Savior Of The Klingons?

[des]

Ok, you prob. all have seen this one but I never have really discussed it. I think the Klingon part is to draw attention to it, but the basic premise goes like this. There are prob. planets inhabited by intelligent beings that don't look anything like us. Perhaps they are even uglier than Klingons. Anyway maybe they have two heads and are grey and scaley.

So do they need a savior? Being "human" (I mean mortal), I'm imagining they sin.

Of course I dont' believe in substitional sacrifice, but I do believe Jesus was more than a mere man. And I believe more in the Cosmic Christ as Matt Fox describes, that is that Jesus *was* Christ but that is possible there is Christ in other places and other situations.

So what about our two headed friends? Does God come to them in some way that is mystical?

 

Any comments?

 

--des

[Lolly]

So what about our two headed friends? Does God come to them

 

Sure. I don't see why he wouldn't.

 

It's only fairly recently in the history of mankind that we've known and understood that the Earth isn't all there is, seated at the center of the universe. Earlier people spoke in terms of what they could see and understand-- which would have been this earth and what is on it-- but I don't see why God's love and care wouldn't extend throughout all creation.

 

And now that we know that all creation is much bigger than just one ball of dirt orbiting around one sun, it makes sense to me that God's love for creation would be just as big.

[Ani-man]

Des I think you have been watching too many "Star Trek" episodes

 

I think there are probably other planets with life on them, statistically the odds say there are many, but what about each planet's current progress in time as it relates to the life thereon?

Humanity as we know it hasn't existed but a fraction of a second out of the history of Earth, Mars could have had life it certainly had water and apparently oceans millions of years ago, any life there would have evolved and died out way back then- long before Earth life as we know it.

 

We send out radio signals towards other planets, but unless life there had progressed to have the ability to "read" the signals they wont get them, and they woudl have to only be 200 years behind us in science progress to miss the signals totally.

200 years advanced and maybe our signals would be so primitive they would have nothing to pick them up with.

 

Here's what I mailed Des a while back, sort of related;

 

 

 

Some of the rock/cave drawings appear to depict some very odd things that look like men in space suits and flying objects that could be depictions of aircraft.

 

Two issues that begs explanations, the first is the rock/cave drawings as well as ancient pictographs in the desert which depict animals etc but can only be seen what they are from high up in the air, at ground level you can't see them, go in a helicopter and the scenes come to life, perfectly scaled and "drawn out" though primitive of course.

 

The other is in Revelations and elsewhere, detailed descriptions of "wheels in the sky" that could move in any direction rapidly and made a horrific noise like a lot of waterfalls. They are further described as having "eyes all around". There is also a description of "Cherubim" who can move similarly. Then the New Jerusalem is described, basically math conversion shows it would be a 1500 mile cube, it mentions 7 "foundations" gates made of a single large pearl, transparent gold, adorned with colored gemstones and needing no light from the sun as it comes from within.

 

Ok so maybe I've watched one too many episodes of Star Trek with Captain Kirk, but from the text descriptions I can only visualize some sort of alien ships, call them UFO's if want to cause the Govt and media would!

The "eyes all around" the rim of the "wheel" sounds a lot like portholes, the Cherubim's "wings" which logistically don't make sense could have been the only thing those primitive people could describe as a motive force for an alien visitor wearing some kind of device- call it a jet pack or whatever. The primitive people could only fathom for flight- bird wings, so that is how they could best describe it.

 

The 7 "foundations" on the New Jerusalem- floors or levels? transparent gold- they use this on astronaut's helmet visors to protect against UV, adorned with gemstones- some kind of lights maybe from portholes or running lights? You watch a 747 land at night and it can look like a UFO with all those lights...

Light from within- some kind of generation system that provided lights like we have today?

 

You drop a 747, a jet pack, a laser or flashlight, maybe a helicopter back in time 2000 years in front of people who make fire rubbing two sticks together and live in mud huts and how would anyone explain them other than in such terms and descriptions of them?

