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sonoman

But What If I'm Not Really A Progressive Christian?

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Greetings from the land of Gnostic Christian heresy. I don't know what to expect in the way of toleration of non-Progressive Christian views which is why I was so hesitant to join this TCPC forum but I guess I will see if there's any compatibility between the two. Actually, my Gnosticism is heretical to classical Gnosticism too so I'm running out of options :blink: but, well, here I are loaded with Gnostic visions of a new Christianity so let's see if there's any room for me at the table here..

 

I've been receiving religious visions for some 30 years, an aging social change and environmental activist hippie now at 65 but still going strong. Have produced a few books along the way, not in print but online as in keeping with my job description of profitless prophet at large.

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Welcome sonoman,

 

I think you will find a diverse mixture of people here with different but progressive views that came out of fundamental Christianity. PC here trys to be inclusive and tolerant of all views that are respectful of others. Feel free to share your experiences and insights.

 

Again welcome,

Love Joseph

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Greetings from the land of Gnostic Christian heresy. I don't know what to expect in the way of toleration of non-Progressive Christian views which is why I was so hesitant to join this TCPC forum but I guess I will see if there's any compatibility between the two. Actually, my Gnosticism is heretical to classical Gnosticism too so I'm running out of options :blink: but, well, here I are loaded with Gnostic visions of a new Christianity so let's see if there's any room for me at the table here..

 

I've been receiving religious visions for some 30 years, an aging social change and environmental activist hippie now at 65 but still going strong. Have produced a few books along the way, not in print but online as in keeping with my job description of profitless prophet at large.

welcome sonoman

 

I don't post much but enjoy reflecting on all views. I appreciate this site. sincerely Bob VE

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Greetings from the land of Gnostic Christian heresy. I don't know what to expect in the way of toleration of non-Progressive Christian views which is why I was so hesitant to join this TCPC forum but I guess I will see if there's any compatibility between the two. Actually, my Gnosticism is heretical to classical Gnosticism too so I'm running out of options :blink: but, well, here I are loaded with Gnostic visions of a new Christianity so let's see if there's any room for me at the table here..

 

I've been receiving religious visions for some 30 years, an aging social change and environmental activist hippie now at 65 but still going strong. Have produced a few books along the way, not in print but online as in keeping with my job description of profitless prophet at large.

 

As I understand it, Gnosticism is highly compatible with Progressive Christianity. I would love to hear your views. Welcome.

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As I understand it, Gnosticism is highly compatible with Progressive Christianity. I would love to hear your views. Welcome.

 

Remember this post when you're ready to bring in the stake and firewood but I like the receptive tone so far.. :)

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Welcome sonoman!

 

I think you'll be fine. In the time I've been here I've seen some pretty diverse opinions, but the only person that had trouble fitting in was a fundamentalist bent on changing everyone's minds. For example, we have one member who claims to channel Jesus; while most on this board probably don't believe in her ability, her views are listened to respectfully. I'd say as long as you're respectful everyone will treat you fairly!

 

:)

McKenna

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Hello sonoman,

 

My first response (and first responses are often wrong) is that I see some red flags. So let me post something that will say a lot more about me than it does about you.

 

A review of the history of this forum shows that some have come here to tell us what God, Jesus or Christ actually says, does or wants. My standard response is that those who want to reveal the Divine directly eventually get caught by their own words.

 

On the other hand if you want to come here and tell us what you heard God, Jesus or Christ say or what you have experienced as Divine revelation filtered through your own experience then I would welcome you to do so.

 

The key is simply the difference between posting “God says” versus “I heard God say”.

 

You will see several examples of this difference within this forum. DavidK wants to tell us what “God says”. Jen (canajan, eh?) wants to tell us what “Jesus says”. Frankly, I have no patience for this whereas you will see that others will give you much more freedom to post (I suspect this is because freedom is more important than anything else for some people).

 

You will see the word “respect” used a lot on this forum. For me it is an important concept in the sense that we owe each other a basic level of civility even when it is obvious that our views will never come together (you will see some evidence of the lack of civility by those who lift up respect as a virtue). On the other hand “respect” to me does not mean that I should accept your view on an equal basis as the view that I hold. This would mean that these views are no more important than what flavor of ice cream you like. If we are civil to each other we can do many things together but there are some things we can not do together with those whose views are fundamentally different than our own. One of those things is that we can not call everyone a Progressive Christian just because they may want to join us. That is not a matter of lack of respect. That is a matter of integrity.

 

Thank you for recognizing the difference between the Debate area and the more protected area. Right now you have not posted enough to tell me a lot. I just see some red flags. I look forward to hearing from you more.

 

Sincerely,

David

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The key is simply the difference between posting “God says” versus “I heard God say”.

