What About Others Who Question?

[PaulS]

Yvonne,

 

It might not be a very original idea, but what about another website like this one (the more the merrier). And perhaps even take it to anothe level by advertising through means other than the internet. I think websites like this one do a tremendous job at helping people who have doubts about their church teachings, particularly those of a fundy variety. Perhaps users of this forum take this forum for granted in that we know it is here and find help and comfort through its use. However I would suggest there are milions of evangelicals and fundamentalists out there who don't actually have any idea that other forms of christianity exist, or that there are such creatures as Progessive Christians To my thinking, having access to resources such as this forum is one of the best ways to help others seeking answers to some of the questions you suspect. And they get to do so in privacy, away from their families or friends who don't want them to question such matters.

 

Building on your website perhaps you could offer a support group for deconverting christians or simply those who are leaning away from fundy teachings towards PC or other. Your website could put them in touch with other PC bodies in their local area. It could provide links to resources such as books, uni courses, otherwebsites that provide some factual data for such people to absorb and weigh up against their current teachings.

 

Who knows, one day we may end up with an internet that has more PC websites than fundy ones and find people are realising that Jesus' message was anything but believing in a particular line of thought, but that his real message was one of inclusiveness, love, and enjoying life through respecting and caring for one another.

[JenellYB]

Yvonne, I think Joseph has a good point.

As you observe in your own process, there can be a lot of trauma dealing with these new stages of growth alone, without a group support system, BUT, that said, sometimes easier is not always better. I too had a complete lack of resurces or knowledge of there being others like me, and I stumbled around pretty badly for a while....BUT, as Joseph points out, when the time was right for me I was led to those things. I've learned now to trust in synchronicity, most of the time, anyway, since I'm also ADHD I do get distracted and not paying attention sometimes, but, back then, I didn't even know there was a word "sychronicity", let alone what it meant!

 

But, I now look back and see a very positive element in my having to face, confront, deal with those doubts alone, without support of others. Because I did go it alone, I had to work it all out for myself, and as a result, I think I'm much more rock solid on at least the most important parts because. I learned through experiencing, and I think that is so much stronger than reliance of anything others may say. If I'd had a lot of support, I would have probably just taken someone else's word for things I'd best learn through my own experiencing.

 

Jenell

[murmsk]

So, I will post the question again. What can I do to reach out to others who may be in those first stages of questioning so support them?

 

encourage encourage encourage !!! Sometimes it is as simple as telling them "I feel the same way too and here is what I did"

 

You could select a couple of primer books like "Meeting Jesus again for the first time" by Borg and/or "A New Kind of Christianity" by McClaren and offer to loan them a copy. Then get together for a chat.

 

I have found that if you are non-threatening and non-pushy those who are questioning will appreciate the help and encouragement.

 

steve

[Yvonne]

Yvonne,

 

It might not be a very original idea, but what about another website like this one (the more the merrier). And perhaps even take it to anothe level by advertising through means other than the internet. I think websites like this one do a tremendous job at helping people who have doubts about their church teachings, particularly those of a fundy variety. Perhaps users of this forum take this forum for granted in that we know it is here and find help and comfort through its use. However I would suggest there are milions of evangelicals and fundamentalists out there who don't actually have any idea that other forms of christianity exist, or that there are such creatures as Progessive Christians To my thinking, having access to resources such as this forum is one of the best ways to help others seeking answers to some of the questions you suspect. And they get to do so in privacy, away from their families or friends who don't want them to question such matters.

 

 

Wayseeker, I think that's an excellent suggestion! You all know I love this forum, but let's face it, most of us are reasonably well-educated and (at least most of us) of above-average intelligence. We've read, we've researched. And, while I appreciate what Jenell and Joseph said, I don't think its particularly helpful to people who don't even know where to start. It's like telling a person who's depressed to "get over it". We all need help sometimes.

 

I believe I will start another Web site, perhaps a forum, perhaps a blog. Will let you if/when that happens.

[BillM]

Yvonne,

 

I appreciate all the good advice above and can see wisdom in each suggestion. BTW, the more-websites-are-better approach is Paul’s advice, not mine. Not that I would be in any way opposed to it.