 

One silly explanation for the wheels was "Oh those were God's chariot wheels"

Chariot wheels?? you mean like the Romans had?? but the Roman's wheels didn't have "eyes all around" and then it also begs the question of why would God need a CHARIOT and wouldn't that be rather slow? why would wheels be needed in deep space where there is nothing for them to turn on?

 

So I think the chariot explanation is out...

The New Jerusalem, first thought would be why would God need basically a space ship to travel in? and a 1500 mile cube is not very large relatively speaking for a "kingdom" or much else.

 

 

We still can't explain how the pyramids were built or fathom how primitive people with nothing somehow managed to cut and move over 5 million blocks of stone over some distances and then haul them up- including some huge ones I recall were estimated to weigh something like 65,000 pounds each and for the CEILING of a chamber, and how they fit so well a credit card can't slide between them.

 

With so many religions around the planet I have a problem believing any single one is 100% correct, they all have some form of deity/creator in common, call him Budha, God, Jehovah, Allah or whatever. The Christian religion claims the others wont get to go to heaven, yet oddly enough the Muslims say basically the same thing about non Muslims! Then you have reincarnation and all the rest- and every one of them has their own good books, writings, scriptures, beliefs and are convinced THEY are right and everyone else is wrong.

 

I think the ancients probably saw things they couldn't fathom, maybe visitors from another place or time- call them Martians or Captain Kirk and Mr Spock landing in a probe or transporter beam, and much of all of these religions were based on all of this, it certainly seems to fill in missing pieces and makes some sense, a lot more than Noah and a huge flood.

[des]

> Des I think you have been watching too many "Star Trek" episodes

 

Funny thing, that's true!! :-)

 

>We send out radio signals towards other planets, but unless life there had progressed to have the ability to "read" the signals they wont get them, and they woudl have to only be 200 years behind us in science progress to miss the signals totally.

200 years advanced and maybe our signals would be so primitive they would have nothing to pick them up with.

 

Well of course, as I think the great agnostic, Carl Sagon once said-- "absense of evidence isn't evidence of absense". Btw, his book Contact (vs the movie-- good but not as good as the book) is really (gosh I know the guy says he doesn't know if there is a God, but the book is really full of the just way bigger than any of us (i can't think of the word, numiscent or something).

 

Granted I'm not sure we will ever *see* these four eyed or two headed things. Not for a long long time, if ever. It is one of those questions. Unanswerable but fun to play with.

 

I answered this stuff in an email to him. I don't think he'd mind my reproducing it here.

 

>Some of the rock/cave drawings appear to depict some very odd things that look like men in space suits and flying objects that could be depictions of aircraft.'

 

Yes, but it is hard to "translate" such pictures because they could have been other

things as well, the imaginary, gods, etc.

 

>Two issues that begs explanations, the first is the rock/cave drawings as well as ancient pictographs in the desert which depict animals etc but can only be seen what they are from high up in the air, at ground level you can't see them, go in a helicopter and the scenes come to life, perfectly scaled and "drawn out" though primitive of course.

 

Well I had a teacher (actually it was a not for credit course) at the Planetarium in Chicago. She was an astronomer who had studied the lines of Nazca in Peru (they are maybe one of the more famous lines like this). She was much more interested in more earthly explanations. Actually making them would have been simple-- if time consuming, using cord, the lines could be very straight. BTW, a lot of the lines line up with certain star pattterns, etc. The patterns she felt were of constellations, for example, there is a spider, and that is what we call Orion (I think it is a better spider btw). They felt it was for the

vantage point of gods, not alien visitors.

 

She also warned about trying to figure out ancient perspectives from our vantage point.

She talked about how an architectural feature on the planetarium actually matches the

winter soltice, talked about the guy's name and possible symbology etc.

 

Needless to say ti was interesting, but I don't remember all the details.

 

>The other is in Revelations and elsewhere,

 

Ezkelial (sp?) describes a wheel. (Maybe Revelations as well.)

There was even an old UFO program on TV (circa the 60s sometime that talked

about Ez's wheel as a UFO.) It coulda been, who knows.

