Kath Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 On the previous Spong forum, this subject has created a divide amongst members (all of them good). I personally believe (sorry Harry :-) that this subject has everything to do with religious history and ultimately encompassing the history of the world. Nothing changes. Only time. Things repeat themselves. It's all about power vs conscience. Evil vs. good. Darth Vadar vs. Luke Skywalker. Nothing changes. Only the stage and the players. We have now come into an era where, because of the internet, like minded individuals can communicate and form bonds against what wrongs need to be righted, and the spirit of that endeavour will make the difference. I'm a major movie buff and what fits in here is my own little quirky, weird segment of the movie, "The proposal" with Sandra Bullock (my fav actress) where Betty White (grammy) is dancing to a ritualistic Indian beat, using "vowels". and then Sandra (Margaret) tries to get into it with her and goes on to her (gross) rendition of a (I think) James Brown song about .....to the windows....to the doors.... check it out if you want. But Betty White (quite the maven these days) is doing a chant and Indian dance. Sorry, I drift off as usual. 911 has, among many other things, brought evangelical, fundamental Christians together in a pact closer than the John Edwards society for Christian misunderstanding of fundamentalism Christianity. I intend to continue this thread about the 911 conspiracy, and I'd like for an administrator or moderator of this forum to let me know whether or not it is accepable for discussion. Kath Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephM Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 Hi Kath, I noticed one of your peers has voted the post down already. This is your forum and it is allowed as long as dialog/discussion remains respectful of differing views. If members are not interested in a topic, i encourage them as a moderator to ignore and not respond to the topic. In this way things do not get out of hand. If there are no replies within a period of time the topic may be deleted. Hopefully, no one will be offended. JosephM(as Moderator) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kath Posted January 8, 2011 Author Share Posted January 8, 2011 Hi Kath, I noticed one of your peers has voted the post down already. This is your forum and it is allowed as long as dialog/discussion remains respectful of differing views. If members are not interested in a topic, i encourage them as a moderator to ignore and not respond to the topic. In this way things do not get out of hand. If there are no replies within a period of time the topic may be deleted. Hopefully, no one will be offended. JosephM(as Moderator) Hi JosephM! LOL, yes, I fully expected one of my 'peers' to give thumbs down. Thank you so very much for your perspective on this. I will honor your system. On the old forum, this topic was a divisive presence to the point of generating major hostility. I had pointed out what you so very succinctly did, that any topic could easily be ignored and others who were interested should feel free to engage. That didn't work for them. When I joined the Bishop Spong forum several years ago (almost 6,000 posts) I read each and every one of the posts written on various subjects by our wonderful members and I concluded that many subjects were, in fact related to the topic of religion. We have several members who are 'free' thinkers and have interests in what we think are related subjects. What I like about this new forum already is that there is a moderator (you specifically) who is hands on. We know where we stand and as you say, if subjects are discussed with respect for each person, what can be the harm? There are clear rules and no one or few people can take it upon themselves to dictate what is posted and discussed. If there are no 'takers' in the subjects I introduce, so be it. Thank you for your clarity. Kath Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 I have been given talking points from the time I was in 1st grade and expected to recite them back verbatum. I did this for many years and actually believed them for a good part of the time. Then after about 50 years or so I was asked by a friend "why do you believe that?" and I couldn't give a good answer. Why do we believe anything? Because someone tells us it's true? That is no longer a good reason for me. I'm a skeptic and I want credible evidence that something is true. If a building falls down for no apparant reason I want to know why. I'm not afraid of the truth I want to know the truth, like it or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stausch Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 On the previous Spong forum, this subject has created a divide amongst members (all of them good). I personally believe (sorry Harry :-) that this subject has everything to do with religious history and ultimately encompassing the history of the world. Nothing changes. Only time. Things repeat themselves. It's all about power vs conscience. Evil vs. good. Darth Vadar vs. Luke Skywalker. Nothing changes. Only the stage and the players. We have now come into an era where, because of the internet, like minded individuals can communicate and form bonds against what wrongs need to be righted, and the spirit of that endeavour will make the difference. I'm a major movie buff and what fits in here is my own little quirky, weird segment of the movie, "The proposal" with Sandra Bullock (my fav actress) where Betty White (grammy) is dancing to a ritualistic Indian beat, using "vowels". and then Sandra (Margaret) tries to get into it with her and goes on to her (gross) rendition of a (I think) James Brown song about .....to the windows....to the doors.... check it out if you want. But Betty White (quite the maven these days) is doing a chant and Indian dance. Sorry, I drift off as usual. 