 

I guess the only thing I’d like to add is to actively listen. And I know that you are already doing that. But I’d like to echo what’s been said in actively listening to God inside you. As you know, Jesus didn’t promise us that a book or a creed or a statement of faith or even that the Church would lead us into all truth. He said that the Spirit would lead us into all truth, and, to me, that is God’s presence in us, leading us, guiding us, and, dare I say it, working through and speaking through us. The kicker in this, at least in my life, is that God’s voice usually initially comes to me disguised as doubt. I doubt things that I’ve been told by authorities, religious and otherwise. I question whether my understanding is right as far as being moral, or making sense, or as fitting in with the understandings of others. So this initial doubt, for me, often feels like losing my faith. But I’ve discovered that it’s not. Rather, it is honestly seeking the truth to the best of my ability. The opposite of faith is not doubt, but fear. And, imo, it is only the perfect love of God that takes us where we are, just as we are, that casts out that fear. Doubts remain because they are stepping stones to deeper faith. But love lessens the fear.

 

Similarly, again imo, we need to listen to people – actively. The better we know people personally, the more we know what their deepest fears are, at least to a good degree. I know some of my wife’s worst fears because I know her (and because some of hers are mine also). I don’t try to “fix her”, I just try to listen, especially to what God is doing in her life (though her theology and mine are somewhat different). Besides, I have plenty of areas in my life where there are still pockets of fear, things that I am not yet ready to address proactively because I am insecure or hurt there. Yet I continue to have hope because despite whether we take the resurrection of Jesus figuratively or literally, it was his own woundedness that he encouraged Thomas to touch, not his robe of white. It was in the wounds of being human that Thomas found God, not a crown of gold. So, for me, I would much rather listen to someone who starts with, “Look, I am really struggling with XYZ…” than to someone who claims to have all the answers.

 

And this, to me, is where it gets, well, costly. Actively listening to God and others will probably cost us much. It means that we dare open up to God who and what we really are and trust him to be working through that whole mess. And it means that we discerningly open up to others our own wounds and listen for theirs also. And it means that we trust that God is somehow, someway bigger than our woundedness and is able to heal us in his way and in his time. That, to me, is faith. It’s not blind faith, for it admits that we don’t have all the answers and that there are still unsolvable problems i.e. we face reality head on. But it is faith in that it doesn’t let our doubts and fears stand in the way of love. As to the practical ways to brings all of this to the real-world of our day-to-day living, I’d just suggest looking for or creating opportunities where YOU think God is leading you. In my life, these are often the very things that I am already the most passionate about.

[Yvonne]

OMGoodness! I apologize for the name mess up - Thanks, Paul for your suggestion.

Wayseeker, I had just read one of your other posts, so you got the credit!

Yeah, I know the spirit can and does move us - I've been listening very hard. The truth is, I had though of a web site, but i didn't know what direction to take; that, and it could float around in cyberspace indefinitely with never a hit, cuz I haven't the wherewithall to promote it. So...i guess i'll just step out in faith and see what happens.

[JenellYB]

I do understand what you mean, and agree with you, Yvonne. It definitely something I dont' have many answers to myself.

Jenell

[JosephM]

Yvonne,

 

While i also think that the more PC site idea is good because as i think Jesus said, "he that is not against us is for us", there is no reason you cannot fill the need you mention right here. You said.... " I don't think its particularly helpful to people who don't even know where to start. It's like telling a person who's depressed to "get over it". We all need help sometimes."

 

Each member is part of this forum. It is not my forum. I merely have been assigned some responsibilities and authority here. There is nothing to prevent other members who see a need to help new visitors/guest/members who don't even know where to start by speaking more on their level to address them. Members like Wayseeker have suggested by PM new areas of this forum such as the personal stories and journeys area that have been implemented and has proven very helpful to newcomers. There is no reason you can not do likewise and make suggestions to help to make this a more rounded site without all the complications in trying to start a new site. (though i see nothing wrong with that if you are so inclined).

 

What i am saying is we need a diverse set of members here who can speak to different needs of different people at different points in their journey. No one person can meet the needs or effectively encourage or be a blessing to all these people at all times. You are as free as any to focus on the needs of those who don't know where to start by sharing your experience and views at a level that will help or encourage people that i or another may not be able to reach with our words. Perhaps you focus in the introductions area or suggest a new area with purpose and guidelines etc.

