JosephM Posted August 3, 2009 Author Share Posted August 3, 2009 Chapter 7 The Tao is infinite, eternal. Why is it eternal? It was never born; thus it can never die. Why is it infinite? It has no desires for itself; thus it is present for all beings. The Master stays behind; that is why she is ahead. She is detached from all things; that is why she is one with them. Because she has let go of herself, she is perfectly fulfilled. Just a few comments on Chapter 7 above and what they speak to me..... Much of the orthodox teachings I grew up with present a God with desire. It now is my experience and understanding that God is complete, desireless and in need of nothing. It is that which is not eternal that is full of desires and God is present within them and used as they want as God is the source of all. The Master (teacher) lets go of self (ego) and God is uncovered. This detaches self from all things and Oneness is then seen. To me, this is the emerging of the 'new creature in Christ' as a process in the concept of time. It is a dying (or letting go of) daily to the that which is temporary and finite so that only that which is eternal shines through. Then the completeness is experienced and desires for the self are let go and fulfillment is realized. Actions then come out of the Love that is present for others which are not separate but One. Joseph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glintofpewter Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 Chapter 7 She is detached from all things; that is why she is one with them. These are the most challenging lines for me. Simply, my judgments about the person in front of me and the distractions of other thoughts keep me from being present and open and fully experiencing and being in relationship with the person in front of me. Dutch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soma Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 Chapter 7 She is detached from all things; that is why she is one with them. I feel as Progressive Christians when we dwell in the consciousness of God as the infinite Power then no human, devil or evil can do us harm. God is the one Power, the All-powerful and the only Power that we acknowledge, nothing less than Omnipresence. I feel when a Christian comes to understand this fact and the interconnectedness of all things, that person will know love; we’ll know the Tao; and we’ll know peace. This takes detachment from duality, the devil and material existence, but it shelters us from health problems, money worries, guilt and other failures that can cause us to be depressed. The ark of detachment shields us from life’s storms and its waves of destruction as we live in duality. The proof is by diving into God the Father, the Tao and then diving into dualism, materialism and comparing the difference. Therefore; it has to be spiritually discerned. Psalm 4:7 You have filled my heart with greater joy than when their grain and new wine abound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glintofpewter Posted August 7, 2009 Share Posted August 7, 2009 soma, The ark of detachment shields us from life’s storms and its waves of destruction as we live in duality. This sentence has an ironic or paradoxical quality but I like it. Dutch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soma Posted August 7, 2009 Share Posted August 7, 2009 Dutch, You discern the meaning behind the meaning not with your mind, but your Spirit so you appreciate the logic in the illogical. That is why I love Lao Tzu because he expresses the Tao by going beyond logic there by making us discern the message with the Spirit. "The myriad creatures in the world are born from Something, and Something from Nothing. —Lao Tzu (Taoist) Some other great quotes that do the same thing. The hidden God, the innermost Being of Divinity so to speak has neither qualities nor attributes. —Gershom Scholem (Jewish) Body surfing in big waves is blissful if one becomes one with the wave and rides it to shore. The problem is getting out to catch the wave. People battle the force of the water and keep getting pushed back and under until one finds that diving deep in the water the force of the wave has no effect. I feel it is the same with the mind in duality, which is in individuality because it can batter us, but if we dive deep within we can become one, divine and blissful in the unity all waves. Our mind perceives with the mundane senses so we see what is 'outside ourselves'. We view life from a perspective that we are separate from everything. I feel this causes our suffering that everything is separate from us. But in truth, the separate nature of our existence is a misunderstanding because everything in the universe (one verse) is interconnected and interdependent. Back to some great quotes. It is within our intellects, souls and bodies, in heaven, on earth, and whilst remaining the same in Itself, It is at once in, around and above the world, super-celestial, super-essential, a sun, a star, fire, water, spirit, dew, cloud, stone, rock, all that is; yet It is