Hijacking "christian"

[des]

We started discussing this in another thread, so I thought (for fear of thread hijacking :-))

to start a new one. I am reading Stealing Jesus, which has a whole lot of the idea of the term Christian getting hijacked. I think it is true. Christian has come to mean, even for non-Christians that you believe a certain group of beliefs that really not all Christians share, and

they are fundamentalist. They mean right wing, and it will follow that you believe homosexuality to be a sin and so forth. I agree with Beach that Evangelical was also hijacked. And he's prob. right that it's for good.

 

And he also talked about how hard it is to change a word after it has changed meanings. Gay is the example he gave. I don't think you can use that word anymore except for meaning homosexual. And the word f***, btw, meant to plant. Try using that in a sentence that way. And intercourse used to mean the interaction, not necessarily sexual.

There is Intercourse PA. Glad I don't live there, mail orders would be so embarrassing!

 

This is all true. But do we really want them to hijack the term Christian? You know according to fundies (sorry but I don't like funds. ) Catholics are not Christian, and many Protestians in the US and pretty much most Christians in other countries (in fact, my sister is in Europe as she feels that they are so Godless over there).

 

OTOH, when the press talks about Christian voters and means fundies, not sure what there is we can do about it.

 

--des

[SweetTea]

I'm not sure what to do about it either, but I did read a GREAT essay on the subject. No Longer A Christian talks about what we can do on an individual basis to reconcile our beliefs with an increasingly radical "Christian" majority. I think it's worth a read for anyone interested in the corruption of Christian Ideals.

 

I think it's possible that in THIS country, we can reverse this trend, but it requires that the progressive community really get organized and put out a clear, coherent statement about what we believe. We need to get our vocal leaders, like Dr. Spong, for example, on the 700 Club countering the lies and hatred, going head to head with right-wing pundits disguised as men of God.

 

It seems pretty obvious to me that this wierd "fundie" movement has only gained real popular support in this country very recently.... In fact, my father says that when he was in college, no one in the "establishment" would have seriously acknowledged ANY movement that was so exclusive, racist, sexist, and counter-progressive. And my father grew up in rural South Carolina and went to College at Greensboro College, in Greensboro, NC.... A private, United Methodist school. But the collective conciousness of our country has slowly shifted right (for various reasons..... but that's a whole other thread), and now, the radical views of the right don't seem quite so radical anymore, and the more moderate and logical (and constitutional) ideology of the progressive movement is getting lost in the shuffle.

 

You see, ever since Jesus was crucified, there have ALWAYS been people who wanted to manipulate Jesus' power over our hearts and minds for their own gains. There have always (since before King James, the fabulous jerk who made sure the English Bible suited his purposes politically) been people who would like to turn Christianity backwards. It's been going on literally since the beginning of the Christian faith. So naturally, this age should be no different than any other.

 

I think what's important is that each individual hold on to their own precious beliefs, and that we ensure that progressive Christian communities continue to thrive. We need to give our testimonies to those who show interest in learning about Jesus. But ABOVE ALL ELSE..... We must be absolutely sure that we do not behave as hypocrites, and we must embrace different opinions and ideas. We must be careful not to become an exclusive club, but also that we do not stray from our values in order to include others. This is a dangerous tightrope to walk, but we have to do it, I'm afraid.

 

If we're going to get the message out there, we have to be louder, more compelling, and more persistent than the "false prophets". Are we up to it? Who knows.

 

-Tea

[BeachOfEden]

Oh the fundies never cease to 'try' and gain the copy rights to the word "Christian" if you go on the Evangelical sites on Beliefnet you will always see this effort...They can not sucess with this...but they never stop trying. The best thing we Progressive can do is counter-act this by making make pages to expose this effort. It is well known to Protestants that the Evangelicals DO indeed label all the non-Protestants, Catholics, Mormons, JWs and Christian Science as Un-Christian "CULTS." And the Evangelicals, even the Light ones don;t really care about this...But 'if' we were to HIGHLIGHT that the Evangelicals are ALSO labbling their moderate and Progressive PROTESTANT peers as UN-Christian "CULTS," then they just might feel very differently about slamming their own spiritual kin.

