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Bobd

The Gnostics Have Different View Of Point 1

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They show that through a concept called Ialdabaoth that Christianity, Judaism and Islam have distorted the image of god by understanding god through the teaching of one person; either Jesus, Jehovah, or Mohammad; that each has chosen as their idol.

 

A major problem observed by the Gnostics is organized religion’s presentation of the image of god. No one seems to know who or what god is. At least, they don’t think they know. There are those who seem to regard “Him” as a divine all powerful, all loving, mighty, all seeing male deity performing miracles. Some think “He” needs to be worshiped, loved and feared. Others regard “Him” as a meek preacher who taught great wisdom, suffered on a cross and who also needs to be worshiped. Some theologians even say that if we don’t believe in “Him” and worship “Him” as our Lord and Savior, we will go to hell. Still others see “Him” as the creator of the Universe. No one can ever be sure of any of this because “He” is invisible. So, we can’t ask “Him” outright. “He” seems to be hiding and no matter where you look, you simply cannot see, hear, touch, smell, taste or psychically perceive “Him”. It appears that this third party god is completely unclear. The same is true for the second party god called “your god”.

 

Enter organized religion whose life blood is the fuzziness of god. They have the answers to the questions about whom and what this mysterious invisible god is all about! They’ve got the Old Testament, the Tanakh, the New Testament and the Qur’an. They’ve divided themselves into religious factions and each group proclaims the clearness of their invisible god while judging other groups’ god to be fuzzy. Actually, there is no way you can create a religious sect or a new religion without the belief that your god is perfectly clear and everyone else’s god is fuzzy.

 

According to the Bible, god tells us not to murder. And yet “He” murders the whole world except Noah and his family. There are numerous incidents in the Old Testament of wholesale murder sanctioned by or committed by god. Is god an example of how we should not treat our neighbors? It seems strange and unclear why god would murder, tell Moses and Joshua to murder people of “His” choosing and tell the rest of us not to. The New Testament “god” says to love your neighbor as yourself and practiced that philosophy until his “death?”. We seem to have a contradiction between the Old and New Testament god. Is the Son, perhaps, a new model of god? As we move into the New Testament, we discover that Christians created their god by taking this holy, jealous, powerful, creating, vengeful, murdering, destroying Old Testament god from the Jews and changed “Him” to god the Father, god the Son and god the Holy Ghost. Some Christians even add another dimension giving “Him” a mother Mary called the Holy Mother of god. Wow! That’s quite a feat. Apparently Christian religious scholars are saying that this god has manifested himself as a man called Jesus Christ as part of this trinity to proclaim a new image. How can we accept that buzz? Shouldn’t this all powerful, all knowing god have had that image in the first place if it is such a wonderful way to be?

 

This awesome, compassionate, gay hating, gracious, murderous, forgiving, jealous, holy, creating, powerful, vengeful, commanding, Father and Son god who works wonders reminds me of the expression, “A bare foot boy with shoes on stood sitting in the grass.” I sense that awesome poetic un-clarity that fills our minds with inconsistency, ambiguity and fuzziness inducing us to worship “Him” with fanatical enthusiasm in the hope of finding the clarity we are looking for. This god who we call the giver of the law is a very strange beast indeed. The Gnostics call him the demiurge who is created by Ialdabaoth which is a place in our consciousness. WE CREATED THESE IDOL GODS. Over the long term, we use our collective thoughts to come up with warped and demented images of god such as the above. These thoughts are driven by the thirst for power and the male ego. To have power over people you must have an image of god that you control and people believe, and therefore puts the proponents of this dogmatic god, in a position where they can act as its emissary. Those who do not believe in the image they have created, must therefore become their adversaries because they would lose their power over their believers if the believers decided to believe the heretics.

