GeorgeW Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 Tariki, As they say, "my bad." I should have read your post more carefully, the answer is now obvious. But, I don't regret the mistake as your response added some worthwhile thoughts. I agree that the Pharisees were the victims of later polemics (I will refrain from using 'blood libel'). Surely, there were some very compassionate and caring Pharisees. But, they do serve as a nice example (even if not historically correct) for those of us who might get overly hung up on details and carrying out rituals at the expense of the big picture. As an aside, I am curious about your nom de forum, tariki. This could represent a couple of Semitic words after anglicization (history or way/path). George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tariki Posted January 16, 2011 Author Share Posted January 16, 2011 As an aside, I am curious about your nom de forum, tariki. This could represent a couple of Semitic words after anglicization (history or way/path). George George, nothing semitic, it actually means "other power" in Japanese. Its a Pure Land Buddhist term, not emphasising "other" in a dualistic sense, but in the Pure Land sense, as versed by a Pure Land "saint" Saichi.... O Saichi, will you tell us of Other Power? Yes, but there is neither other power nor self power. What is, is the graceful acceptance only. Here is a link if you are interested... Tariki I once used the name "dookie" which was what my daughter called me for some reason unknown to myself, but then someone informed me that the word was an American term for "poo"........ So maybe I went for something slightly more pretentious... Anyway, must go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephM Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 (snip) Blessed are they who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied. (snip) Happy or at peace are those who as they do for hunger and thirst continually and repeatedly look for food and drink do the same looking for right standing/conformance with their very source/God. They shall obtain this peace and happiness that is in that righteousness/conformance. (my own words) I think Jesus was assuring the people that when that looking/awareness becomes as a hunger and thirst that they indeed would receive happiness and peace. Just my 2 cents, Joseph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grampawombat Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 Many "progressive" authors have written about Jesus describing "the kingdom." To me, those who "hunger and thirst" are searching for that kingdom, and this passage indicates that it will come. The kingdom is the time in the future when all is wholeness and a fair portion for everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick the Nevermet Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 This is rather lame, but it reminds me of a scene in Pulp Fiction. At the end, Jules is pointing a gun at one of the diner robbers, and goes into his an analysis of the Ezekiel quote he likes saying. At the end, he says: See, now I'm thinking, maybe it means you're the evil man, and I'm the righteous man, and Mr. 9 millimeter here, he's the shepherd protecting my righteous ass in the valley of darkness. Or, it could mean you're the righteous man and I'm the shepherd and it's the world that's evil and selfish. I'd like that. But that... ain't the truth. The truth is, you're the weak, and I'm the tyranny of evil men. But I'm tryin', Ringo. I'm trying real hard to be the shepherd. Jules is not righteous, meek, pure of heart or anything else. However, Jules at the end of the movie is nevertheless blessed, because he is now genuinely seeking righteousness, trying to understand how to be a good person living in harmony with God's will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tariki Posted January 19, 2011 Author Share Posted January 19, 2011 This is rather lame, but it reminds me of a scene in Pulp Fiction. At the end, Jules is pointing a gun at one of the diner robbers, and goes into his an analysis of the Ezekiel quote he likes saying. At the end, he says: Jules is not righteous, meek, pure of heart or anything else. However, Jules at the end of the movie is nevertheless blessed, because he is now genuinely seeking righteousness, trying to understand how to be a good person living in harmony with God's will. Nick, A bit of a coincidence when you posted this. I had only recently given up on "Pulp Fiction" about half way through, unable to comprehend in the slightest just what it was about. Maybe its just me, much prefer things like the "Wizard of Oz"..... Anyway, I think what you say shows the same idea as the "wheat and the tares", leaving them all to grow together. Who knows exactly what is what, or how one thing reacts upon another? Then, throw in the "many that are last shall be first" etc etc and its all a bit indecipherable at times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick the Nevermet Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 Nick, A bit of a coincidence when you posted this. I had only recently given up on "Pulp Fiction" about half way through, unable to comprehend in the slightest just what it was about. Maybe its just me, much prefer things like the "Wizard of Oz"..... Anyway, I think what you say shows the same idea as the "wheat and the tares", leaving them all to grow together. Who knows exactly what is what, or how one thing reacts upon another? Then, throw in the "many that are last shall be first" etc etc and its all a bit indecipherable at times. We'll save an in depth discussion of Pulp Fiction for another