nothing. —Dionysius the Areopagite (Christian) The light by which the soul is illumined, in order that it may see and truly understand everything...is God himself. —St. Augustine (Christian) That Oneness is on the other side of descriptions and states. Nothing but duality enters speech's playing-field. —Rumi (Muslim) Words and sentences are produced by the law of causation and are mutually conditioning—they cannot express highest Reality. —The Lankavatara Sutra (Buddhist) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glintofpewter Posted August 8, 2009 Share Posted August 8, 2009 soma, but if we dive deep within we can become one, divine and blissful in the unity all waves. What I remember is that if I was being tumbled by the waves and sought deeper water I was disoriented at first in the deeper water. That is another truth that can be seen in the metaphor, I think. Just talking about someplace I haven't seen too much. Dutch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soma Posted August 8, 2009 Share Posted August 8, 2009 soma, What I remember is that if I was being tumbled by the waves and sought deeper water I was disoriented at first in the deeper water. That is another truth that can be seen in the metaphor, I think. Just talking about someplace I haven't seen too much. Dutch Dutch, Lao Tzu never said the word God in all he wrote. He knew God was beyond all words. He knew God. Dutch from your post I feel you dive deep and come to the surface with a post that makes us want to dive again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glintofpewter Posted August 8, 2009 Share Posted August 8, 2009 Soma, Thanks, Dutch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glintofpewter Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 Can we respond to Chapters 8 & 9 together? They both involve personal behavior. Dutch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soma Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 Can we respond to Chapters 8 & 9 together? They both involve personal behavior. Dutch CHAPTER 8 The supreme good is like water, which nourishes all things without trying to. It is content with the low places that people disdain. Thus it is like the Tao. In dwelling, live close to the ground. In thinking, keep to the simple. In conflict, be fair and generous. In governing, don't try to control. In work, do what you enjoy. In family life, be completely present. When you are content to be simply yourself and don't compare or compete, everybody will respect you. CHAPTER9 Fill your bowl to the brim and it will spill. Keep sharpening your knife and it will blunt. Chase after money and security and your heart will never unclench. Care about people's approval and you will be their prisoner. Do your work, then step back. The only path to serenity. ........................................................................................... To me these chapters talk about a balance between the soul and nature. I think that is where intuition comes in because it is beyond intelligence and is the medium for communication with the soul. I have noticed that many scientist have studied and researched intensely, but then in an instant of relaxation the theory is formed recombining all the concepts and thoughts to form an amazing break through. It seems intuition teams up with the intellect to balance the divine and physical to make the world a better place. We have free will and intuition, and our experiences help us to use them wisely if we are guided by spiritual resources. The more choices we make, even though some will be wrong, the more we learn. We need to be proactive and not just sit around like puppets waiting to be told what to do. Our intuition guides us with ingenuity and helps us make things happen to make the world a better place if we learn to trust and follow it. We have heard the saying that God helps those that help themselves. The more spiritually mature we become, the better we’ll be able to balance our soul with nature to trust in divine destiny and do our part to help it manifest. Intuition the voice of the nonphysical balances well with the intellect, the voice of the physical world. Therefore, I would encourage spiritual aspirants to learn about the different spiritual traditions and incorporate the wisdom practices they are attracted to into their daily lives. Wisdom practices would be spiritual practices that calm the mind because the memory of God comes to a still mind. We study the wisdom of other souls there by trusting and learning to listen to our intuition, which communicates the wisdom of our own soul. Every situation or action taken with the proper balance and perspective gives the opportunity for wisdom, healing and spiritual growth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rivanna Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 I like Mitchell’s note on chapter 8 – “we are all fundamentally water…. we never really leave the amniotic fluid of birth; it is the state of total nourishment and unconditional love that is always present for us, containing everything we could possible want. In fact, we are that fluid of love.” Chapter 9 is one of the many advocating simplicity, gentleness and moderation -- recurring themes throughout the Tao. Avoiding excess and extremes….something I need to remind myself of at times, as a former poet/reviewer trained to write intensely. We see the “virtue of not striving” praised in the bible, or the new testament at least, for example Matthew 12 on the savior –he shall not strive nor be heard crying out in the streets, etc. Jesus’ parables also suggest that the kingdom does not come through anxious compulsiveness but from following what is natural. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glintofpewter Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 8 The supreme good is like water which nourishes all things without trying to. we never really leave the amniotic fluid of birth; it is the state of total nourishment and unconditional love that is always present for us, containing everything we could possible want. rivanna, I like this expansion of water as the original nourishment and transcendent love It is content with the low places that people disdain. Thus it is like the Tao. soma wrote elsewhere People battle the force of the water and keep getting pushed back and under until one finds that diving deep in the water the force of the wave has no effect. Once again if we try to stay on top of things we will always struggle. If we stop the struggle we will find ourselves in the deep waters that nourish. I see sufficiency as a common theme in these two chapters. Be content, satisfied, centered so one is grounded. If I feel that there isn't enough for me, that life extant is insufficient for my needs then I strive for more than is necessary and there is waste of food/nourishment, effort and anxiety. In family life, be completely present. Whoa! convicted I am. In work, do what you enjoy. Looking at other translations this seems to be an Americanized view. The idea of sufficiency also applies here, I think. One alternative (my phrasing): In work, Enjoy what you do. Others emphasize competency, work sufficient in quality, and timeliness, work at the time needed. Dutch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephM Posted August 12, 2009 Author Share Posted August 12, 2009 To make a long story short... Chapter 9 to me says that serenity is found not in indulgence of self but rather in doing and witness of the doing. A stepping back from self. Joseph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephM Posted August 18, 2009 Author Share Posted August 18, 2009 Chapter 10 Open for comments ... Can you coax your mind from its wandering and keep to the original oneness? In Christianity we are told "And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind" Romans 12:2 (KJV) and again "Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on thee:" Isaiah 26:3 (KJV) To me the word renew means to return ones mind to its original state. To me that is where the mind is still and perfect peace and not anxious for anything. It seems to me in that stillness and silence God's presence and oneness is known. Can you let your body become supple as a newborn child's? Can you cleanse your inner vision until you see nothing but the light? Can you love people and lead them without imposing your will? Can you deal with the most vital matters by letting events take their course? Can you step back from you own mind and thus understand all things? This group of questions sound like a challenge to the self to keep healthy and to step back from itself until only the source remains as light. Part of the exercise includes not trying to control events but rather letting them take their natural course by leading and doing without imposing self will. In doing so there is a promise to understand all things. In Christianity, all knowledge and wisdom is hid in Christ which is portrayed as light. To be in Christ is to not be in self or your own mind but as Christianity says.. "Let this mind be in you that was in Christ Jesus" To me there is similarity in Christianity because it seems to me we are to step back from our own and put on the mind of Christ because " we have the mind of Christ" 1 Cor 2:16 (KJV) Giving birth and nourishing, having without possessing, acting with no expectations, leading and not trying to control: this is the supreme virtue. These seem to me actions derived from a parallel in Christianity called the fruits of the Spirit such as kindness, love, gentleness, goodness, faith, and meekness. Just some interfaith thoughts I have relating to reading this Chapter of the Tao. Joseph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rivanna Posted August 19, 2009 Share Posted August 19, 2009 I like how you’ve drawn those parallels between the Tao and scripture. My sense is that “letting things take their course” sounds like total submission or weakness to us as Christians, whereas to the Taoist it’s finding a happy medium between extremes of rigidity and passivity. Mitchell’s note on chapter 10 echoes the water imagery from earlier chapters: “suppleness is really fluidity. When your body is supple you can flow in any direction.” The aspiration of leading without controlling -- calm flexibility -- is a repeated ideal throughout the Tao. I am not sure if it would be considered equivalent to the teaching of the new testament – as when Jesus says in Mark 9, "If anyone wants to be first, he must be the very last, and the servant of all." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephM Posted August 19, 2009 Author Share Posted August 19, 2009 "having without possessing," This line got a clearer meaning today as I was baby sitting my 2 year old granddaughter for breakfast. My wife had cut up a whole banana for her that she would of course not be able to finish after eating her cereal. Anyway she handed me a slice (50cent size) of her banana and I thought she wanted to give it to me so I thanked her and ate it. Well she pitched a fit and said "my banana" "give me my banana". Obviously it was too late so I pointed to the many pieces left and even tried to hand her one but to no avail. She had identified with the piece she gave me as "my" and not to eat but to cut in half for her (which grandpas are sometimes ignorant of) and it was gone and she was suffering and making a big commotion over it. Being the magician I am, I reached over to grab another piece without her seeing and pretended to take it out of my now empty mouth and acknowledged it was "hers" . I cut it in half for her and she immediately was at peace again. It seems to me that it is indeed some loss of sense of identity that causes our mind to create suffering when we possess something my calling it "mine" or "my" and then lose it even though it is not so important and can be replaced. Perhaps it would be good if we should look at all things as on loan for temporary use only and we will not suffer loss when it is taken away. Then we can have without possessing Perhaps we remain children longer than we think and Kids are a great teacher. Love Joseph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rivanna Posted August 19, 2009 Share Posted August 19, 2009 As you suggest, the childlike state is celebrated in the Tao unself-conscious spontaneity. (Essential for esthetic types like meas Joni Mitchell said, "You've got to keep the child alive, you can't create without it." ) I meant to add about "letting things take their course" that it does not mean apathy or indifference but rather, like your story, closer to a parent caring without overcontrolling. A delicate balance. It's interesting to compare this version to Jane English's translation. This one starts the chapter with "Can you coax your mind from its wandering and keep to the original oneness?" while hers begins "Carrying body and soul and embracing the one, can you avoid separation?" His "Acting with no expectations" she translates as "Are you able to do nothing?" -- perhaps the biggest challenge of all in the Taothough for Christians that doesn't rule out praying. Edited per Rivanna instructions - JosephM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soma Posted August 19, 2009 Share Posted August 19, 2009 Can you love people and lead themwithout imposing your will? A concept from "A Course in Miracles" that rings true in my mind. Love is already there so our purpose is to remove the barriers to love. I feel this is a nice way to love without imposing will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glintofpewter Posted August 21, 2009 Share Posted August 21, 2009 I liked chapter 10 because it seemed practical compared to the earlier pieces. As Joseph said This group of questions sound like a challenge to the self to keep healthy and to step back from itself until only the source remains as light. Keeping healthy - I find that this study gives me the words and focus to move toward health. Breathe rivanna wrote It's interesting to compare this version to Jane English's translation. This one starts the chapter with "Can you coax your mind from its wandering and keep to the original oneness?" while hers begins "Carrying body and soul and embracing the one, can you avoid separation?" "Body and soul" Some how this seems related to "pray in everything you do" connecting heaven and earth in all that we do. I meant to add about "letting things take their course" that it does not mean apathy or indifference but rather, like your story, closer to a parent caring without overcontrolling. A delicate balance. Parents act from their values but don't control how their kids turn out. A hard road. Bill Cosby, as Cliff Huxtable said about parenting, "Sometimes you are lucky and sometimes you are not." As the gates of Heaven open and close can you remain steadfast as a mother bird who sits in her nest? Jonathan Star notes that the mother bird keeps to her own nature inspite for gain and loss, ups and downs of life, but also is "steadfast in her devotion in her duty" (as mother). Chapter 10 The same gate image is found Chapter 6 (see post #45) She [Hidden creator] is the very face of the