 

"I think it's possible that in THIS country, we can reverse this trend, but it requires that the progressive community really get organized and put out a clear, coherent statement about what we believe."

 

YES! Progressives 'NEED' to learn how to innerfaith with moderates to help get the NON-far right a voice..load enough so the majority will listen.

 

"We need to get our vocal leaders, like Dr. Spong, for example, on the 700 Club countering the lies and hatred, going head to head with right-wing pundits disguised as men of God."

 

 

No, I don;t think so..not on TBN or 700 Club cause they will edit it the way the regular news does the Bush movement. ...

 

WE 'NEED' get Progressive people like Matthew Fox and Sponge their OWN tv shows..NOT ON TBN but on regular channels like KCLA..on Sunday mornings to complete with the flood on tv tv Evangelicals. Maybe create an hour long show live from the a Progressive Church in Hollywood. and have TCPC sponsor it and avertise their books on it. Have different Progressive Christian speakers as guests and/or progressive christian musice artist and actors/actresses. Also we NEED a FREE Progressive Christian newspaper or zine like HopeDance..accept the focus would not be souly poltical like HopeDance is and then all of us help circulate them and leave them at natural food markets and cafes around out towns.

[SweetTea]

Which works very well in areas where there are natural food markets and a large enough progressive community to support something like that. You must be from California or possibly the Pacific Northwest. That's just a guess.

 

I'm from the mountains of Southwest Virginia. There's a different culture here. Progressive Christians don't have organised churches here. Even the Unitarian Universalists have only a VERY small foothold here. There is no UCC. I attend an evangelical United Methodist Church. It is the most liberal church in my town. You would call it fundie-filled hell.

 

There are no natural food co-ops here.... We have Kroger and Winn-Dixie, and the ever popular Wal-Mart Supercenter. We have a few coffee shops where artists and free thinkers gather, but it's very fake and cliche. Really, being progressive here means being independant, and allying with those few other progressives you can find. I have lived in the most liberal city in the country (Washington, DC), and one of the most fundementalist (Atlanta), and I can tell you, the majority of the south is a whole different world than that of the Pacific coast or the New England states.

 

I live in a literal battlefield. There are currently not enough progressive Christians in this area to fund even a newsletter, much less a website, TV show, or advertising campaign. But THIS is where the message needs to be heard. That's why I propose infiltrating THEIR programming.... Maybe not the 700 Club or anything THAT extreme.... But something on a national scale. Something that conservatives watch. And that way, the communities that have large progressive populations can share their resources with those (like mine) who have so few.

 

Perhaps if there were a national alternative to shows like the 700 Club.... But it would still be up to the affiliates to pick it up..... I dunno.... It's a tough problem.

 

-Tea

[BeachOfEden]

Maybe leave them at the coffee shops then?

[Lolly]

I am not sure how best to make people aware that such a thing as progressive Christianity is possible, but I agree that it needs more press.

 

That being said, one of the things I have observed time and time to not work well in conversation is to go up against another person in an argumentative way, challenging their closely held ideals and beliefs.

 

I think there are a couple of things I'd bear in mind when talking to other Christians (or non-christians, for that matter).

 

One is that you can't convert a zealot. They are too self-identified with their beliefs and will only use your challenge as an opportunity to dig in their heels and repeat well worn rhetoric.

 

Another is that no one wants to be told that their beliefs are wrong. I am a bit uncomfortable with the idea that it's my responsibility to "convert" anyone. After all, no one converted me. I still go to my zen group, still participate there and still receive teachings from my teacher.

 

When I began to come into harmony with Christ and felt compelled to seek baptism, I also felt strongly that my new understanding of Christ's love did not pose a conflict with what I was already doing in zen. Instead, I found them complimentary, and I wasn't willing to stop doing one to participate in the other.

 

I spoke with my rector about this and she was willing to accept me into the congregation exactly as I am. I was very honest with her, and there was nothing I expressed to her that caused any alarm. So I was baptized.

