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tariki

When Are We "saved"?

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Without wishing to enter the current discussion in any detailed way, I would just like to say that certain of the various "viewpoints" concerning the "reality" or "non-reality" of "sin" are reflected by the contrasts within the Buddhist faith between the Theravada tradition and the Mahayana. Theravada maintains a very conventional world view that anyone can relate to, whereas the Mahayana often indulges in spectacular intellectual pyrotechnics that can turn the head to jelly (well, at least this old head of mine!) While each sees "non-duality" (non-duality as that which "embraces" duality, but is NOT its opposite) as the consumation of the path, each has its methods and techniques for "attaining" its vision.

 

As an example of the Theravada mode of expression, here are the words of the Theravada Elder Nyanaponika Thera speaking of the ultimate "transcending of the opposites"......

 

"One should, however, know well and constantly bear in mind that the relinquishing of both sides, the transcending of the opposites, is the final goal - a goal which comes at the end of a long journey. Because this journey unavoidable leads through the ups and downs of samsara, the traveller will repeatedly encounter the play of opposites, within which he will have to make his choices and select his values. He must never attempt to soar above the realm of opposites while ill-equipped with feeble wings or else his fate, like that of Icarus, will be a crash landing. For a time, to the best of his knowledge and strength, he must firmly choose the side of the "higher" against the "lower", following what is beneficial from the standpoint of the Dhamma, and avoiding what is harmful. But he should regard his choices and values as a raft, not clinging to them for their own sake, always ready to leave them behind to embark on the next phase of the journey. While still on the mundane plane, he must never forget or belittle the presence within himself of the "lower", the dark side of his nature, and he must learn to deal with this wisely, with caution as well as firmness" (Excerpt from an essay "The Worn-out Skin" from "The Vision of Dhamma")

 

In a way, the same "theme" is played out in various Theravada texts, such as the exchange of words between the monk (Bhikkhu) Kassapa and the Buddha involving the existence of suffering.......

 

"Then is suffering caused by oneself?"

 

"Do not put it like that Kassapa"

 

"Then is suffering caused by another?"

 

"Do not put it like that Kassapa"

 

"Then is suffering caused both by oneself and another?"

 

"Do not put it like that Kassapa"

 

"Then is suffering neither caused by oneself or another?"

 

"Do not put it like that Kassapa"

 

"Then there is no suffering?"

 

"It is not a fact that there is no suffering: there is suffering, Kassapa"

 

"Then does Master Gotama (the Buddha) neither know nor see suffering?"

 

"It is not a fact that I neither know nor see suffering: I both know and see suffering, Kassapa"

 

This may all seem enigmatic. Yet it indicates (amongst many other things!) that perhaps we should not cling that tightly to current "viewpoints". Perhaps nothing is quite the way it seems, yet at each moment we have our own existential reality to contend with, to acknowledge.............while not seeing it as set in stone.

 

Anyway, thanks to all for the on-going debate!

 

Derek

Edited by tariki

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Derek,

 

Thank you for starting the thread. Hopefully, we all got a better understanding from the dialog. I know I did. Also enjoyed your comparison of Buddhism and the very important subject of transcending the opposites as relates to the topic.

 

Gassho,

Love in Christ,

JM

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tariki,

 

I appreciated your response, had to think about it.

 

It seems clear that feeling saved is not a static or one time decision but an ongoing journey or relationship (though perhaps for Buddhism, more a process than relationship?)

 

The beautiful way you described salvation could also be the kingdom of God (or realm of God or beloved community)--the ideal state of mind and human relationships. Small, hidden, but growing like the seed in secret, or leaven in bread.

 

As you suggest, it's not a result of anxious or compulsive striving for perfection, but acknowledging that we are broken, "poor in spirit" and need to open ourselves to God's blessing or grace. We have to keep seeking, that is the real work...because we keep falling back into the performance paradigm of the world.