Absolute The gate to the source of all things eternal Coming out the gate is all that is created going in the gate is how we access the eternal. What I understand from this in and out is that appreciating the created Earth without grasping and clinging to it, non-attachment, is the Way to experience Heaven, the eternal Tao. Dutch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephM Posted August 21, 2009 Author Share Posted August 21, 2009 (snip) My sense is that "letting things take their course" sounds like total submission or weakness to us as Christians, whereas to the Taoist it's finding a happy medium between extremes of rigidity and passivity. I think it does sound that way to us as Christians as you have said but then I am reminded of what Paul said when it is recorded he said "out of weakness they were made strong" and "we are sown in weakness and raised in power" and the strength of God is made perfect in weakness". Total submission seems to me is what Jesus did when he went to the cross. (snip) The aspiration of leading without controlling -- calm flexibility -- is a repeated ideal throughout the Tao. I am not sure if it would be considered equivalent to the teaching of the new testament – as when Jesus says in Mark 9, "If anyone wants to be first, he must be the very last, and the servant of all." Perhaps in the context of leading as a servant it would be leading without controlling? As a manager in this life in a manufacturing environment, with supervisors and foremen under me, I found myself most effective in leading them by serving them by removing obstacles that were in their way and beyond their individual control. In effect, to me. a leader is truly a servant and if he puts himself last he will be made to be first. Hence the "first shall be last; and the last shall be first." Mt 19:30 may even apply to a more broad understanding of entering the kingdom of heaven. Sound principles seem to me to have many applications to work equally well in. Karen, Thanks for bringing up those points to ponder. Joseph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soma Posted August 21, 2009 Share Posted August 21, 2009 "Parents act from their values but don't control how their kids turn out. A hard road. Bill Cosby, as Cliff Huxtable said about parenting, "Sometimes you are lucky and sometimes you are not." I forget where I heard this, maybe it was Kahil Gibran. He said a parent points the bow in the proper direction and shoots the arrow of guidance in the right direction, but it is up to the arrow where it falls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 Hi everyone. I have some catching up to do, so please bear with me as I return to chapter 5. I’m still reading through all the responses since I last posted, so pardon me if I repeat what has already been said. The Tao doesn't take sides;it gives birth to both good and evil. The Master doesn't take sides; she welcomes both saints and sinners. The Tao is like a bellows: it is empty yet infinitely capable. The more you use it, the more it produces; the more you talk of it, the less you understand. Hold on to the center. “Hold on to the center” is an instruction that has come to mean a lot to me as I try to navigate my life. It’s easy for me to lose sight of my priorities, to become unbalanced, to become intimidated by the uncertainty of the future, and by the question what I ought to do. But I find that if I hold to the center, the center holds me. The Tao doesn't take sides;it gives birth to both good and evil. I am reminded of Isaiah 45:7: I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. The comparison is limited, obviously. The Tao has a character that goes beyond moral category. The Tao is called the Great Mother:empty yet inexhaustible, it gives birth to infinite worlds. It is always present within you. You can use it any way you want. The last sentence is very interesting. I am reminded by what Alan Watts said about the Tao being like a river. Paraphrasing, he said that a river is not there just for your benefit, but from it you can refresh yourself; you can sustain life. It does not exist just for you to drink from, but you are welcome to drink. The water is there, the river flows in and through you, but the choice is yours whether to drink or not. Again from Isaiah: Isaiah 55:1 Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price. The Tao is infinite, eternal.Why is it eternal? It was never born; thus it can never die. Why is it infinite? It has no desires for itself; thus it is present for all beings. The Master stays behind; that is why she is ahead. She is detached from all things; that is why she is one with them. Because she has let go of herself, she is perfectly fulfilled. It is interesting to contemplate that the Tao is said to not exist for or unto itself. “Has no desires for itself.” The Tao, as I understand, cannot be conceived as an object, and therefore “it” is selfless by nature. The idea seems to be that the Tao does not hold on to itself; it has let go, and therefore can be whatever it needs to be to