thread, if not another forum (Though I will say that it's not about anything other than a proudly superficial aesthetic) Elsewhere, Jesus states that all commandments boil down to loving God and loving others because you love God. Based on that, it is quite understandable why those who seek righteousness are blessed. That one need not necessarily already be righteous also becomes understandable because Jesus seems to have a deep suspicion of how society would define "Good" or "Righteousness", along with social order in general. So, yes, I definitely think the last shall be first theme is relevant here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tariki Posted January 20, 2011 Author Share Posted January 20, 2011 We'll save an in depth discussion of Pulp Fiction for another thread, if not another forum (Though I will say that it's not about anything other than a proudly superficial aesthetic) Nick, A "proudly superficial aesthetic" ? Hopefully it will be on another forum, then I will not feel so inadequate..... (Sorry, just forgive my sense of humour.....) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick the Nevermet Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 Nick, A "proudly superficial aesthetic" ? Hopefully it will be on another forum, then I will not feel so inadequate..... (Sorry, just forgive my sense of humour.....) If we need to start apologizing for senses of humor, I'd be here all day. And sorry for tortured phrasing, but it was the quickest way I could think of explaining that movie. But anyhow, yes, I think we're agreeing about the in-topic part regarding seeking righteousness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judith Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 We'll save an in depth discussion of Pulp Fiction for another thread, if not another forum (Though I will say that it's not about anything other than a proudly superficial aesthetic) Elsewhere, Jesus states that all commandments boil down to loving God and loving others because you love God. Based on that, it is quite understandable why those who seek righteousness are blessed. That one need not necessarily already be righteous also becomes understandable because Jesus seems to have a deep suspicion of how society would define "Good" or "Righteousness", along with social order in general. So, yes, I definitely think the last shall be first theme is relevant here. I have a few questions for you. 1) Your first sentence: Are you saying that an atheist cannot love others? 2) Not everyone that seeks righteousness is blessed. 3) Last sentence: What is meant by the last shall be first? First for what? I personally, do not believe there was a Jesus. None of the gospel writers knew Jesus. He was dead for sometime before the gospels were written. So what is claimed to be his words is hearsay. I'm not insinuating that the words Jesus supposedly spoke are not good wisdom. Many writings prior to Jesus' time had the same wisdom (Egyptian, Babylonia, etc.) But to elaborate on "that only the righteous are blessed" is not true. I guess it depends on your definition of what being blessed is. If you could define "blessed" for me, that would let me know where you are coming from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tariki Posted January 23, 2011 Author Share Posted January 23, 2011 I have a few questions for you. 1) Your first sentence: Are you saying that an atheist cannot love others? 2) Not everyone that seeks righteousness is blessed. 3) Last sentence: What is meant by the last shall be first? First for what? I personally, do not believe there was a Jesus. None of the gospel writers knew Jesus. He was dead for sometime before the gospels were written. So what is claimed to be his words is hearsay. I'm not insinuating that the words Jesus supposedly spoke are not good wisdom. Many writings prior to Jesus' time had the same wisdom (Egyptian, Babylonia, etc.) But to elaborate on "that only the righteous are blessed" is not true. I guess it depends on your definition of what being blessed is. If you could define "blessed" for me, that would let me know where you are coming from. Judith, You have addressed Nick, but as I've colluded with him ( ), maybe I can be allowed to give my own answer. For me, to love "man" (or woman) IS to love God/the Divine. And in as much as.......the beginning of love is to let those we love be perfectly themselves, and not to twist them to fit our own image. Otherwise we love only the reflection of ourselves we find in them...... (Merton), then I often feel that an athiest has a head start on many "religious" folk. For me, the key is more sitting light to ourselves and our views, not taking ourselves too seriously. Certainly I agree that not everyone who seeks righteousness ends up blessed. When the righteousness sought is a moral rectitude we feel we can accomplish, and having accomplished it (at least in our own eyes) bask in its limelight, the end result is more often than not a judgement of others who we feel do not measure up to our own exhalted standards. This is not blessedness. "Mutual forgiveness of each vice opens the gates of paradise" (Blake) is more to my own way of "seeking" and seeing. The famous old NT phrase, "seek and you shall find" or "if you ask for bread will He give you a stone?" are no guarantee of anything............ And the last shall be first etc etc has so many connotations for me that I hardly know where to start. Leaving aside social revolutions, with the rich getting their cummuppance...... ........the NT speaks of those who "commend themselves", and we hear many who do this, though quite why is lost to me on occasion. Maybe they trust in their own "belief", and they feel that this in itself distinguishes them from others who fail to share it? Anyway, as the Good Book says, "If I have no love I am nothing", which brings us full circle. All the best Derek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephM Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 For me, to love "man" (or woman) IS to love God/the Divine. And in as much as.......the beginning of love is to let those we love be perfectly themselves, and not to twist them to fit our own image. Otherwise we love only the reflection of ourselves we find in them...... (Merton) Tariki, Thanks for the quote.... Wonderfully expressed in my view. It seems to me that only the divine in us can bring forth this realization. Joseph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick the Nevermet Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 I have a few questions for you. 1) Your first sentence: Are you saying that an atheist cannot love others? 2) Not everyone that seeks righteousness is blessed. 3) Last sentence: What is meant by the last shall be first? First for what? I personally, do not believe there was a Jesus. None of the gospel writers knew Jesus. He was dead for sometime before the gospels were written. So what is claimed to be his words is hearsay. I'm not insinuating that the words Jesus supposedly spoke are not good wisdom. Many writings prior to Jesus' time had the same wisdom (Egyptian, Babylonia, etc.) But to elaborate on "that only the righteous are blessed" is not true. I guess it depends on your definition of what being blessed is. If you could define "blessed" for me, that would let me know where you are coming from. Hi Judith. 1) Atheists can love. From my standpoint, humanity is generally capable of love, and atheists are human. All I meant was that Jesus from other places in the Gospel said that loving others was the fundamental basis of the Commandments. IMHO, Christians do not have a monopoly on any virtue, especially love. 2) & 3) In the Gospels, Jesus is quoted as saying, "Blessed are they who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied," and Tariki has got us talking about what it (and the other beatitudes) may mean. My main point in my posts about this passage is similar to the old saying that the ends do not justify the means. How you do things matter, what you strive for matters. So, seeking righteousness is a good thing. You explicitly bring up an important problem: depending on one's definition of "blessed", how do we square this claim with reality? This is where the last shall be first language comes in. In line with Borg, Spong, and many others, I see this as amounting to a call for social justice. We are to love one another, and help usher in a good society where the marginalized of all forms are welcomed as equals. If one subscribes to leftist politics, one could call this "utopian thinking" without that being meant as a criticism. This utopian state is not a predicted future state of society, but rather a mobilizing dream and ideal that is at hand right now that should help guide our actions. Now we get to the definition: the groups that are listed as blessed in the beatitudes are those that will be elevated to the degree that we realize this ideal, which Jesus describes as "The Kingdom of God." The Kingdom of God is an ethical ideal and spiritual state, and like any good ideal, it is never fully realized but nevertheless hangs in the air. I think this definition of what it means to be blessed works well for these passages, though it may be too narrow in general. I'm unsure how your comment about Jesus not existing comes to play in this. One could take Borg's post-critical naivete to the extreme and say that even if Jesus didn't actually exist, there is a message presented in the stories about him which is important and significant. Since you're posting on this forum, I think you'd probably agree that Christianity and the teachings of Jesus are important and significant, even if one disagrees or thinks they're fictional. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick the Nevermet Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 And the last shall be first etc etc has so many connotations for me that I hardly know where to start. Leaving aside social revolutions, with the rich getting their cummuppance...... ........the NT speaks of those who "commend themselves", and we hear many who do this, though quite why is lost to me on occasion. Maybe they trust in their own "belief", and they feel that this in itself distinguishes them from others who fail to share it? Anyway, as the Good Book says, "If I have no love I am nothing", which brings us full circle. To be clear, I don't think my last post was necessarily talking about revolution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tariki Posted January 23, 2011 Author Share Posted January 23, 2011 To be clear, I don't think my last post was necessarily talking about revolution. One of these days my sense of humour will get me into deep trouble.......come to think of it, it already has.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick the Nevermet Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 And the last shall be first etc etc has so many connotations for me that I hardly know where to start. Leaving aside social revolutions, with the rich getting their cummuppance...... ........the NT speaks of those who "commend themselves", and we hear many who do this, though quite why is lost to me on occasion. Maybe they trust in their own "belief", and they feel that this in itself distinguishes them from others who fail to share it? Anyway, as the Good Book says, "If I have no love I am nothing", which brings us full circle. To be clear, I don't think my last post was necessarily talking about revolution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tariki Posted January 23, 2011 Author Share Posted January 23, 2011 To be clear, I don't think my last post was necessarily talking about revolution. Deja vu!