I'm simply not convinced, from my experiences with God and my limited life experiences, that everything is relative, that there is no truth, that there is no ultimate meaning. This being the case, while I'm thankful for my time here and for what I've learned, I can't in good conscious go in the direction that I believe this forum is going -- into a morass of ambiguity where we can know nothing, where all is meaningless and vanity. My journey has given me more than that and, I believe, expects more of me than that. I have experienced the reality of God. I believe that Jesus was right that we should love God and each other. And, as a follower of Jesus, I seek God's kingdom because I believe it can and will change us and our world for the better. Blessings to all, Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JenellYB Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 I feel I've been wonderfully blessed for having had Jesus as my teacher from very early in life. I feel I've been wonderfully blessed to have recieved the messages within the words attributed to Jesus into my heart at an early age, whether the man Jesus is portrated exactly as he was/in in the bible or Christian doctrine or not. Whatever he was or wasn't, did or didn't, Jesus was the door through which I entered in. I don't think Jesus ever taught that he was divine and holy and to be worshipped as God....I think Jesus was one that had entered into the presence of the divine and holy and felt as and called his point of contact with that divine and holy, "Father." I think Jesus left for me a story, full of messages, through which I and others might know something of that Way, that of entering in. I think Jesus spoke of Christ, was a "Christ annointed one", perhaps the most fully manifested "Christ annointed one", to be called as "Jesus, the Christed One, that would lead many others to the Way....But that Jesus, the man, was NOT the Christ, and that I or others may enter in, as well, to become among those awkened within the Body of Christ...to ME, THAT IS MY CHRISTIAN. Jesus has been for me, in turn and at various times, Elder brother, teacher, mentor, friend, confidant, comforter, scolder, corrector, comfortable companion, and in these later years, perhaps even bridegroom, and husband. But we are told Jesus said Himself, He (Speaking as/of Christ manifested within and through him) has sheep in other folds. And yet, no matter the fold, His (Christ's) sheep will know their master's voice when they hear it. I have come to feel I was blessed to have been born into the Christian tradition, where I would hear the Master's voice as I did through the words attributed to a man called Jesus. But that the Master has spoken and does speak through other instruments, as well, to His sheep in other folds. He is not limited to one place and time and small select group of people. And they, too, will recognize His voice when He speaks to them, through whatever language they know. Red and yellow, black and white...Jew or Gentile, civilized or heathen..... THAT is what "christian" is to me. And, i guess, always has been, even before I was really aware it it. Jenell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JenellYB Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 ....but transcend to what? To where I think that *I* am God? To where I think that *I* am the Christ? Oh, no, not at all...that is to DEscend....THAT is what we are all trying to ascend, transcend FROM. Jenell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inthedark Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 I love you, too, Jenell, but transcend to what? To where I think that *I* am God? To where I think that *I* am the Christ? Sorry, but I can't make that leap. I suppose there is still too much conservative Christianity left in me. I don't think that I'm God. I don't think that I'm the Christ. In an odd twist, many of the people here do see themselves as divine or as the Christ. If this were ontologically the truth, they would never disappoint, for how can God fail, how can Christ disappoint those who seek the truth? It is a strange thing that people who claim divinity or that God lives in them suddenly play the "Don't look to me, I'm only human" card when they fail to act like God or Christ. They claim divinity, they claim to be Christed (or some other such word) but they preface what they say with, "in my opinion." Why? Jesus didn't take the "in my opinion" approach, did he? He claimed to either speak of his own authority or of God's authority. There was no backing down with him. He didn't hide behind "in my opinion." He said, lived, and died for what he thought and believed. Imo, it was the church that "transcended" him into the demi-god that Christianity worships. To me, he is valuable, not because he "transcended" above the rest of us, but because he was right down here in the muck and mire of our mess...and loved and forgave anyway. That, to me, is the path that he shows us. So I'm not interested in the self-deification that is offered as part of the PC gospel. It's just not for me. Wayseeker, I don't think it is as straight forward as you think this...therefore you are that... JenellYB said that we are all on a journey and that journey is our own. The God of the bible has failed on many occasions and continues to do so - in my opinion. I hide behind that "in my opinion" clause because I wouldn't dare to assume that I have any more authority to speak on the matter than anyone else with an interest on the topic. I can form the opinion that Jesus was a special person to have affected those around in such a manner as they believed him to be divine and I base that opinion on the very limited information we have available to us today about his life. I would never state that Jesus was this or that with any authority, because it is not possible to do so based on that same information. I am searching for answers like most people here. God being unknowable by mere humans, with anything written about such a God being a reflection of ourselves is a very old idea. I find that when I read scripture, the idea rings true for me personally. I don't believe that this makes me divine! I do believe that a fully enlightened individual, such as what the character of Jesus appears to be, is as close to divine as any of us can aspire to be whilst here on earth. I don't think me holding these opinions makes me a bad person, or a non Christian and if you ask me in 5 years what my opinion is, it will likely have changed! I'm riding the wave, learning as I go, so I would never claim that what I think is better than what someone else thinks, because it isn't. It's just where I am at currently, hence...in my opinion.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeW Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Inthedark, Well said. George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JenellYB Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 What was the tempation to the orginal sin? The fall? That to KNOW good and evil, so as to be AS God. So as to judge God, and the creation God called "good." We have to turn loose of that KNOW, belief that we KNOW, or even CAN KNOW. We have to drop the fig leaf and walk right out into God's presence as He created us, in confidence. Without shame. And this is not just of the nakedness of our physical body, but our spiritual body, our soul, who/what we are. To realise there is nothing between me and God but my own darned fig leaf! Jenell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephM Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 I guess the 'new' in New Creation, New Being threw me off. This suggests something novel, something not preexisting, something, uh well, new. George Well yes new or novel to the individual in the sense that a change seems to be taking place in the individual as a creature but not new to humankind or any single religion as a whole. Wonderful book by Tillich. Its free on Nook from B&N which is free to download on your android. (Both Nook from marketplace and the book "new Being from B&N) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JenellYB Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Joseph: Well yes new or novel to the individual in the sense that a change seems to be taking place in the individual as a creature but not new to humankind or any single religion as a whole. Agree. jenell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeW Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Well yes new or novel to the individual in the sense that a change seems to be taking place in the individual as a creature but not new to humankind or any single religion as a whole. That makes sense. Thanks for the explanation. George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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