 

We could say both faith and works are involved, but that the "works" are what Jesus referred to in John, "This is the work of God, that you believe in whom he hath sent." As Tillich said, the New Being occurs when we realize we are already reconciled, we only have to accept it.

Edited by rivanna

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rivanna,

 

What you have said brought to mind once more the beautiful words from the Parable of the Growing Seed from St Mark:-"for the earth bringeth forth fruits of herself". Whatever the reality that we are "already saved", within time as experienced we have to plant the seed in one sense or another, yet.......the earth brings forth fruits of herself. And when "harvest time" comes, it always comes with a deep sense of grace.

 

Your suggestion of a contrast between a Buddhist sense of "process" as opposed to a "relationship" raises many issues. As far as Pure Land is concerned, both "process" and relationship is involved. Our relationship with Amida evolves and progesses to the point where "Saviour" and "saved" become "one". (Well, this is the ideal/theory!!) The Christian mystic Meister Eckhart points to a similar consummation when he speaks of the "true poverty", that so long as we seek a place within us wherein God can act we have not found such poverty......."For God does not intend there to be a place in someone where he can act, but if there is to be true poverty of spirit, someone must be so free of God and all his works that if God wishes to act in the soul he must himself be the place in which he can act, and this he is certainly willing to be. For if God finds us this poor, then God performs his own active work and we passively receive God in ourselves and God becomes the place of his work..............."

 

I think such a consummation echoes in some ways the dropping of our various personas as we enter into true communion with others, the true communion that is "beyond words and concept". "Relationship" becomes in some sense "one", not "two".........as "non-duality" (spoken of so much in Buddhism) "embraces" duality, rather than being its opposite.

 

Anyway, whatever, we (I) must keep our (my) feet on the ground. Gratitude is one of the foundations of Pure Land life, yet a great Pure Land "saint" has exclaimed........"gratitude is all a lie, for there is nothing the matter with one." Yet for the moment, and for the forseeable future, my own heart rests in gratitude. Best not to run before we can walk!

 

:)

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tariki,

 

About the parable of the seed...we don't do the planting, the kingdom spirit (or grace, whatever term you prefer) is planted in us, and we are receptive or not depending on our nature.

 

Eckhart's position, that God does everything through us, and we do nothing at all, seems too extreme, at least for my idea of progressive Christianity. IMHO, God created us to share in his creation, to make choices, to decide the future. Perhaps the more gentle version would be Henri Nouwen saying that God dwells only where we step back to give him/her room.

 

To respond to your "walk don't run" quote--are you perhaps mixing spirituality with politics here, in your subtle Zen way? :-) If not, forgive me. I was thinking about a Boston Globe column yesterday, saying Bush refuses to pull out of Iraq because he can't stand the idea of the US losing a war. I just don't see that the only way to leave Iraq is to admit defeat. The administration could just say we went in to get rid of Saddam, we did all we could to help them set up a government--we didn't go to babysit a civil war.

 

End of rant.

 

--from the Tao te Ching, #75

 

"When the government is too intrusive,

people lose their spirit"

 

 

#61

 

"A great nation is like a great man....

when he makes a mistake, he corrects it."

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Nice quote from "The Worn Out Skin" Derek. I'm posting it on my blog. :)

 

Kay,

 

Pleased that you like it. Nyanaponika Thera's book "The Vision of Dhamma" - from which this excerpt came - was the turning point in my own allegiance to the Buddhist Faith. It inspired me to begin meditating and to take its teachings seriously as a guide for my own life.

 

Derek

:)

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tariki,

 

About the parable of the seed...we don't do the planting, the kingdom spirit (or grace, whatever term you prefer) is planted in us, and we are receptive or not depending on our nature.

 

Eckhart's position, that God does everything through us, and we do nothing at all, seems too extreme, at least for my idea of progressive Christianity. IMHO, God created us to share in his creation, to make choices, to decide the future. Perhaps the more gentle version would be Henri Nouwen saying that God dwells only where we step back to give him/her room.