911 has, among many other things, brought evangelical, fundamental Christians together in a pact closer than the John Edwards society for Christian misunderstanding of fundamentalism Christianity. I intend to continue this thread about the 911 conspiracy, and I'd like for an administrator or moderator of this forum to let me know whether or not it is accepable for discussion. Kath Good Day Kath(y)! Allow me to jump in by quoting what you began your post with: It's all about power vs conscience. Evil vs. good. Darth Vadar vs. Luke Skywalker. Nothing changes. Only the stage and the players. Many of the Forum members will take issue with what I am about to write, and that is ok. After all, we are given this precious gift of life to evolve as we perceive our lives consciously and in good conscience. But our singular commonality is love. So, here we go.... In that near-death experience of mine back in November 1973, I didn't know that at that time I was in the mind of some enormous eternal power, what I hesitate even today, to call that mind the mind of God. While there in that mind, before thought, there was only love, that is to say, we are all oneness, in thought, we are all from this singular Source, the Source of Love. I believe that we are all created by this singular thought for, here we go, nothing exists unless this Love wills it (don't give up on me yet). The Source loves us so much that It has given us co-creative powers to create, hopefully through Love, the world that we want to expeirence. We do have this power....never surrender it. But, so many human beings over the ages have fallen away from this Love and have rejected our Oneness with Love. To me, at least to my way of feeling when I attempt to go deep within myself and watch what my heart-felt inner thoughts reveal to me is this.... if only love is eternal and nothing else does, then what is it that we love? I recall that as a very young boy asking others "Tell me what you love, what is important to you, and I will tell you the person that you are." Look at yourself my fellow Forum members, and ask yourselves, no matter how fearful it may feel, what have you done with your lives, have you done with you truly loved to do, and where are you with this love today? This is not about self judgment, but about opening yourself up, further for many of us have felt this inner Love, to experiencing for yourselves this burning Love from within. This is your consciously feeling the Love Conscience from within. Others, like Harry, Vridar and Judith, have the courage to see themselves for who they really are by seeking The Truth. For me I am still seeking for I have to know for this is my life's purpose. After all these words what I wanted to say in a nutshell is that I agree with you Kath(y) - history is replete with good versus evil. I believe this will change in my lifetime. Enjoy the journey, and be in that Spirit of Love, Very Respectfully, Stausch Edit... Stausch double post merged by JosephM as Moderator 640AM Jan 8 3011 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kath Posted January 8, 2011 Author Share Posted January 8, 2011 (deleted quoted copy of previous long post as redundant) JM Good morning, Stausch~ As usual, your posts are beautifully written and a joy to read. You wrote: "....Others, like Harry, Vridar and Judith, have the courage to see themselves for who they really are by seeking The Truth. For me I am still seeking for I have to know for this is my life's purpose...." Yes, I am seeking as well, yet I personally doubt that any form of the 'truth' will come to me during this lifetime. I was thinking just the other day what an enigma it all is, and why that is so. We are left to draw our own conclusions since no one can prove their own theories. But I tend to go along with you in that there is pervasive GOOD all around us. It's the EVIL that has me worried. We (Americans, at least) seem to have this illusion that our govt....the good ol' US of A are the good guys and everything we do, we do because of altruism and protection of the innocent. I used to think that to be true until just within a few years my eyes have been opened. And it began on a forum which discusses religion...the Spong forum. Now I realize what the reality is. Some will say (as have you and a few others) that what you seek you will find...whether good or evil. I don't dwell upon the evils of the world at all, but it seems an avalanche has been blasted into motion now that I've had a rude awakening. 