 

Just something for you to consider if you see a need, This goes for others also. No need to reinvent the wheel when it can always be improved upon. Yet at the same time if you have a new idea that you feel strongly about, suggest it, and it is rejected here, i think you owe it to yourself to follow that dream in however you see fit. Just my thoughts as Admin.

 

JosephM (as Admin)

 

PS We presently get between 5000 to 7000 views a month here. We have 3 to 5 times the number of unregistered guests to members who read or use this site as a resource and never register so what people say here is read by far more than the active members at any one time. I believe the impact is far greater than what meets the eye.and what is said here and more importantly how it is said does make some small difference for the better in many lives.

[BillM]

What i am saying is we need a diverse set of members here who can speak to different needs of different people at different points in their journey. No one person can meet the needs or effectively encourage or be a blessing to all these people at all times.

 

Seeing as I can't rate your posts, Joseph, I'll just echo it and say amen. This is the value of community; recognizing that we all have different gifts and that while we have commonalities, we are at different places in our journeys. One of the strengths of PC is that it is not "formulaic." We don't have a one-size-fits-all approach to the big questions.

 

Perhaps you focus in the introductions area or suggest a new area with purpose and guidelines etc.

 

Always a good option for a growing community. Something that we might want to consider is a FAQ area where the focus is, not on giving ONE answer to the bigger questions of how PC is different from other forms of Christianity, but on permitting anyone who wants to share to give their own fairly concise view or thoughts on matters of import. This area might help newcomers and browsers to not only see the differences and commonalities between PC and traditional Christianity, but even the differences and commonalities between our members. This would allow them to see the "freedom" that we have here.

 

We presently get between 5000 to 7000 views a month here. We have 3 to 5 times the number of unregistered guests to members who read or use this site as a resource and never register so what people say here is read by far more than the active members at any one time. I believe the impact is far greater than what meets the eye.and what is said here and more importantly how it is said does make some small difference for the better in many lives.

 

Yes, another strength of community that already has some good visibility on the internet. And based on how many join and then join in, while TCPC is not having the results of a Billy Graham Crusade, we are helping some and allowing them voice that they may not be able to find elsewhere.

[murmsk]

there is no reason you cannot fill the need you mention right here.

 

For this to work you would have to create a separate section or better yet a separate BBS for those in the beginnings of this thought transformation. It would need to be regulated so as to be understandable to all. As the dumbest among us I can tell you this can be a very intimidating place for those who don't understand the language.

 

steve

[JenellYB]

While new and additonal websites presenting the PC perspective are one possible course, I think a more primary matter is raising general awareness that there even IS such a thing a PC and websites devoted to that perspective, so that those questioning know they are not alone, there are others, and places on the web they can seek out for learning and sharing in community with others of like dispostion. So i see just getting the word our, helping people toward seeking and finding what is already available, is a significant and worthwhile endeavor itself.

 

Creating and managing a new website is an task of its own, and I think demanding of personal interests, skills, talents, and knowledge in and of itself. For a person with BOTH the knowledge and inclination it would require to do a new website, AND dedication to PC thoughts and ideas, that could be a most rewarding undertaking. I think having both would be crucial to the success of such a venture. A website not done well (and we can easily find many on the web, dealing with any number of topics) can easily do more harm than good to it's intended topic and purpose.

 

I know that for myself, I simply have neither the inclination or skills for effectively designing and managing a website, about anything. Sure, I know that if I had the inclination, the desire, to learn to do a website, I could learn how to do it, but I don't. It just doesn't interest me, the actual doing a website part of it. I haven't even been able to keep myself involved in my first attempt at a blog! If course, that itself is another possiblity, besides a website, that is a viable option for many so inclined, and I think perhaps even a prelude activity if one does think they might want to at some later point do a website.

 

While sharing ideas is certainly worthwhile, I think it is also important to realize that according to each our own interests, inclinations, skill sets and knowledge, each has to find their own particualr niche. I also think that if there is really interest and desire present, it is important that we fall back on the primary principle most here agree as valid, that of seeking guidance, trusting that as we are ready, the way will open before us.

 

Jenell

 

This is no different than any that would undertake, say, writing and publishing a book on a topic, one can have tremendous ideas, vast well devloped knowledge of one's subject, but lack the skills needed to effectively put them across in writing a book.