 

To respond to your "walk don't run" quote--are you perhaps mixing spirituality with politics here, in your subtle Zen way? :-) If not, forgive me. I was thinking about a Boston Globe column yesterday, saying Bush refuses to pull out of Iraq because he can't stand the idea of the US losing a war. I just don't see that the only way to leave Iraq is to admit defeat. The administration could just say we went in to get rid of Saddam, we did all we could to help them set up a government--we didn't go to babysit a civil war.

 

End of rant.

 

--from the Tao te Ching, #75

 

"When the government is too intrusive,

people lose their spirit"

#61

 

"A great nation is like a great man....

when he makes a mistake, he corrects it."

 

rivanna,

 

Thanks for your post. Speaking of the "planting of the seed", I was speaking of our own sense of "self-power"...............Whatever the reality that we are "already saved", within time as experienced we have to plant the seed in one sense or another,............And that it is a necessary step on the path when we realise that "self-power" is , on reflection, the working of "Other Power". The idea that we are "receptive or not depending on our nature" seems to relate - in my mind at least - with the subject of "free will" raised on another thread. I'll leave that for now!

 

Eckhart is speaking of the final illuminative state. His words need to be put into the context given by Thomas Merton when he wrote........."The innocence and purity of heart which belong to paradise are a complete emptiness of self in which all is the work of God, the free and unpredictable expression of his love, the work of grace. In the purity of original innocence, all is done in us but without us. But before we reach that level, we must also learn to work on the other level of 'knowledge', where grace works in us but 'not without us' "

 

Hence my love of the words of Nyanaponika Thera which Kay has blogged! And the meaning of my final paragraph above, a simple disclaimer that the "final illuminative state" was unrealized within my own life, that in spite of Pure Land saints speaking of gratitude being a lie because "there is nothing wrong with one" (compare Eckharts........"They can truly enjoy the feast who would just as willingly fast") I still experience deeply the need to express gratitude within my own life. (I did not realize that I had a "subtle Zen way"!! Such would be beyond both my capacity and inclination. Perhaps you have given my lack of clarity of expression a finer gloss that it deserves.....if "finer" be the right word!!)

 

:)

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rivanna,

 

Thanks for your post. Speaking of the "planting of the seed", I was speaking of our own sense of "self-power"...............Whatever the reality that we are "already saved", within time as experienced we have to plant the seed in one sense or another,............And that it is a necessary step on the path when we realise that "self-power" is , on reflection, the working of "Other Power". The idea that we are "receptive or not depending on our nature" seems to relate - in my mind at least - with the subject of "free will" raised on another thread. I'll leave that for now!

 

Hi Derek,

 

Perhaps I also fail to understand how "within time as experienced we have to plant the seed in one sense or another". It had seemed to me that in time I was receptive to that which was shown to be there all along and could never be absent. However, I may be looking at this from an erroneous perspective but I have had no conscious sense of planting myself... Possibly a 'consent to recognize' on my part but no more. Perhaps, I have failed to put it in the context of what you imply.

 

By the way, I really enjoy your thought provoking non-threatening posts and different way of looking at the same things from other perspectives (including Pure Land). Please continue.

 

In much Love in Christ,

Joe

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Hi Derek,

 

Perhaps I also fail to understand how "within time as experienced we have to plant the seed in one sense or another". It had seemed to me that in time I was receptive to that which was shown to be there all along and could never be absent. However, I may be looking at this from an erroneous perspective but I have had no conscious sense of planting myself... Possibly a 'consent to recognize' on my part but no more. Perhaps, I have failed to put it in the context of what you imply.

 

By the way, I really enjoy your thought provoking non-threatening posts and different way of looking at the same things from other perspectives (including Pure Land). Please continue.