 

>detailed descriptions of "wheels in the sky" that could move in any direction rapidly and made a horrific noise like a lot of waterfalls.

 

BTW, most current UFO reports (not as many lately btw) are noiseless. I know as I read *everything* serious about them a number of years ago.

 

>They are further described as having "eyes all around". There is also a description of "Cherubim" who can move similarly. Then the New Jerusalem is described, basically math conversion shows it would be a 1500 mile cube, it mentions 7 "foundations" gates made of a single large pearl, transparent gold, adorned with colored gemstones and needing no light from the sun as it comes from within.

 

I think that Revelations is the first sci-fi. Honestly I wonder if the guy was takign something though. :-)

 

>Ok so maybe I've watched one too many episodes of Star Trek with Captain Kirk, but from the text descriptions I can only visualize some sort of alien ships, call them UFO's if want to cause the Govt and media would!

The "eyes all around" the rim of the "wheel" sounds a lot like portholes, the Cherubim's "wings" which logistically don't make sense could have been the only thing those primitive people could describe as a motive force for an alien visitor wearing some kind of device- call it a jet pack or whatever. The primitive people could only fathom for flight- bird wings, so that is how they could best describe it.

 

 

Well there is an interesting book by Jacques Vallee who was a UFO investigator and sociologist back in the 60s or 70s and the inspiration for the character Claude Lacombe in Close Encounters. In the book "Passport to Magonia" , 1969 (just looked this all up!) he describes how UFOs themselves may be part of some kind of experience that was common in all cultures at all times but was explained different ways, perhaps some paranormal type phenonmena. For example, when there were lots of balloons and air ships, there were beings that came from air ships but they were much faster and travelled farther, the beings were strange in various ways. How do you explain an air ship as a UFO--- you can't. But like UFOs they had things in common. They appeared they were very fast or came out of no where at times, the people were unusual looking and/or acting. Now that we have space travel, people have different expectations. Back in Bible times they had expectations of religious experiences that may have been grandeous.

 

>One silly explanation for the wheels was "Oh those were God's chariot wheels"

Chariot wheels?? you mean like the Romans had?? but the Roman's wheels didn't have "eyes all around" and then it also begs the question of why would God need a CHARIOT and wouldn't that be rather slow? why would wheels be needed in deep space where there is nothing for them to turn on?

 

Well it's possible that these were like the air ships? People basically had expectations or needs for certain type of experiences and these appeared to be lilke chariot wheels.

So people actually *did* see or recall (or however) Chariots in the Sky, as their paranormal experience.

 

Of course this is one explanation. And it still begs the question as to what these all actually are, if anything or are they somehow educed somehow as part of our collective imagination. For example, there are more UFO reports on earthquake fault lines, as if these may , in some individuals cause hallucinations or illusions at certain times.

 

>We still can't explain how the pyramids were built or fathom how primitive people with nothing somehow managed to cut and move over 5 million blocks of stone over some distances and then haul them up- including some huge ones I recall were estimated to weigh something like 65,000 pounds each and for the CEILING of a chamber, and how they fit so well a credit card can't slide between them.

 

Well I don't know about that one. I saw a project on PBS where someone made a small pyramid. He didn't have many people, but he basically did a lot of the things they did.

The stones were not dragged as far, etc.

Could aliens have built them, maybe? Or could thousands and thousands of people done it using similar type methods, maybe?

 

 

>With so many religions around the planet I have a problem believing any single one is 100% correct, they all have some form of deity/creator in common, call him Budha, God, Jehovah, Allah or whatever. The Christian religion claims the others wont get to go to heaven, yet oddly enough the Muslims say basically the same thing about non Muslims! Then you have reincarnation and all the rest- and every one of them has their own good books, writings, scriptures, beliefs and are convinced THEY are right and everyone else is wrong.

 

Yes, I would agree with that. I do not take an exclusivist view of religion. I basically think

each offers something new and perhaps some bit of truth. And also that they basically are relevant to a particular place and time.