 

When I talk to others (on both sides) about religion and belief, I can usually tell whether someone is likely to be more or less open minded (or at least polite) about what I have to say. Since I believe that religion-done-right helps people, it's not out of the question that I might want to offer them some taste of how it helps me, but I can't offer this to someone whose mind is closed. It's futile.

 

I liken this to the way I eat ice cream from a carton-- there's a soft area around the edges that's easy to dig a spoon into, and a hard area in the middle. I don't start with the hard part first... I look for the softer part around the edges. When enough time passes, the part that was hard gets softer, too.

 

I think people can also be like that. So I look for the ones along the edge, so to speak, and hope the others will soften in time.

[BeachOfEden]

Well, the idea I was getting at is not like what the Evangelicals do where they pretend to be whatever you like in hopes of converting you over. the idea would not be to try and trick Evangelicals into becoming Progressive...Rather the zine or mag would simply say, We believe Christianity does not have to be repressive or rigid to be effective", that sort of thing. The idea would be if there ARE Evangelical Lights out there who,'if' they knew Progressive christianity DOES exist..they might discover they ARE already one!

[AletheiaRivers]

... if they knew Progressive christianity DOES exist..they might discover they ARE already one!

 

I totally hear ya there.

 

Reading and participating over at bnet I'm surprised at how many self described conservative Christians say something like:

 

"I'm fundamentalist, but I don't believe Jesus was God or that homosexuality is a sin or that women can't be priests or that there is such a thing as hell ... etc ... etc ... etc ... "

 

If someone mentions to them that they might not actually be "conservative" they don't like that at all.

 

"Yes I am TOO conservative!"

 

But I can understand the resistance to change. Change is definitely NOT easy.

 

Aletheia

[Lolly]

BeachOfEden:

 

The idea would be if there ARE Evangelical Lights out there who,'if' they knew Progressive christianity DOES exist..they might discover they ARE already one!

 

Yes! Exactly

[BeachOfEden]

Here's the idea. A collective effort of Progressive christians start a free Progressive Christian newspaper and we offer to circulate them. Advertisements for Progressive Christian books or Progs that own buinesses could be used to help pay for the mag. Cool cafes could be advertized as well. Want ads,ect. TCPC could ask the different churches on their listings if they'd like to advertise their churches. Book reviews could be sent in. Stories about Progressive christians helping their communties. . Has anyone ever checked out the free liberal newspaper called HopeDance? I could find the link and post it to get some ideas.

[BeachOfEden]

Ok, here is HopeDance

 

Now, keep in mind this is a liberal political mag, but noticed HOW they advertise and circulate. Something like this? Maybe?

[irreverance]

Regarding "Evangelical Lites":

 

There is a movement out there known as "Emergent." Their main site is Emergent Village. Basically, this is a group coming out of an evangelical background who are wrestling with what the significance of the postmodern shift is for evangelicalism. I've been to a couple of their gatherings; they're a great group.

[DCJ]

In fact, my father says that when he was in college, no one in the "establishment" would have seriously acknowledged ANY movement that was so exclusive, racist, sexist

See, it's this kind of extremist, hate-filled rhetoric that makes dialog impossible. Try this instead:

But ABOVE ALL ELSE.....  We must be absolutely sure that we do not behave as hypocrites, and we must embrace different opinions and ideas.

 

The so-called "fundamentalist" movement of the early 1900s was an attempt to preserve the "fundamentals" of the Christian faith from the tide of anti-Christian Enlightenment thought that was sweeping Western civilization. Their beliefs were mostly in line with the Reformers, as well as with major Christian doctrines held throughout the centuries. You could say that the same thing is happening now: certain groups are trying to re-define Christian orthodoxy that has been held for centuries. So, in regards to this thread's title, which side is doing the hijacking?

[BeachOfEden]

Well, WHO is it that is going around calling EVERY faith that does NOT agree with 'their' interpretations of the bible as "CULTS."? is it the Progressive Christians? The Moderate? Secondly, this bunch that IS doing this, do THEY even consider their beliefs as 'interpretations'..at ALL?