911 is part of that. Americans don't want to know the truth, so they close their ears and minds to it all. I do have a hope for a transition into a new era brought on because the truths have been revealed to those who have ears to hear and want to hear. Only in this way will change be possible. Heros like Assange, Manning, Ellsberg, Deep Throat, are affecting this change. Communication has reached unprecedented heights, enabling even illiterates to learn what is going on. I hope there will be another hero added to a long list who will prove that 911 was, in fact orchestrated to invade Iraq. It is, in my opinion, people who are full of love for their fellow humankind who dare to bring these issues forward, so that good will in the end prevail, and the evil will hopefully one day burn itself out. Respectfully, Kath Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 Good morning Stauch Many of the Forum members will take issue with what I am about to write, and that is ok. After all, we are given this precious gift of life to evolve as we perceive our lives consciously and in good conscience. But our singular commonality is love. Love is certainly a commonality that we can all relate to but I think there is more than just love. I think the life force which I see as the prime force is made up of three universal inseparable facets; they are love, consciousness and truth. In that near-death experience of mine back in November 1973, I didn't know that at that time I was in the mind of some enormous eternal power, what I hesitate even today, to call that mind the mind of God. While there in that mind, before thought, there was only love, that is to say, we are all oneness, in thought, we are all from this singular Source, the Source of Love. I wish I could have experienced what you experienced. You were apparently conscious of the source of love, consciousness and truth, the universal Life Force. What a wonderful sense of peacefulness that must give you as you recall the experience. When you awoke and found you were still in the material world were you disappointed? Stauch, I hope you will share with us how it was you felt during your near death experience. I wonder if the experience could also be described as a near life experience as it seems you were at the border. I believe that we are all created by this singular thought for, here we go, nothing exists unless this Love wills it (don't give up on me yet). The Source loves us so much that It has given us co-creative powers to create, hopefully through Love, the world that we want to expeirence. We do have this power....never surrender it. But, so many human beings over the ages have fallen away from this Love and have rejected our Oneness with Love. To me, at least to my way of feeling when I attempt to go deep within myself and watch what my heart-felt inner thoughts reveal to me is this.... I think I understand what you are telling us; because of our selfishness we place our own satisfaction above the needs of others and lose the capacity to empathize with others. We then go on to create our own world where others needs are subordinated to our own, where our lives are more important than others. Of course we all want to be alive but are we willing to share our lives with others so they might "be all that they can be"? I don't mean to sound like a preacher giving a sermon but whether we believe that Jesus was crucified for our sins or not the moral of the story remains; the greatest measure of our love is to give our own life that others may live. This we can all do not necessarily by dying but by living our lives in a manner that raises all of humanity one quantum step at a time to a higher level of evolution. This is not an easy task when we carry the mortal baggage of selfishness and are motivated by greed. How do we learn to make love the fuel that drives us? if only love is eternal and nothing else does, then what is it that we love? I recall that as a very young boy asking others "Tell me what you love, what is important to you, and I will tell you the person that you are." Look at yourself my fellow Forum members, and ask yourselves, no matter how fearful it may feel, what have you done with your lives, have you done with you truly loved to do, and where are you with this love today? This is not about self judgment, but about opening yourself up, further for many of us have felt this inner Love, to experiencing for yourselves this burning Love from within. This is your consciously feeling the Love Conscience from within. When I taught CCD many years ago I gave the kids a chalk talk on love. I called it the Love pyramid. It looked something like Maslow's Pyramid of Human needs though I don't think that's where I got it. I liked to think it was an original conception but we know that nothing is original. Coincidentally there were five levels of my love pyramid and when I overlaid it on Maslow's it was a near perfect fit: 1. Love of self (survival) 2. Love of family (security) 3. Love of others (belonging) 4. Love of all creation (esteem) 5. Love of God (spiritual actualization) Love is the facet of life force that causes every next step. It is the attractor of the life force and syntropic in nature which in my way of thinking is the basis of evolution from micro to macro to mortal and beyond. The