 

In much Love in Christ,

Joe

 

To Joe and rivanna,

 

Maybe you are both looking for "depth" in my posts that is simply not there!! All I am saying is that - as far as my own experience is concerned - I make conscious efforts to act and think in ways that would be deemed by most to be "good", or designed to make progress on my choosen path. Obviously, this in spite of all that I have said and implied concerning "being saved already". Perhaps old habits die hard?

 

Yet, as said before, "harvest time" comes always with a deep sense of grace.........apparently arriving in spite of my best efforts rather than because of them!!

 

:)

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To Joe and rivanna,

 

Maybe you are both looking for "depth" in my posts that is simply not there!! All I am saying is that - as far as my own experience is concerned - I make conscious efforts to act and think in ways that would be deemed by most to be "good", or designed to make progress on my choosen path. Obviously, this in spite of all that I have said and implied concerning "being saved already". Perhaps old habits die hard?

 

Yet, as said before, "harvest time" comes always with a deep sense of grace.........apparently arriving in spite of my best efforts rather than because of them!!

 

:)

 

Thanks Derek,

 

There is definitely "depth" in your posts to me. I do understand now your perspective and implication of 'planting the seed' in the context of your clarification by your conscious efforts to act as such. I was merely on a different wavelength concerning the words at the time I read it. :)

 

Language does have its limitations. Not that I am 'brassed off' or anything nor that I don't desire to sit down and have some 'bangers and mash' with you but I am sometimes 'confuddled' by the meaning of words and often left 'daft' as a 'nimrod' but most certain I am not a 'wof'. Just having a bit of fun here Derek :D How was my British slang?

 

Joe

Edited by JosephM

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Thanks Derek,

 

Language does have its limitations. Not that I am 'brassed off' or anything nor that I don't desire to sit down and have some 'bangers and mash' with you but I am sometimes 'confuddled' by the meaning of words and often left 'daft' as a 'nimrod' but most certain I am not a 'wof'. Just having a bit of fun here Derek :D How was my British slang?

 

Joe

 

Did you say British? :unsure:

 

:D

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tariki,

 

I don't always understand what you're saying, but like others here I find your unique combination of perspectives refreshing and helpful. It reminds me of another saying from the Tao (#64) -- "He simply reminds people of who they have always been."

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There is nothing for God to forgive. Sin is a product of the error in the belief that we are separate and in need of forgiveness. Forgiveness is then a concept that is only necessary as long as we perceive ourselves as separate. Just a view for your consideration.

 

Wow, that is quite simply stunning. Thank you :)

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Hi Tariki,

 

May I add a third understanding similiar to the second but slightly different in understanding....

 

God is "infinite love" and in him there is no such thing as sin. "Salvation" is the coming to the realization that we are already saved and complete in Him.

 

There is nothing for God to forgive. Sin is a product of the error in the belief that we are separate and in need of forgiveness. Forgiveness is then a concept that is only necessary as long as we perceive ourselves as separate. Just a view for your consideration.

 

Love in Christ,

JM

 

Jesus here.

 

Sorry Joseph, but I couldn't disagree more. Grace is not a state of faith. Grace is a state of courage -- emotional courage. Grace is the state of having the emotional courage to forgive yourself for harm you've caused others during your time on Planet Earth. Grace is the state of having the emotional courage to look God the Mother and God the Father in the eye as real people, not as idealized constructs of the mystical imagination. Grace is the state of having the emotional courage to believe that all souls are created different from one another, and that you are not a fragment of Oneness. You are unique, and as such, you must find the courage to express your uniqueness. You must find the courage to view yourself (and all others) as different but equal to God in your capacity to plumb the depths of divine courage. You must accept that you are not God, nor are you the same as God, nor are you able to do all that God the Mother and God the Father can accomplish in the quantum universe, nor are you likely to be able to do so in the forseeable future. On the other hand, God the Mother and God the Father have gifted you with an enormous heart, a heart the size of all creation. Though you haven't the skill, the knowledge, or the experience to join with God to create, say, a new star or a new galaxy, you absolutely and unquestionably have the skill, the knowledge, and the experience to tackle the tough spiritual lesson of forgiveness. If you weren't ready to learn how to forgive yourself for harming others, you wouldn't be here.