 

With that said; where do we find the true wisdom of Jesus? Most of it can be found in the 5 gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John and Thomas. However, there is another problem we have in the canonical gospels. Male egos and power struggles have produced distortions in the canonical gospels. One example is the creation of narrative built around the gospel Q which makes them appear to fit into the already distorted teachings of the Old Testament. Another example is the trinity idol, and another is the perverted reasoning around the so called virgin birth. The Gospel of Thomas has remained hidden for 1700 years and consequently there is much less distortion in it. Readings that had a powerful affect on me and that may help you come to these conclusions are:

1. Paul Johnson – A History of Christianity

2. Georg Feuerstein – Sacred Sexuality

3. Zoe Oldenbourg – Massacre at Montsegur

4. Peter Brown – Power and Persuasion in Late Antiquity

5. Willis Barnstone & Marvin Meyer - The Gnostic Bible

6. Bentley Layton – The Gnostic Scriptures

7. Kurt Rudolph – Gnosis, The Nature and History of Gnosticism

8. Alvin Boyd Kuhn – A Rebirth of Christianity

9. June Singer – Androgyny

10. Elaine Pagels – The Gnostic Paul; Beyond Belief, and The Gnostic Gospels

11. G. R. S. Mead – Pistis Sophia

12. Tom Harpur – The Pagan Christ

13. John Shelby Spong – The Sins of Scripture

14. J. A. B. van Buitenen – The Mahabharata Volumes I, II, & III.

15. Stephen Mitchell – Bhagavad Gita

16. Muhammad Safrulla Khan – The Qur’an

 

You must also have a working knowledge of the Canonical Bible. There are other readings, but this list will get you there in the shortest amount of time. Books by Stephan Hoeller, whom I regard as an icon of Gnosticism, are very interesting, but they often tend to take you deeper into Gnostic symbolism, rather than relating it to the real world.

 

The Gnostic view is that basing a religion on the wisdom of one man is narrow and warped. In all likelihood, the wisdom attributed to Jesus comes from a long history of accumulated wisdom that was known in Jesus’ time; a fact that was suppressed by the powerful Roman church to be replaced by their idol Jesus, whom they claimed was the originator of this wisdom. Jesus may have been a keeper of this wisdom, but he was certainly not the originator.

 

In the Gnostic Christian view, point 1 would read:

 

By calling ourselves progressive Gnostic Christians, we take up the cross of eternal life and follow Me for no one comes to the father except through Me. I exist as the living god of love and all else is being created by Me.

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Jesus may have been a keeper of this wisdom, but he was certainly not the originator.

 

In the Gnostic Christian view, point 1 would read:

 

By calling ourselves progressive Gnostic Christians, we take up the cross of eternal life and follow Me for no one comes to the father except through Me. I exist as the living god of love and all else is being created by Me.

 

Thank you very much, Bobd, but this is not a Gnostic site. It is a Progressive Christian site. If you don't feel comfortable asking questions about what Jesus taught and what Jesus understood to be the the Way, then perhaps you'd be more content posting on a site where others who share your spiritual understanding are gathered.

 

I respect your right to have your own opinions. However, you seem less interested in discussion about learning how to love your neighbour as yourself, and more interested in coverting TCPC readers to Gnosticism. Jesus, as he has clearly expressed elsewhere on this site, was not a Gnostic.

 

May the joys of this festive season be shared by you and your loved ones.

 

Amen.

Jen

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Am I the only one here who has a problem with the idea that one participant is claiming to hold divine authority over the opinions that are expressed on this board?

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Thank you very much, Bobd, but this is not a Gnostic site. It is a Progressive Christian site. If you don't feel comfortable asking questions about what Jesus taught and what Jesus understood to be the the Way, then perhaps you'd be more content posting on a site where others who share your spiritual understanding are gathered.

 

I respect your right to have your own opinions. However, you seem less interested in discussion about learning how to love your neighbour as yourself, and more interested in coverting TCPC readers to Gnosticism. Jesus, as he has clearly expressed elsewhere on this site, was not a Gnostic.

 

May the joys of this festive season be shared by you and your loved ones.

 

Amen.