beauty of love is that it is a two way attraction, we can be loved and we can give love. We don't create love or originate love but we can choose to love, we are a conduit for love or as you put it a channel. We must learn to open our minds to channel love to become mature spiritual souls. I think along with love, both truth and consciousness are eternal as well because what would love be without consciousness and truth to direct it? I have considered calling the prime force the Love force with three facets of life, truth and consciousness. Do you think that would be more accurate? Thank you very much for you most insightful post you have given me food for thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stausch Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 Good Morning Kathy and Harry! Kathy, you wrote in part "I do have a hope for a transition into a new era brought on because the truths have been revealed to those who have ears to hear and want to hear. Only in this way will change be possible." I want to tie in Harry's 'three facets of life': Love force, Truth and Consciousness with what you wrote and simply state that many people not only in the United States but throughout other countries, are awakening to the lies, deceptions, spins all in the attempt to hide the truth. For those who are open to the truth, we are becoming aware of truth when we rely in part on our inner companion better known as our conscience. Was it you Harry who wrote about a US citizen that would never return to the "good ol' US of A" because life is much better elsewhere? I never responded to that post, but having lived in Germany for over 35 years now, I can saw with insurmountable evidence that I can see in the forest (USA) and can distinguish each and every tree, bush and scrub for what it truly is and I am perfectly at home here in Germany. Change is coming Kathy, have faith. Have faith! Was it not Mark Twain who among many, many other quotable quotes said something to the effect..."The definition of faith is believing in something that you know just isn't so." And with that I will write about my near-death experience (NDE), comment on your "three univeral inseparable facets" Harry, and well as attempt to verbalize my feelings about love and the fact that I am in love with Love. Before I get into that NDE-'73, I have to tell you that I spent two years in Vietnam (1967-68, and 1971-72), been involved in countless investigations concerning the racial riots of 1968-69, witnessed our judicial system with respect to how multimillionnairs and politicians are treated differently then the so-called "others", and been involved in countless investigations with US Army militarty intelligence. In short, life as I knew it was a total mess and I was looking for solutions for inner peace. From the late 60s to the early 70s, I read everything I could get my hands on that would help me to find that peace. It was during this period that I become a avid researcher into the major religions of the world and I felt at home with this personal quest for inner peace through religious research. Many of the concerns of todays Forum members, namely was Jesus real or a myth, what is the true religion for humanity, what is the truth concerning this God, and many more I have taken deep within myself in the search for peace. I'm going to get ahead of myself and comment on your three universal inseparable facets, Harry, that are love, consciousness and truth). Many years after my NDE, I underwent past life regression for the purpose of further clarification of that NDE. What I learned was that in prior lives, I was a priest, monk, tibetan holy person, a Chinese medician man who quit that profession to follow "The Way", an Egyptian high priest and in most of these life times I had left my wives and children and selfishly following my instinct in search of the truth. It was this deep love for truth that I was consciously seeking that truth about the ultimate question: Who am I? I'm going to share with you now that NDE. Harry, you are very perceptive when you wrote "I wonder if the experience could also be described as a near life experience as it seems you were at the border." I was Harry, I was. I was experiencing a past life experience that took me over to the near death experience. All of life is in the moment, past, present and future. Our thoughts, our feelings, our vibrations are the keys to co-create the life we want to live. NDE: I entered a catherdral or a large building that I assumed was a church. Being that I was born into a family where my parents were practicing Catholics, I assumed that the church-catherdral that I entered was of the Catholic Faith. The year is unknown to me, but by the looks of the building from within that was dimly lit with candle light and what the others were wearing, I would say we were in the 14th - 15th Century. The majority of occupants in that church were dressed in the brown-robbed garb that a monk would wear with a robe around the waist and the hud covering the head and face. I guessed there were perhaps fifty monks and perhaps fifteen females present, also dressed in the typical garb of a nun from the 14-15th Century. As I entered the church from the rear entrance, I immediately