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soma Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 Here is my take on Anger and the Beatitudes “For every minute you are angry you lose sixty seconds of happiness.” Ralph Emerson “Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned.” Buddha I feel anger is a natural reaction and anyone can be angry, but I feel it is the wise man that controls his angry. Anger is a force that can be used to teach, but in that case the teacher is not attached to the anger and the anger is channeled in a positive direction for the right purpose, in the proper way and directed for good. In my writing I was thinking about my fellow Christians who are angry without anything or anybody to really be angry at. I feel anger displaces awareness because if I turn inside when offended by others, mistakes, faults or what I perceive to be injustice then I forget about my anger. I feel we are seeking the Truth and it is what will set us free, it seems the Truth also makes some angry. In his time Jesus made some radical demands. I feel Jesus preached in a dramatic manner that can be perceived to be harsh and angry to the religiously and socially arrogant, but I don’t think he was angry. Jesus preaching was perceived as comfort those who understood him, the meek and brokenhearted. I feel people at that time were angry with Jesus because his radical devotion meant his followers would have to be meek, turn the other cheek, and not judge other peoples’ hearts. Spiritual measurement and retaliation was left up to God. Mathew collected the saying of Jesus in the Beatitudes: Matthew 5 The Beatitudes 1Now when he saw the crowds, he went up on a mountainside and sat down. His disciples came to him, 2and he began to teach them saying: 3"Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 4Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted. 5Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth. 6Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled. 7Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy. 8Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God. 9Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God. 10Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 11"Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you. I don’t see where Jesus said blessed are the angry, for they make their own poison and suffer their own consequences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatherman Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 The Beatitudes: Journey of Virtue and Blessing April 19, 2010 by davidwburns A definition given to the word “beatitude” is “supreme blessedness or happiness”. Jesus’ Beatitudes, therefore, provide for us eight keys to beatitude…a state of supreme blessedness. I believe that they are ordered and build one upon the other. The journey can be interpreted as: Empty yourself and become humble In humility, mourn for your sins and for the suffering of others In your mourning, seek to advocate for those who suffer and not for yourself In advocating for others, seek justice; what is right. Do not be satisfied with what is unrighteous in yourself or in the world. In seeking righteousness, temper justice with mercy In mercy, make your heart pure and free from judgment and selfish intent In purifying your heart, have peace and share it with the world In doing all this, you have become righteousness, now be righteous even unto persecution. Blessed living = the Kingdom of Heaven Beatitude is the relationship between virtue and blessing. In your virtue, God will bless you and lead you to more virtue. Jesus’ “Way” teaches us that we are to become perfected in this way, but not on our own. It requires a relationship with God through him and the Holy Spirit (the Helper), and a relationship with the world. Virtue and blessing flow from God, and do not exist outside of relationship. The Beatitudes, like the Commandments, are the principles for ordering a new way of living for a new society. The commandments ordered the Chosen People. The Beatitudes order the Kingdom of God. Moses was the messenger of the law, but Jesus proclaims that he the fulfillment of the law…and the prophets. In him, we find God’s perfect law so that the law may be written on our hearts. The Beatitudes provide us with a processes for that law to be written on our hearts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soma Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 The Beatitudes: Journey of Virtue and Blessing April 19, 2010 by davidwburns A definition given to the word “beatitude” is “supreme blessedness or happiness”. Jesus’ Beatitudes, therefore, provide for us eight keys to beatitude…a state of supreme blessedness. I believe that they are ordered and build one upon the other. The journey can be interpreted as: Empty yourself and become humble In humility, mourn for your sins and for the suffering of others In your mourning, seek to advocate for those who suffer and not for yourself In advocating for others, seek justice; what is right. Do not be satisfied with what is unrighteous in yourself or in the world. In seeking righteousness, temper justice with mercy In mercy, make your heart pure and free from judgment and selfish intent In purifying your