Jen

 

Canajan, eh?

 

Thank you “Jesus”!

 

If you read scripture, you will find that Jesus is the narrator of the sayings in the Gnostic scripture called the Gospel of Thomas. He is also the chief revealer of wisdom in Pistis Sophia which is also a Gnostic scripture. The Gospel of Mary and the Gospel of John both portray Jesus as a Gnostic. The Roman bishops and their supporting credulous clerics of early Christianity, a time of great ignorance, sported their demented male egos by rejecting the Gospel of Thomas, the Gospel of Mary and other valuable Gnostic scriptures now made available by Willis Barnstone and Marvin Meyer. In addition my minister, who is a United Church of Canada minister, referred me to this site. SHE preaches by virtue of the Gnostic teachings of Jesus. Jesus is Gnostic. To say otherwise insults my minister and insults my intelligence. Your remark that Jesus was not a Gnostic is thoughtless and ill conceived.

 

Furthermore, how dare you imply that I am trying to convert TCPC readers to Gnosticism? Gnosticism has already been a part of Christianity since before evangelical Christianity!

 

In addition, your statement that I seem less interested in learning how to love your neighbour is very offensive to me. The issue of loving your neighbour is not part of the subject matter of point 1.

 

Merry Christmas my fellow Christian and Canadian!

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Am I the only one here who has a problem with the idea that one participant is claiming to hold divine authority over the opinions that are expressed on this board?

 

Lolly, you have broken my heart.

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The great failure of Western so-called civilization over the past 2,000 years has been not to strike a true balance between and among orthodox and mystical believers. Jesus is weeping whenever this division rears its ugle head in each ensuing generation.

 

flow.... :(

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The great failure of Western so-called civilization over the past 2,000 years has been not to strike a true balance between and among orthodox and mystical believers. Jesus is weeping whenever this division rears its ugle head in each ensuing generation.

 

flow.... :(

Jesus turned the tables in the temple because of his anger. I, too, become angry when I see people make remarks without careful research or thinking about what they say. Sometimes I, too, fall into that folly. For this reason I am also quick to forgive and I do hold out an olive branch as you will note on point 2. There is a difference between expressing anger and holding a grudge. I strive to never hold a grudge.

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Hmmmm...let's see who you might be talking about Mr. T with a circle on top.

 

Do I have a grudge ? You apparently think so. This was an active, caring, and informative site last year, so much so that I couldn't wait to participate every day. There were many others of us also who were of a similar opinion, until those that I have come to call "the symbolic and silent destroying lurkers in the darkness" descended upon us and slowly, but surely, stifled the open intellectual interplay that was so healthy here.

 

Many of us have done a lot of research over the years and have reached our own conclusions regarding what it means to be a Progressive Christian, and yes Gnostic influences and discussions of them were rampant here once upon a time, equivalently so also with Orthodoxy and Fundamentalism. But the majority of us were mostly "escapees" from the abuses and controls of the latter two categories.

 

No, Mr d, I have probably forgiven more in my lifetime than you might ever be able to imagine, and from what jen has said over the time I have read his posts, he has also. But one vicious comment drove him away just as surely as slaves were once driven before their "betters" with the lash.

 

As I stated in my "grudge" post (your interpretation of course) I no longer can tolerate those who would unjustly judge and control the futures of others that they really know next to nothing about. That's all I was talking about here. Sometimes it's called racism, sometimes immigration reform, sometimes elitism, sometimes greed, ..I think you get the picture.

 

And just in case you haven't noticed, that's probably the largest and most serious problem that we share here in this land of the "brave and free". Many of us alive today look back over the past decades and wonder how we got here. We got here by falling asleep and allowing deceivers and misfits to guide the futures of us all for far too long a time now, just because it was "expedient" to do so, and because we were somehow magically made to be "afraid and fearful of futures that we could not precisely control". Of course that sort of intellectual arrogance flies in the face of nature as we have also seen. Just look where that has gotten us as a people.