felt discomfort, a feeling of sorrow as if one was asking for forgiveness for having done wrong. I walked up the right side aisle and took a place, standing to my left. While standing in this pew, I wanted to sit down, but I noticed all the other occupants were standing, with hoods over their heads that covered their faces and they faced the front of the church. Having gone to confession on numerous occasions as a young boy, normally on Friday evenings, I assumed that the occupants were going to confession. This was the feeling I felt and was I observed in the church. Again, the was a deep feeling of sorrow, and a seeking of forgiveness that was heavy in the air. Silence, dimly lit church, cold with any feeling of love (I'm an intuitive person and can sense, clearly, what the mood of a person is). All at once, the occupants during to their right and became to exit the pews and stook in line, facing the rear of the church. I likewise did the same. I did not notice what I was wearing, but only assumed that I too was wearing the brown garb of a monk. We all started to step ever so slowly to the rear of the church. I noticed that there was a spiral staircase that we were assending. The steps to the spiral staircase went upwards clockwise. As I too ascended the staircase, I began to question myself what I was going to say once I entered the confessional. I knew that we we all going to confess our sins. I thought of a few minor transgressions in my past and decided on them to ask for forgiveness. It was my turn to enter the confessional. I entered, knelt down and blessed myself by saying...'bless me father for I have signed.' after having said that the screen window opened and an extended arm and hand came out of the window and I assumed that the person wanted me to place my hand in his. The hand and arm was a mans in that the arm was with black hair and the color of the skin was a light olive-color. After I placed my hand in his, it was then that I experienced the most profound awakening that remains with me to this day. Immediately I felt there was nothing to forgive, for no wrong was committed, their was only compassion and deep love for that was what I was and where I came from - this Love. I tried to comprehend where I was and I to this day believe that I was in someones thought, that we were all in this thought and that thought was conscious Love. I was becoming engulfed in Love, and that Love was in the mind of God (I was created, we were all created by God....we are all One --- Oneness) I somehow knew that when we connected with God's thought, that we, together, create from our thoughts....co-create. I was so consumed by this enormous relevation, what I was seeking for so long in the world that I was in, the messy world, that I found myself back into the world from which I came. My immediate reaction to this near death (life) experience was the painful awareness that I was where I did not want to be (in this world), at the age of 25, I am not ashamed to say that I began to cried when I realized that I no longer was with God and was in fact, back in this world. I cried that entire day and into the evening. I repeated dozens of times throughout that day and up to this moment ...I want to go Home...my true Home. This NDE '73 has been a miraculous gift for which I am deeply humbled and I deeply feel a never ending gratitude to have been given this chance to witness Love and to know the truth to that ultimate question - Who am I? We are Love, we are God's creation, we are to express this Love by doing that which we, with utmost honesty with ourselves and others, love to do in service that expresses this Love. This brings to to what was communicated to me in this NDE, and that is, do not lie to yourself nor to anyone. Simple message. You see, I have lived that lie in my previous lives as a priest, monk, and other positions in my attempts to tell others about what was in The Bible and sell it as the truth, when in fact...it was written, rewritten so often that even I knew it to be a fraud. Which brings me to this final thought before I close... I've often written about going within and not without to find your answers to some of your deepest concerns. No one can excape from the lies based on their faith (not facts) that are shared with others. No one, No Pope, no priest, no normal human being like myself. It is my belief that we are changing and will be in a change. A change from fear, lies, corruption, war and all the other "evils" to one of living in Love that is based on the Source of Love that I felt in that NDE. So, let me get off this podium and simply say please all of you Forum members, plesse go within and search for that Source of Love that is in you, where you came from and who we really are all.... Very Respectfully, Stausch P.S. I don't read what I write, so overlook my mistakes...I'm only human Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kath Posted January 9, 2011 Author Share Posted January 9, 2011 (deleted long quote of previous post as reduntant) JM Dearest Stausch, A magnificent post, as usual. I'd hate for it to be lost on a 911 thread, but that's your choice. I wonder if others have had a NDE or related personal stories to tell. Would you consider beginning a thread