[BeachOfEden]

..I mean has ANYONE here EVER heard of a called-tagger group aka "anti-cult movement being ran by a Prebysterian? A United Methodists or any mainstream protestant? Or are they not ALWAYS by Southern Baptists and Pentacostals?

[Seeking]

Xian, I really enjoyed looking over the Emergent Village site. Kinda felt like going home. I didn't get thru all of it, but plan to delve further into it. I can definately see how someone coming out of harse fundamentalism would relate to this movement.

 

Gosh, there just aren't any groups of these or any kind that would be close enough for us to get involved in. A 3-4 hour drive is a bit hard on us. Sigh.

But we so need the fellowship of other seekers.

 

I love this site, also. I came here 3-4 years ago, but there wasn't really much particapation on the boards, so I let it go. I really enjoy the ongoing "conversations" that I find here.

[Gaston]

Well, I'm an independant Quaker who has just discovered the 8 point system here. It's interesting and all, but I have a feeling there's still some orthodoxy that we're missing (albeit if you don't believe Jesus died for your salvation, what's the point of being a Christian, so that's not really what I'm talking about)

 

I need to look at more threads now.

 

 

Gaston

[BeachOfEden]

"albeit if you don't believe Jesus died for your salvation, what's the point of being a Christian."

 

I believe Jesus died for all. The difference, I see between my Progressive christianity verses what I see in Fundamental Christianity..is that Fundamentalist Christians have a members-ONLY (aka Evangelical Protestant) salvation.

[DCJ]

"albeit if you don't believe Jesus died for your salvation, what's the point of being a Christian."

 

I believe Jesus died for all. The difference, I see between my Progressive christianity verses what I see in Fundamental Christianity..is that Fundamentalist Christians have a members-ONLY (aka Evangelical Protestant) salvation.

You believe that people can be saved after they die by accepting Jesus, correct? How is this post-death "members-only" salvation different from a pre-death "members-only" salvation?

[BeachOfEden]

There is a Catch-22/contridiction amoungst the fundamental protestantism's interpretation of salvation in which they 'say' Jesus died for ALL...but in reality to THEM even if one claims to have accepted Jesus as savior if they are Catholic or Mormon or anything OTHER than an Evangelical Protestants, then these Evangelicals will deny that your salvation is valid or real..and that IS the catch-22 or the "Members-ONLY" salvation theory. Being " a member" here with the Evangelicals equals being one of THEM, an Evangelical and if you are NOT an Evangelical Protestnat, then to THEM..there is NO salvation.

 

As a Progressive christian, 'I" do not believe that one HAS to belong to Evangelical Protestantism or any group to get your salvation valid are REAL. I have NO "cath-22 or "members-ONLY" salvation theory in my faith or relationship with God.

[SweetTea]

OK.... See, I think there are some serious problems with the way the progressive movement handles this issue, but I think I differ from everyone else here when I say that I do not believe that the progressive movement has been aggressive or plain enough in its message to affect any real change in the perception of Christianity in the United States.

 

First of all.... In every faith, there are ALWAYS people who get it wrong. In Christianity, there have been alot of people who have gotten it wrong. In Islam, there are the strict fundementalists of THAT faith who declare Jihad on all "infidels", or unbelievers. There are many pagans I know who are manipulating their faith for the wrong reasons. We have to recognise that sometimes people just get it WRONG.

 

And when we recognize that someone has it wrong.... Not that they hold the "wrong" faith, but when they harm others through their misinterpretation (deliberate or not) of the teachings of their religion.... I believe it is my responsibility to point that hypocrisy out in no uncertain terms.

 

When there is no distinction between what is right and what is wrong because we want to accept everyone's beliefs, there is a serious problem. I don't propose that we become more fundementalist in our approach..... Just that we define exactly what it is we stand for, because right now it's guite fuzzy.

 

Perhaps the reason a dialogue hasn't opened is because right-wing fundies are having such a fantastic job WINNING! They don't NEED to talk to us. No amount of nicey nicey talk is going to fix that. It's time to draw a line in the sand.