 

You will see several examples of this difference within this forum. DavidK wants to tell us what “God says”. Jen (canajan, eh?) wants to tell us what “Jesus says”. Frankly, I have no patience for this whereas you will see that others will give you much more freedom to post (I suspect this is because freedom is more important than anything else for some people).

Serendipity. I go to read the morning newspaper and I find Obama preaching to Nortre Dame about faith. He is reported to have said “the ultimate irony of faith is that it necessarily admits doubt….This doubt should not push away our faith, but it should humble us.” Now I do not see either DavidK nor Jen as having a large ego. However, their messages are given without doubt. “This is what God says”. “This is what Jesus says”. DavidK and Jen may say that it is good to doubt the revelations, but that is not the point. Their messages do not start with a message of faith that “necessarily admits doubt”. It is not, as Obama says, “ultimately” based upon the irony of faith that admits doubt.

 

But if you say “I heard God say” rather than saying “God says” then you start at that ultimate position of faith admitting doubt. Obama, the preacher. Impressive.

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Anyway, welcome to this forum where it is a comon problem to not stay on subject. My posts are a great example. I take a place for introductions and create a theological point.

Edited by David

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Serendipity. I go to read the morning newspaper and I find Obama preaching to Nortre Dame about faith. He is reported to have said “the ultimate irony of faith is that it necessarily admits doubt….This doubt should not push away our faith, but it should humble us.” Now I do not see either DavidK nor Jen as having a large ego. However, their messages are given without doubt. “This is what God says”. “This is what Jesus says”. DavidK and Jen may say that it is good to doubt the revelations, but that is not the point. Their messages do not start with a message of faith that “necessarily admits doubt”. It is not, as Obama says, “ultimately” based upon the irony of faith that admits doubt.

 

But if you say “I heard God say” rather than saying “God says” then you start at that ultimate position of faith admitting doubt. Obama, the preacher. Impressive.

 

David, a chaneller says, by definition, "I heard ..."? They report what "they heard". To channel, verb.

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It is claimed to be “direct dictation” just as DavidK would claim that the Bible is “direct dictation”. DavidK would obviously also say that the direct dictation of the Bible was “heard” by those who wrote the Bible. But, by taking the “I” out of the effective process doubt is eliminated. There is no “I” between what “God says” and “Jesus says” other than as you point out the person taking dictation does “hear”. Therefore, if you accept this, it is appropriate for these people to say “God says” rather than “I heard God say”. The reporting process of the "I heard" is not consequential to the dictation so there is no need to say anything except "God says".

 

Are you supporting the ability of anyone to report what they "heard" without “interpretation” of the “I” and thus take away doubt as ultimately a part of faith? Perhaps we should move this to a new thread to talk about. Want to?

Edited by David

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It is claimed to be “direct dictation” just as DavidK would claim that the Bible is “direct dictation”. DavidK would obviously also say that the direct dictation of the Bible was “heard” by those who wrote the Bible. But, by taking the “I” out of the effective process doubt is eliminated. There is no “I” between what “God says” and “Jesus says” other than as you point out the person taking dictation does “hear”. Therefore, if you accept this, it is appropriate for these people to say “God says” rather than “I heard God say”. The reporting process of the "I heard" is not consequential to the dictation so there is no need to say anything except "God says".

 

Are you supporting the ability of anyone to report what they "heard" without “interpretation” of the “I” and thus take away doubt as ultimately a part of faith? Perhaps we should move this to a new thread to talk about. Want to?

 

I hear what I hear from people. You are free do the same. If you think there is no difference between davidk and Jen, then I suggest you take it to debate and dialogue forum. There we could discuss the difference between the "I" and the "me" and the history of the difference. However, I do not think you can make the argument about individuals, you will have to make do with concepts.

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I hear what I hear from people. You are free do the same. If you think there is no difference between davidk and Jen, then I suggest you take it to debate and dialogue forum. There we could discuss the difference between the "I" and the "me" and the history of the difference. However, I do not think you can make the argument about individuals, you will have to make do with concepts.

I’m lost. You hear what you hear and I hear what I hear I guess is what I was trying to say. But did I say that DavidK and Jen are not different? (I said they are the same when it comes to "direct dictation"). And what is this about “I” and “me” as being significant to the discussion? What are you trying to say about individuals and concepts? Sounds like we may need several threads. Since I would just repeat what I have already said perhaps you can start since you seem to have some things to say.

Edited by David

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So, it would seem that if I spout off as a self-proclaimed Prophet of God bringing the new Good News direct from on high, some of you might take offense? Oh, dang! There goes my Calling card. Now I'll have to reprint them without the "Prophet of God" in boldface, maybe invisible ink would work..