about it? I was just speaking with a friend at a New Years brunch who told me that he actually flatlined 3 times on the operating table and his experience. Kathy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kath Posted March 7, 2011 Author Share Posted March 7, 2011 Sheeee's baaaaa-aaaak! I am coming to realize yet daily what has been and is happening to our world; the agenda which is in effect which will change our world as we now it. Here we are, discussing religion, in many cases as if it were the only thing that matters in the world. Quite honestly, in a flick of a nano-moment, each and every one of us on this forum could be non-existant. Not because of cancer or other diseases, although I'm not relegating that to a fact of lesser importance by any means (it's part of the picture) but because our lives are now being controlled more than you can imagine. Maybe this is a time to focus more on spirituality than ever before, actually. Our food is all franken food now, with the bio-engineering, roundup-ready organisms and is radiated to the point where we will derive no nutritional benefit (which keeps us alive). Our water, soil and air are so heavily toxified our immune systems can't keep up. I could go on and on (as anyone from the old forum can tell you) but in many cases it falls on deaf ears. Time will prove that 911 was orchestrated by our government in order to accomplish it's own goals. Lives were and continue to be sacrificed for selfish purposes. Julian Assange and especially Bradley Manning (the new Daniel Ellsberg scapegoat) are heros, but not to the people who aren't really up on the realities. (If you aren't up on it, you're usually down on it). I believe we need a whole new strength in spiritual belief. It's the only hope we have in overcoming the damage befalling our natural way of existence. The New World Order is rearing it's ugly head in the biggest way ever. Nanotechnology is changing our eco-system and we will never be able to undo the damage once it's done...and it is being done. If you have a strong spirituality and belief in a God or a Force or anything you perceive as being Good, please focus on it and believe stronger. As Peter Pan said, "Tink needs our help! Please clap!!!" Kath Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judith Posted May 5, 2011 Share Posted May 5, 2011 It seems that many societies have a fixation on death. I cannot understand that the people that lost loved ones in the 911 tragedies have waited until now to come to closure. What have they been doing since that terrible day? I for one have lost a husband and son, not to mention that only two of us of my generation on both my parent’s side are left. It does not disturb me because I think of it as something that is a part of life. We are born to die. If that is disturbing to most people, then they have not come to grips with life itself. There is nothing in the world that lasts forever. Nature is a good way to understand that. Each day that I go out in my garden to work, I look at the flowerbed where I scattered my husband’s ashes. Of course, he is not there, but his remains are nurturing the earth, but his memory lingers in a most positive way. Same goes for my son, whose ashes were scattered as we sailed on a beautiful day on a big lake. As adults we sometimes teach the wrong message to our children about death. I remember as a child that it was a “hush hush” thing, and the little ones were not even allowed to see the dead body. I don’t understand that. It sent a wrong message. Whether or not the 911 conspiracy is still on the minds of many, or whether it is not, I intend to get on with my life. I will not live in fear. Life is too short for that. I do have compassion for those remaining in a family where there is a void. Have we not learned anything of the thousands of years of death? My hope of the resurrection is not being raised from the dead, but my being raised from the mindset of the adversities of this world. It is a beautiful world filled with wonderful things that amaze me every time I see a documentary or read the Smithsonian or National Geographic. I know I will never see or touch in person all the wonders of nature, but at least in this marvelous day of technology I can see it and continue to be amazed. I have said this many times about death. We didn’t know before we were born, and I suspect we won’t know after we die. Judith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephM Posted May 5, 2011 Share Posted May 5, 2011 To All, This thread has been around since the 6th of January.2011 and i have pretty well left it up to Spong subscribers by their response or lack of one to determine whether this thread is appropriate for this section. It seems clear to me from the negative ratings of subscribers peers and comments that it may not be.. It is certainly not appropriate in the other sections unless two people want to discuss it casually in the cafe section over coffee. Perhaps a more political forum might be more appropriate for the subject matter of the OP. Therefore i am closing this thread as not appropriate for this section either. JosephM (as Moderator) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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