[JenellYB]

Steve wrote: I can tell you this can be a very intimidating place for those who don't understand the language.

 

Extremely good point! I experience exactly that same point of frustration when I enter such an environment as evangelical churches! The problem of not knowing and understanding their different language is greatly compounded by a sense of their not even recognizing there IS a language barrier between themselves and those not experienced in that environment. And I can see that yes, that is often the case here in many of our discussions.

 

Jenell

[murmsk]

this might be a discussion for the editorial board of TCPC. I could see a new section of the website expressly for people who want to get the word out as well as a section for PC newbes. If their desire is to foster this movement then this is where it starts.

 

steve

[JenellYB]

You know, many of us have shared, either in our "introduction" postings, or elswhere in discussions, something of our own personal history in how we came to our progressive positions, often our journeys out of more conservative back grounds and beliefs systems, but that wouldn't be where any newcomer to the site would be likely to begin exploring to understand what we are about. We so often share with one another about such postings how someone else's story has so much in common with our own, finding an immediate point of connection with one another grounded in shared experiences. A newbie venturing in here might very well experience the same kind of reaction, same sense of kinship and commonality, but, for it not being placed where it might immediately draw their attention, they never encounter it.

 

Jenell

[murmsk]

perhaps we need a section where folks can go through the process together maybe with a mentor of sorts. I think the pieces are here it is just a matter of putting things together so a wanderer can find what her or she needs.

 

steve

[JenellYB]

 

I can tell you from my point of view .. faith or spirituality or what ever you call it is meant to be shared. We have a responsibility to society to challenge as we are being challenged. It takes determination, confidence and thick skin.

.......

MLK said it best in his letter from the Birmingham jail when he said we speak with our silence.

........

I have come to really enjoy this place. While most of you are so far above my head I often fell I have nothing of worth to add, I read and learn from all of you. I do feel that at times this place acts as a bit of a sanctuary for some cheating society of a message that they desperately need to hear

......

 

steve

 

This is a line of thought that seems just isn't going to let go of me....

 

While seeking and finding community with like-minded others, even if just in the context of on-line communications and occasional opportunties to visit with those too distant from home for regular, daily personal contact and interaction, has been and remains very important to me and for my sense of well-being as well as continued learning and growth, there remains that annoying, nagging prick of conscience that this journey is not just about my comfort, my growth, what community can give me, but about giving, contributing, toward others on their journey as well. That as we seek ourselves challenge that gives us opportunity to expand, grow, make it just a little bit further along the path, so are others seeking that, and what we have to offer just might sometime be what they are seeking and need in their own journey.

 

When we put that into a context of participation within communty, what that can mean can be quite discomforting, even scary. Entering a community in which most members and participants are very different from ourselves in ideas, beliefs, perspectives, world-view, in very basic ways that make up and define who we are, it is inevitable that we open ourselves and those others up to points of conflict. We are ourself going to be conflicted between risk of conflict between ourself and those others if we openly engage, and conflict within ourself if we take the course of staying under cover, staying silent of issues that may lead to points of conflict with others, the general position of the group. It can feel like a choice between going into battle in armoured battle gear, to protect ourself, sword and shield in hand, to defend ourself, or skulking around in the shadows garbed in a cloak of invisibility. And in either case, fully, often painfully, aware, that it is WE that have entered those others' home turf, that WE are the interlopers into THEIR territory. It is an entirely different matter than staying in our own little comfortable world, where we can feel we are standing should to shoulder with others like ourselves, waiting for them to find and come to us. It can seem to demand we move into a seeker mode very different from that of our own, toward our own journey and growth. It can seem we are in some sense diverting from our own forward quest in our own journey, to pause on the path to help provide challenge someone else in theirs.

 

But maybe that, too, is a part of our own process of seeking further into growth along our own path. The transition from disciple to apostle doesn't mean to abandon our own continued journey as disciples, it merely opens up a new level on our own path in our own journey. Good old Ego kicks in with defenses even as i write that. Yeah, but, but...

 

Yeah, but, it IS their territory, their home, where they feel comfortable and safe, they have every right to resent someone coming in and disturbing their sense of comfort, safety. Yeah, but, if they really want to seek beyond where they are, isn't it their right to decide when and how to do it, not mine to go impose it upon them?