 

I for one am very very tired of being called "immoral" and "unpatriotic" because of my progressive ideas. It makes me want to stand up and say "NO! That's WRONG! I love God, and my country, and THAT is why I hold both the Constitution AND the Bible close to my heart, and that is why I can not let you tear down my beautiful faith or question my love for my country any more, ever again!"..... maybe that's what we finally need to do.

 

We have followed Christ's message.... we have turned the other cheek at every attack, we have prayed for those who would hurt us, we have been patient and kind and gracious. While we were doing all of those admirable things, we were ignoring one very important responsibility that we have as Christians.... Which is to protect and preserve the sacred message of Christ, and to assure that it never is used irresponsibly or to promote personal gains, but instead, the Word should be used ONLY TO GLORIFY GOD. So yes.... We almost got it right. But, as my father says, "almost only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades."

 

And now we're on damage control. I live 45 minutes from Liberty University. It's less than 50 miles to Jerry Falwell's house from my apartment. All these people hear is THAT message..... It doesn't matter if you're Baptist, Presbeterian, Methodist, Lutheran.... Maybe you could get away from it if you went to an African Methodist Episcopal church or the "liberal" episcopal church across town.... But THAT is all these people know.

 

It's not enough to "give up" on the fundies - Unless you want to just "forget" about an entire region of the United States and a socio-economic class as well. It's not an effort to "convert" them or change their belief system in any way. It's an effort to show them that their actions (and the actions promoted by their "leaders") are inconsistent with the values of Christianity, and probes them to ask WHY they are acting in a way that directly contradicts their beliefs.

 

The catch is that you're not changing their beliefs or their values.... You're just asking them to think about them and start standing up for them. To me, that shows the utmost respect for personal beliefs and values, while holding people accountable for sinful behavior, and without infringing on anyone's civil liberties, as well.... But you can't beat around the bush about it.

 

You've got to be direct, real, earnest, passionate.... It requires an unflinching belief that what you are saying is true..... And it requires the abiblity to say what you mean and mean what you say.... Something that the "all-encompassing" views of the progressive movement have failed to be able to do. I believe that if we accept people's beliefs, we have to accept also the basic moral code by which they, by profession of that faith, commit themselves to.

 

So if I accept that a person is a hard line fundie Christian, and that due to their religious persuasion they were strongly against homosexual marriage or, perhaps, abortion, I expect that they would NEVER support pre-emptive war, or cuts to medicare, or environmental rape, or suppression of free speech, or the death penalty..... And I'll hold them to it. That's what Christianity teaches. So THAT is what I expect, and THAT is what I will continue to fight for until this country doesn't have its Christianity on backwards anymore.

 

-Tea

[BeachOfEden]

Excellent SweetTea! First, the far right is not shy about voicing their rejection of the terms "Liberal" or "Progressive." In light of this....I understand what Jim Wallis is trying to say and do but in my humble opinion this love-affair with insisting on keeping the term "Evangelical" is not good. Progressives and even Moderate Christians, PLEASE stop obessing with wanting keep this term. It has become sullied. On Watched Jim Wallis on the Daily show and he voiced his progressive views well, but it was ever so obvious when ever he proudly discribed himself as an "Evangelical" John Stewart eyes began to twitched uncomfortably. NOT at the mention of the word "Jesus" or "Christian" or even when he quoted Scriptures..but when ever he said the word "Evangelical." We all know what is ONCE used to mean but it has morphed into a completely different meaning. Also SweetTea is right, we must be more vocal in questing the Fundamental Protestant's contridictive explaination on defining Christianity and "Moral values" as trying to prevent gays from getting married and blessing this war while completely ignoring the very basics of Christ's Golden Rule of treating ALL races, BOTH sexes and all orientations equally..the way we OURSELVES would like to be treated and taking care of our earth and animal kind. We Progressive Christians need to voice that WE DO have "MORAL VALUES" and they are not based on blessing wars or stopping weddings they are based treating every person, the earth and all live upon it the way WE OURSELVES would LIKE to be treated.