 

I know few if any in our day and age or in any age for that matter want to hear someone coming along claiming special spiritual status and worse, new messages from God, but what happens when I believe it? Besides getting ousted from religious forums for being another uppity religious nutcase? Sure, I know there are jillions of us who claim to hear from God directly so the odds are most all who do make such claims are bogus but still, here I am with these grandiose religious visions that don't seem to ever stop coming. I can't ignore the fact that I've had these visions and revelations just as I can't ignore the fact that some powerful spiritual magic has happened when I acted the good Muslim surrendering myself to the will of God. I mean how often is it that over 500 Arab Christians in Nazareth, Israel honor at their annual Easter celebration a radical gnostic American Christian visionary and the Gift of God, the Sign of the Messiah that he brought to the Holy Land in 2003?

 

Here's my problem posting my particular religious views: I do take my religious visions seriously. I do act on them. And amazing things have happened. But it's always a no-no in Abrahamic religious consciousness to claim prophesy bearing status even though the Abrahamic religions are based on revelations from prophets. Still they are not wanted even when there's been a drought of Jewish spiritual vision since the time of Christ. Muhammad didn't introduce anything new except dragging Arabs and anyone else agreeing into a Muslim revision of Old Testament Judaism. Joseph Smith brought something new but he wasn't Jewish and so his spiritual vision was partial. Now a Christian visionary of Jewish descent has come along with a new Christian vision but one still in fulfillment of the Gospels. Do I keep my mouth of God shut and cater to prevailing sentiments that do not want the Scripture boats rocked or worse, capsized? Or do I stick to my guns and post my truth come hell or high water or, gasp!, forum membership banishment? I have prophetic religious visions. That's the honest truth. I cannot hide that fact. So there you have it. Now where's this Jen person when I need some Prophets R Us group support..

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Sonoman,

 

Why don't you start a thread under Other wisdom traditions or if you thing it is progressive Christianity under the debate and discussion area. We will see how it goes. In my view sharing is fine. Proslectyzing is not. So have at it and perhaps we can all learn something in a civil fashion. As long as you are not disrespectful of others and are no pushing it on others it may be of interest. Welcome again.

 

Love Joseph

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I agree. Please post in the debate area. I hope Jen does talk with you. Jen is very serious about her claim also. And I am serious about my positions also. But I like your sense of humor. It may end up like my relationship with DavidK. I appreciate him as a person who has taken much grief from me with civility and who also has a good sense of humor.

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It is claimed to be "direct dictation" just as DavidK would claim that the Bible is "direct dictation". DavidK would obviously also say that the direct dictation of the Bible was "heard" by those who wrote the Bible. But, by taking the "I" out of the effective process doubt is eliminated. There is no "I" between what "God says" and "Jesus says" other than as you point out the person taking dictation does "hear". Therefore, if you accept this, it is appropriate for these people to say "God says" rather than "I heard God say". The reporting process of the "I heard" is not consequential to the dictation so there is no need to say anything except "God says".

 

Are you supporting the ability of anyone to report what they "heard" without "interpretation" of the "I" and thus take away doubt as ultimately a part of faith? Perhaps we should move this to a new thread to talk about. Want to?

 

David,

Iit seems to me it would be good to allow both Jen and Davidk as members to speak for themselves. Sonoman can make his own view of them. Perhaps it is best to get your point accross without using a name as if you are speaking for them. It seems to me it would be more courteous. Yes? You may be representing them accurately but I would ask the same of them if they try to speak for you. (unless of course permission has been given)

 

Love Joseph

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Thank you for your observation. I have asked DavidK before if he objected to my continued use of him as a symbol for the faith position that he represents. From now on I will just refer to those who channel the historical Jesus.

Edited by David

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I’m lost. You hear what you hear and I hear what I hear I guess is what I was trying to say. But did I say that DavidK and Jen are not different? (I said they are the same when it comes to "direct dictation"). And what is this about “I” and “me” as being significant to the discussion? What are you trying to say about individuals and concepts? Sounds like we may need several threads. Since I would just repeat what I have already said perhaps you can start since you seem to have some things to say.

 

The theory (matched by scientific evidence) supports Jung's theory of introversion and extraversion. In this case, the source of "direct dictation" are very different, as one is internally sourced and the other externally sourced. This has been much discussed on this board over a long period of time. My point follows Jung in that we have yet to find an ethical system that does justice to both. That would be a good debate, IMO.

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Sonomon,

 

One who comes to this forum to correct us while rejecting our core identity is easily dismissed. That has nothing to do with evaluating your epistemology or your philosophy. Having said that there are many things about your writings that are creative and I love creativity. I found that any truth therein is like truth found in fiction. It may not be factual but it may be true. But you obviously have no interest in Progressive Christianity. So as far as this forum is concerned I would not promote you. If we were sitting down together having coffee I would quickly try to find out if I had to accept that you are a messenger from some god with direct dictation for me. If so, I doubt that I would finish the coffee. But if you made me laugh then who knows we could have breakfast.

 

David

Edited by David

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