all things without trying. The sage, understanding this, lives at one with the way of things and too lets go. The supreme good is like water,which nourishes all things without trying to. It is content with the low places that people disdain. Thus it is like the Tao. Undoubtedly my reference to the river finds its root here. For Lao-tse it seems that true virtue is always that which arises spontaneously without trying, as opposed to actions that are forced, unnatural, and at root insincere. Here I think the “supreme good” and the “not taking sides” (in ch. 5) are related. The Tao gives sustenance to all things liberally without regard to convention. It does so spontaneously, naturally. It does not withhold itself from the low places. Can you coax your mind from its wanderingand keep to the original oneness? … Can you deal with the most vital matters by letting events take their course? Can you step back from you own mind and thus understand all things? Giving birth and nourishing, having without possessing, acting with no expectations, leading and not trying to control: this is the supreme virtue. We have already discussed the notion of no-self, of not-clinging. I would like to comment, then, on this Taoist and Chinese notion of passivity. By not trying to control, one can lead greatly. By having one mind, one can accomplish many tasks. Having one mind and being passive are related, in order to have one mind you have to let go of yourself and the doubled-mindedness of dualistic thought. As I understand, the Chinese mind seeks a natural and spontaneous path. Rigid order is not primary. This is true even aesthetically: in traditional painting asymmetry and ambiguity are the rules. I would like to quote something [translated] from a contemporary Chinese hermit monk (you can find it in ), because I think it is illuminating of the Chinese perspective on this subject: When life begins we are tender and weak, when life ends we are stiff and rigid. All things: the grass, the trees, the animals, in life are soft and pliant - in death they are dry and brittle. An army that cannot yield will suffer defeat, and a tree that cannot bend will break. So the soft and supple are the companions of life, while the stiff and unyielding are the companions of death. Surrender brings perfection. Embrace emptiness, and the whole universe is yours. The sage becomes nothing, and gains everything. Not displaying himself, he shines forth; not promoting himself, he is distinguished. Not claiming reward, he gains endless merit. Not seeking glory, his glory endures. He knows to follow, so he is given command. He does not compete, so no one competes with him. Such a being rides upon the clouds, and enters the sun, passing out of this world with ease and into the Eternal. Fear nothing except the failure to experience your true nature. Speak nothing unless you have lived it first. The gate of heaven is wide open with not a single obstruction before it. I sometimes wonder, when will I wake up? -wake up to see that there is truly nothing to fear. I sometimes wonder if I am a man, having dreamed that I am a butterfly, or am I butterfly dreaming I am a man? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephM Posted August 25, 2009 Author Share Posted August 25, 2009 Glad to see you back on this thread Mike, I am touched by your insightful post. Joseph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glintofpewter Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 Mike I think you have helped us "catch up". Another connection with the hermit's words: The sage becomes nothing, and gains everything. Not displaying himself, he shines forth; not promoting himself, he is distinguished. Not claiming reward, he gains endless merit. Not seeking glory, his glory endures. He knows to follow, so he is given command. He does not compete, so no one competes with him. Such a being rides upon the clouds, and enters the sun, passing out of this world with ease and into the Eternal. Isaiah 40:29-31 He gives power to the faint and strengthens the powerless. Even youths will faint and be weary, and the young will fall exhausted [in their striving?]; but those who wait for the Lord shall renew their strength and they shall mount up with wings like eagles, they shall run and not be weary, they shall walk and not faint. Not a complete parallel and from a different world view but I was struck by Such a being rides upon the clouds, and enters the sun, passing out of this world with ease and into the Eternal. Dutch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 Glad to see you back on this thread Mike, I am touched by your insightful post. Joseph Thanks Joseph, glad to be back. Not a complete parallel and from a different world view but I was struck by Such a being rides upon the clouds, and enters the sun, passing out of this world with ease and into the Eternal. Dutch Thanks Dutch. I found the comparison meaningful. Both texts conjure a powerful image. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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