 

Yeah, but they will not LIKE me! Yeah, but i will experience rejection, even hostility. Yeah, but I'll get hurt! Yeah, there it is, isn't it?

Yeah, Ego is kicking into high gear now....Shut up, Jenell! I don't like where this is going! This kind of thinking has never come to anything good, Jenell, you know that....it always ends up getting us someplace where we are going to get smashed again, you know that, Jenell....so let's just shut up, and not go there, ok?

 

And if that doesn't do the trick, well, Jenell, just what makes you think you're any smarter than anyone else? What makes you think you actually have something of value to offer someone else's needs, anyway? Just who do you think you are, Jenell? Some messenger of God or something?

 

And we realize the first choice we are going to have to make between going in in full battle armor with sword and shield in hand, or just skulking around in the shadows garded in a cloak of invisibilty, is going to be against our own self!

 

It also means I have to clarify my real goals and motivation to myself, in myself, before I even contemplate entering such a fray. It means clarifying to myself, would i be going in with motive and intent to challenge toward overcoming, defeating, an enemy, or to seek to find an uneasy and empty companionship based on inconspicuously blending in, pretending to be a native? To be honest, neither course seems to me likely to accomplish anything positive for me or anyone else. Its a choice between lose-lose propositions.

 

The only way I see out of that dilemma is that I'd have forge a new option, one that at least has the potential of win-win, that offers something for me in my own positive growth, and at once, something toward the positive experience and growth of any others i may contact. First thing, as I see it, I'm going to have to take off and put aside both that suit of armor and shield and sword, and that invisiblity cloak. It means going in as....ME!

 

Well, Ego is really starting to panic and scream here...NO! Jenell you CAN'T! You'll be NAKED! No! Jenell, I can't do that! I won't do that! If you try something like that, I won't go with you! You'll have to go in alone! By yourself! NAKED! I won't be there to PROTECT you!

 

Well, how 'bout that, Ego, we just got to the core of it all, didn't we? But you know what Ego? Your threat to refuse to go in with me, to leave me to face it alone, is empty now. It's empty because I just recognized what you are....you are that suit of battle armor, sword and shield, and cloak of invisibility I just realized I need to take off and lay down and walk away from.

 

 

jenell

[themoreilearnthelessiknow]

Thank God for Google! Tonight I decided to google "liberal christianity" and PC.org came up. Which led me to this great forum! So I guess in a weird way the answer to the original post is that "we should always be ready to provide an alternative". If not for the people who created this site I would never have stumbled upon an online forum about progressive Christianity.

 

As a member of a "fundamentalist" church for close to 25 years there were times when I was exposed to progressive ideas but I often shot them down, saying to myself: "that's not Christian." But over time my beliefs were challenged by sources that I sought out, rather than ones crammed down my throat. So I guess in a way I am not recommending evangelism for progressive Christianity but rather support for those who voice concerns over fundamentalism.

 

Like good teachers, we should help facilitate progressive ideals in people, as opposed to bad teachers who tell their students what to think.

[JosephM]

Greetings the moreilearnthelessiknow,

 

Welcome to the forum and thanks for your input. Perhaps you could be so kind to more formally introduce yourself in the introductions area so we could better get to know more about you.and perhaps address you with a shorter first name Your background so far sounds familiar with the experience of many here.

 

Joseph

[themoreilearnthelessiknow]

Hello Joseph

 

Sorry for the secrecy but I'd like to keep on the down low when on the net.

 

Addressing me as Chris, is fine.

 

Yes, it appears that after reading a few messages here, I have finally found others who question/wonder along the same lines as me. I have been exposed to similar thinking in publications like "Geez" and the writings of Karen Armstrong but it's nice to have actual people I can write too!

[BillM]

Hi Chris.

 

Welcome!

 

I'm a big fan of Karen Armstrong, her books, and the Charter for Compassion.

 

I think you're right, we are definately a bunch of questioners and wonderers. And we do a lot of that here without the pressure of orthodoxy or tradition or authority weighing heavily upon us. We are more like a group of free spirits exploring the Spirit of freedom.

 

If you'd like to read more of our own personal journeys, you can find them in the Personal Stories and Journeys section. And you are, of course, welcome to post your own there if you would like.

 

Bill