 

I am so baffled that SO many Evangelical Lights..NON-far right Moderates WANT SO badly to be accepted by the Fundamental Protestnats as "Orthodox" when they don't even agree on 'their' way of presenting 'their' idea of "Orhtodox" Christianity in the world anyways. I mean, they say, "Oh gosh! there's goes the Southern Baptists demeaning women again in their statemtns to the press! There they go again telling gays they are going to hell. There they go again telling us Progressives that we are New Age false unsaved "CULTS" again!...But gee, I really hope they will embrace us and our church as "Orthodox" and not lables US a "CULT."

 

Why do such Evangelical Lights voiced their outrage at the far rights bigotries and religious intolerance one moment..and then beg for them to accept them into their elite version of "Orthodox" Christianity?

[des]

Tea, you bring up some interesting points. I think one big problem with progressives is that we don't all have some unified position on anything. As I said about UCC, if you have 12 UCCers in a room you get 13 opinions. I think since UCC is a progressive church (or liberal church-- depends), this is a pretty good statement of the state of progressives in general.

I really like this website's 8 points. But it is a rarity to see the beliefs of progressives put into one clear statement like that. And in reality the 8 points are pretty flexible!

 

Do all progressives believe the same thing about Jesus? I think you would find some things in common: social Gospel; more interest in Jesus's life, what he did, versus the cross;

more interest in this life than the next (but no definition of what the next is); belief in diversity of beliefs and creation; the okness of being a seeker; etc. Some of these are in the 8 points no doubt.

 

When there is no distinction between what is right and what is wrong because we want to accept everyone's beliefs, there is a serious problem.  I don't propose that we become more fundementalist in our approach..... Just that we define exactly what it is we stand for, because right now it's guite fuzzy. 

 

That's true.I think you gave a nice litany of things that we as progressives might agree on-- preemptive war, rape of the environmnent, etc. And I htink we might agree that fundamentalist tend to define "values" as "stuff that goes on in the bedroom". I read an article that says that those congressman with the highest ratings by the Religious right organizations have the worst environmental records as judged by the League of Conservation voters.

 

I for one am very very tired of being called "immoral" and "unpatriotic" because of my progressive ideas.  It makes me want to stand up and say "NO!  That's WRONG!  I love God, and my country, and THAT is why I hold both the Constitution AND the Bible close to my heart, and that is why I can not let you tear down my beautiful faith or question my love for my country any more, ever again!".....  maybe that's what we finally need to do.

 

Well perhaps there might be a problem here. I love my country too, but my definition of loving my country is not "my country right or wrong". I think that is the "easy" thing to see. I don't actually believe in patriotism, as it is often followed-- as it implies that we kind of drape ourselves in the flag. Look where that got Nazi Germany (BTW, I am not saying you said that either!!!). But you see that type of patriotism going alogn with GW Bush. I'm not saying he is another Hitler, but that people are following him quite unquestioningly. GWB says to go into Iraq, yep he's the president, we should believe what the president says. You hear a lot of this lately. Give us this right or that one? yes the president says we need to. Torture prisoners? Well these are different times, we might need to do that.

 

I also believe that a lot of fundamentalists are acting out of fear. Fears of diversity, end times (after all you see this everywhere right now), fear of "The Other", etc. We don't have a magic salve for that.

 

I think it would be VERY difficult for progressives to come off with one voice, as we don't really ahve one voice, but I appreciate the thoughts. You gave us a lot to think about.

 

 

 

--des

[SweetTea]

The following is just an opinion.....

 

I think George Bush runs parallel to Hitler in too many ways for me to be comfortable. I'm sure that has NOTHING to do with the fact that I'm watching a documentary about Nazi Germany, but I can't help noticing as they describe the social downfall of the German people and their absolute belief that what they saw on the news and what their government told them was the truth. Sounds eerily simaler to the lack of coverage in our press over the last 4 years (since 9/11) for any dissent at all.