 

I think the ancients probably saw things they couldn't fathom, maybe visitors from another place or time- call them Martians or Captain Kirk and Mr Spock landing in a probe or transporter beam,

 

Well maybe? But the whole of the world is a mystery, why do things happen as they do?

And much of all of these religions were based on all of this, it certainly seems to fill in missing pieces and makes some sense, a lot more than Noah and a huge flood.

 

 

I am basically a skeptic on UFO, even though I have read tons of UFO literature (serious

stuff mostly). I dont' believe that it ISN'T true, but I dont' feel we have compelling evidence

that it is. What we basically have are tantilizing bits of evidence, some better than others,

and lots fo eye witness reports but mostly one or two people.

 

BTW, there was a very famous and apparently pretty well regarded UFO siting of the third kind (alien visitors) in Soccorro NM which isn' t that far from where I live (Albuquerque).

NM has a really high incidence of reports. But I don't hold real much stock in the infamous Roswell one. The Soccorro one is really well documented, whereas the Roswell one kind of came up years and years later.

 

>Animan

 

 

--des

[AletheiaRivers]

numiscent or something

 

Numinous?

 

The chariot, the cherubim and the New Jeruselem as alien. LOL.

 

That's funny! Awesome idea! I'll never read Revelation the same way again.

 

Aletheia

 

PS: I thought you said you were working on your "quoting skills"?

 

PPS: Kidding! You know I'm kidding? Good!

[des]

Numinous? 

 

Right right. But who needs to use this in a sentence elsewhere? :-)

 

 

That's funny! Awesome idea! I'll never read Revelation the same way again.

 

I try to avoid reading Revelation. Honest, it is just too out there. It goes beyond my ability to suspend disbelief--- I like something more believable, say Klingons. :-)

 

PS: I thought you said you were working on your "quoting skills"? 

PPS: Kidding! You know I'm kidding? Good!

 

Aletheia

 

Well I do fine with little posts, but when I have to quote ten, well it's too much. I revert to my unix days (I invented the internet along with my good friend Al. )

And yes, I do know you are kidding. And think it is sort of funny. Old habits die hard.

 

 

--des

[kiwimac]

Surely the Saviour of the Klingons is Kahless?

 

Kiwimac

[des]

Surely the Saviour of the Klingons is Kahless?

 

Kiwimac 

 

An excellent supposition! Kahless was known for much wisdom and some miracles of his own. Did not he throw his hair into the ocean to form a bacleth?

He also had a sort of second coming? :-)

Gee, a trekker after my own heart. Welcome.

 

 

--des

[ComradeInChrist]

We still can't explain how the pyramids were built or fathom how primitive people with nothing somehow managed to cut and move over 5 million blocks of stone over some distances and then haul them up- including some huge ones I recall were estimated to weigh something like 65,000 pounds each and for the CEILING of a chamber, and how they fit so well a credit card can't slide between them.

 

You have to realize that ancient people weren't unsophisticated, they just hadn't advanced as far as we have technologically. A good place to start on how our ancesters accomplished these things is "The Ancient Engineers" by L. Sprague DeCamp. Our ancestors were a pretty ingenious bunch!

[des]

The Nova special that showed a group of people building a pyramid the size of the very tip pyramid clearly showed how it was possible to build the pyramids using very ancient technologies-- sleds, catapaults, levers, etc. Of course there were thousands and thousands doing this. But it was doable. (BTW, if it comes round again, which these things tend to, it was quite an interesting program. They do have anthropologists that spend their time not just studying ancient cultures but trying to learn technologies and skills as well. For example they can make a workable flint the old fashioned way.)

 

And hear I thought you might be writing about Kahless. :-)

 

--des

[kiwimac]

An excellent supposition! Kahless was known for much wisdom and some miracles of his own. Did not he throw his hair into the ocean to form a bacleth?

He also had a sort of second coming? :-)

Gee, a trekker after my own heart. Welcome.

--des

 

Qapla!

[October's Autumn]

Where is Des?

[McKenna]

Where is Des?

 

I've been wondering that as well!

 

He was the one who recommended TCPC to me...we met over at Religious Forums.

 

Come back Des!