 

I suggest that you spend some time reading some of the postings beginning in the summer of '05, they should blow you away, but then again... maybe not someone who, IMO, judges others so unfairly.

 

flow.... :(

Edited by flowperson

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Hmmmm...let's see who you might be talking about Mr. T with a circle on top.

 

Do I have a grudge ? You apparently think so. This was an active, caring, and informative site last year, so much so that I couldn't wait to participate every day. There were many others of us also who were of a similar opinion, until those that I have come to call "the symbolic and silent destroying lurkers in the darkness" descended upon us and slowly, but surely, stifled the open intellectual interplay that was so healthy here.

 

Many of us have done a lot of research over the years and have reached our own conclusions regarding what it means to be a Progressive Christian, and yes Gnostic influences and discussions of them were rampant here once upon a time, equivalently so also with Orthodoxy and Fundamentalism. But the majority of us were mostly "escapees" from the abuses and controls of the latter two categories.

 

No, Mr d, I have probably forgiven more in my lifetime than you might ever be able to imagine, and from what jen has said over the time I have read his posts, he has also. But one vicious comment drove him away just as surely as slaves were once driven before their "betters" with the lash.

 

As I stated in my "grudge" post (your interpretation of course) I no longer can tolerate those who would unjustly judge and control the futures of others that they really know next to nothing about. That's all I was talking about here. Sometimes it's called racism, sometimes immigration reform, sometimes elitism, sometimes greed, ..I think you get the picture.

 

And just in case you haven't noticed, that's probably the largest and most serious problem that we share here in this land of the "brave and free". Many of us alive today look back over the past decades and wonder how we got here. We got here by falling asleep and allowing deceivers and misfits to guide the futures of us all for far too long a time now, just because it was "expedient" to do so, and because we were somehow magically made to be "afraid and fearful of futures that we could not precisely control". Of course that sort of intellectual arrogance flies in the face of nature as we have also seen. Just look where that has gotten us as a people.

 

I suggest that you spend some time reading some of the postings beginning in the summer of '05, they should blow you away, but then again... maybe not someone who, IMO, judges others so unfairly.

 

flow.... :(

You misunderstand what I was saying. I was not talking about your remarks, I was talking about the remarks made against me by Canajan Eh? They brought me to a point of anger which is a ligitimate feeling which Jesus himself expresses in the Gospels on occasion. Actually, I thought your remarks were well spoken and very well presented and contain very well thought out wisdom.

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Sorry for the misinterpretation and rant bobd. Sometimes we geeezers just must go off on a toot and blow off some steam, and yesterday seemed to be the day for me. As we were saying...?

 

flow.... :)

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Sorry for the misinterpretation and rant bobd. Sometimes we geeezers just must go off on a toot and blow off some steam, and yesterday seemed to be the day for me. As we were saying...?

 

flow.... :)

Flow Person

 

I am reminded of a joke going around up here in Canada about the Newfoundlander who banged his head against the wall often because it felt so good when he finshed. Anger works a bit like that. Sometimes it feels so good after we have released our tensions through anger. It is a sharp reminder that different people have different ways of thinking and we sometimes rub each other the wrong way.

 

Anger is a tool that can be used wisely or unwisely. People often become so attached to their idols that they become angry if you say something that tends to destroy their image of that idol or in some way insults their idol. A case in point is the Islamic fundamentalist belief in Mohammad and Allah. If you insult this idol, their anger will be aroused to the point where they will kill you. I would consider this a very unwise use of anger.

 

We create golden calves in our minds and we become attached to them. A case in point is Canajan Eh?'s belief in the Evangelical Jesus. I made statements that tended to destroy his image of the Evangelical Jesus and he became angry. I then shot back at him. I would like to invite him to peruse the site http://www.gnosis.org/, or read The Gnostic Bible edited by Willis Barnstone and Marvin Meyer. Perhaps it might open his mind just a litte that Jesus taught both Gnostic and Evangelical ideas.

 

BobD

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