 

Anyway, regardless of that, perhaps I didn't word that last bit quite right. I define patriotism as a love for one's country, and a willingness to die for it if necessary. In my lifetime, American has never been a place I can be proud of. But I love it. My family came over on the Mayflower. Men from my family have fought in every war this country has ever participated in. Our nation has accomplished some of the most impressive and amazing achievements, and our society has done in 200 years what most societies spent millenia figuring out (democracy, abolition of slavery, women's sufferage, etc). I love my nation because I know its potential.

 

I also love democracy (too bad we don't really HAVE one in the United States, or at least not one that is free and fair and that actually works), and I believe that dissent is vital to democracy. So I feel it is my patriotic duty to stand up and disaggree with the establishment if necessary..... If I don't exercise that right, I may lose it. That's really what I mean by patriotism. The willingness to stand up for what's right, even in the face of adversity, to protect the integrity of my nation, and to ensure that the progress my forefathers (and even my parents) made is not undone.

 

-Tea

Edited January 20, 2005 by SweetTea

[BeachOfEden]

"Tea, you bring up some interesting points. I think one big problem with progressives is that we don't all have some unified position on anything."

 

I think we do. Progressives, Liberals AND moderates all agree on extending the Golden Rule/completel equality to BOTH sexes and all races. Right? That's a good start right there. All the moderate and Progressive churches allow women to be pastors, which contrast with say Southern Baptists/the far right. What unifies the fundamental churches is they all believe in a literal hellfire and "left beind" threats and all the Progressives and moderate mainstream churches have already voiced in their offical statement that they reject both of these beliefs, well, that IS another thing that unifies us. Isn't it?

 

"I really like this website's 8 points. But it is a rarity to see the beliefs of progressives put into one clear statement like that. And in reality the 8 points are pretty flexible!"

 

We could all take turns voicing what the 8 points mean to each of us..and would could also ask for modeartes opinions on what they think of the 8 points.

 

Do all progressives believe the same thing about Jesus?

 

Perhaps not..but all moderates and Progressives DO contrast from fundamentalists in that they do not believe that only Protestants are Christian and they do not look down on Catholics and others as "Unsaved".

 

QUOTE

 

"When there is no distinction between what is right and what is wrong because we want to accept everyone's beliefs, there is a serious problem."

 

Moderates and Progressives and Liberals already DO agree that the kind of sexism displayed such as in Southern Baptists IS WRONG. And ALL already agree that social treatemtn for ALL is right.

 

"I think you gave a nice litany of things that we as progressives might agree on-- preemptive war, rape of the environmnent, etc. And I htink we might agree that fundamentalist tend to define "values" as "stuff that goes on in the bedroom". I read an article that says that those congressman with the highest ratings by the Religious right organizations have the worst environmental records as judged by the League of Conservation voters."

 

Then let's voice this FACT.

 

 

"Well perhaps there might be a problem here. I love my country too, but my definition of loving my country is not "my country right or wrong". I think that is the "easy" thing to see. I don't actually believe in patriotism, as it is often followed-- as it implies that we kind of drape ourselves in the flag. Look where that got Nazi Germany (BTW, I am not saying you said that either!!!). But you see that type of patriotism going alogn with GW Bush. I'm not saying he is another Hitler, but that people are following him quite unquestioningly. GWB says to go into Iraq, yep he's the president, we should believe what the president says. You hear a lot of this lately. Give us this right or that one? yes the president says we need to. Torture prisoners? Well these are different times, we might need to do that."

 

I don;t either. I greatly appreicate the freedoms of this country but I do NOT think that America is more blessed than other countries by God and I feel with people voice this like this, God Bless America! Then this comes very close to a cult-like idolizing and creature worship of America.

 

"I also believe that a lot of fundamentalists are acting out of fear. Fears of diversity, end times (after all you see this everywhere right now), fear of "The Other", etc. We don't have a magic salve for that."

 

We stand apart from this because we don't embrace a "Left behind" fear tool and we we can be proud of this.

 

"I think it would be VERY difficult for progressives to come off with one voice, as we don't really ahve one voice, but I appreciate the thoughts. You gave us a lot to think about."

 

Let us converstae with Moderates and hear their voice and maybe together we can find common grounds, unify and grow a voice.