heart, have peace and share it with the world In doing all this, you have become righteousness, now be righteous even unto persecution. Blessed living = the Kingdom of Heaven Beatitude is the relationship between virtue and blessing. In your virtue, God will bless you and lead you to more virtue. Jesus’ “Way” teaches us that we are to become perfected in this way, but not on our own. It requires a relationship with God through him and the Holy Spirit (the Helper), and a relationship with the world. Virtue and blessing flow from God, and do not exist outside of relationship. The Beatitudes, like the Commandments, are the principles for ordering a new way of living for a new society. The commandments ordered the Chosen People. The Beatitudes order the Kingdom of God. Moses was the messenger of the law, but Jesus proclaims that he the fulfillment of the law…and the prophets. In him, we find God’s perfect law so that the law may be written on our hearts. The Beatitudes provide us with a processes for that law to be written on our hearts. Fatherman, good to see you posting again. I like your progression. It appeals to my mind and spirit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tariki Posted January 28, 2011 Author Share Posted January 28, 2011 Maybe time to move on....... Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tariki Posted January 29, 2011 Author Share Posted January 29, 2011 Maybe time to move on....... Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy. The more I reflect upon this, the more back to front it appears. And if not "back to front", then potentially very calculating! WE choose to be merciful, therefore the Divine is merciful towards us. And we are "merciful" (is it then really mercy?) so as to obtain our mercy - or forgiveness - from God. 1 John 4:10 This is love: not that we loved God, but that he has first loved us........ Following the same logic (if logic is the right word) we are first shown mercy, then, in response, are merciful. An ethics of gratitude. And if we are to recogise mercy, then we have seen some reason for our need of it, and if so then another form of ethics follows, an ethics of empathy. "Mutual forgivenes of each vice opens the gates of paradise." (William Blake) Personally I don't think "logic" is the right word. I don't really think logic has anything to do with grace, which to me is the heart and fountainhead of "mercy". And possibly it really isn't a case of what should come first, second, or even in between. I can't really look back at my own life experience and see any particular order. Its just the beatitude should have nothing to do with "calculation", either ours or the Divines - to be merciful IN ORDER to obtain mercy, or to be given mercy on condition that we are subsequently merciful. There is Grace.......in which we live and move and have our being (or non-being..... ) Anyway, after that waffle, I get back to my favorite subject, Merton quotes! One of his books is called "Raids on the Unspeakable" in which he comes across as very cryptic. I barely grasp just what he is saying, but just catch intimations. Here I think he is speaking about someting along the lines of what I was trying to say, but I'm not sure. Anyway, I just love the quote...... There is another kind of justice than the justice of number, which can neither forgive nor be forgiven. There is another kind of mercy than the mercy of Law which knows no absolution. There is the justice of newborn worlds which cannot be counted. There is a mercy of individual things that spring into being without reason. They are just without reason, and their mercy is without explanation. They have received rewards beyond description because they themselves refuse to be described. They are virtuous in the sight of God because their names do not identify them. Every plant that stands in the light of the sun is a saint and an outlaw. Every tree that brings forth blossoms without the command of man is powerful in the sight of God. Every star that man has not counted is a world of sanity and perfection. Every blade of grass is an angel singing in a shower of glory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeW Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 The more I reflect upon this, the more back to front it appears. And if not "back to front", then potentially very calculating! WE choose to be merciful, therefore the Divine is merciful towards us. And we are "merciful" (is it then really mercy?) so as to obtain our mercy - or forgiveness - from God. There does seem to be an implied quid pro quo: Show mercy and you will receive mercy. This begs the question, what if you don't show mercy. Should we show mercy to others in order to get it back or because it is the right thing to do? George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tariki Posted January 29, 2011 Author Share Posted January 29, 2011 what if you don't show mercy. Well, over in the Pure Land, you just keep receiving it. Finally everyone gets the point..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephM Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 There does seem to be an implied quid pro quo: Show mercy and you will receive mercy. This begs the question, what if you don't show mercy. Should we show mercy to others in order to get it back or because it is the right thing to do? George Hi George, In my view, it is not a matter of right and wrong or should or shouldn't. It is more a spiritual law of cause and effect. Sowing and reaping and giving and receiving and the like. Joseph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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