 

Your salvation as a soul was assured long before you were a twinkle in the eye of God the Mother and God the Father. It is the ancient and painful journey of these two magnificent beings (a journey which began before known time in the universe) which forges our ongoing inspiration as souls. It is the painful journey of personal sacrifice they made for each other which makes the heavens resonate with the mournful tones of the Christ archetype. It is their sacrifice for love, not mine as Jesus on the cross, which should form your inspiration. It is their example you must follow if you wish to know peace. There is nothing I brought to this world that has not been known in the quantum heavens for long and blessed ages. They are your loving parents, and your soul will not rest during your time as a human being until you come again to love them as the real people they are.

 

The wonder of divine love is that each soul is a divine snowflake, a unique and beautiful being, and so great is the love of our Mother and Father for each of us that they hold a quantum envelope around each of us precisely so we do not melt together and become One. We are The Two Plus The Many. We are a family of love. We are all brothers and sisters to each other. We all help look after each other. We need each other.

 

You are separate from God, because you're a different person from them, both as a human being, and as an angel. That's why the most important set of skills you have as an angel is your complete range of relationship skills -- your ability to listen with empathy, your ability to put yourself in somebody else's shoes, your ability to understand and appreciate somebody else's unique interests, your willingness to express who you are, your willingness to trust another person who is different from you -- someone who looks different from you, sounds different from you, who speaks a different language, who likes different music from you. Our relationship skills unite us as a family, and make us feel as if we belong.

 

Is this sounding at all familiar?

 

Love to you all. Thanks, Mother and Father, for your ongoing guidance and love. We're so grateful to you both.

 

Love Jesus

November 14, 2006

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Jesus here.

Sorry Joseph, but I couldn't disagree more.

 

(Snip)

 

Is this sounding at all familiar?

 

Love to you all. Thanks, Mother and Father, for your ongoing guidance and love. We're so grateful to you both.

 

Love Jesus

November 14, 2006

 

Greetings canajan, eh? (Jesus)

 

Agreement of course was neither requested, required or necessary. Uniqueness and expressing the idea of uniqueness promotes separateness not Oneness. Forgiveness is necessary as long as one perceives oneself as separate, perpetrator or victim. And this is indeed the place to learn forgiveness so that you might escape its illusory nature. There are those whose future desires are to create new stars or a galaxy but these are illusions of your mind also and attached to the form of ones own desires.

 

One may worship and follow 'beings' one sees as God throughout these astral planes. And who am I to forbid such play as if God were a man and woman on such a journey. As if one had to 'go' anywhere to travel as if a 'here' or a 'there' existed in reality except in ones mind. Peace is the natural estate and to seek it in a journey of the universe is as fruitless as chasing ones image in a mirror.

 

Actually, it does all sound familiar. I have been on such an illusory journey for seemingly eons of your time. Whether one awakes while in this or any other of those planes depends not on ones uniqueness but rather on the realization that all has been "a state of make-believe fiction, a state of delusion worn like a costume with multiple fabricated viewpoints, with each self-sustaining itself in a self-perpetuated state of self-ignorance, until each decides to come to closure through self-enlightenment and self-awakening. "

 

Which I might add is in God's grace and is inevitable.

Edited by JosephM

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Without wishing to enter the current discussion in any detailed way, I would just like to say that certain of the various "viewpoints" concerning the "reality" or "non-reality" of "sin" are reflected by the contrasts within the Buddhist faith between the Theravada tradition and the Mahayana. Theravada maintains a very conventional world view that anyone can relate to, whereas the Mahayana often indulges in spectacular intellectual pyrotechnics that can turn the head to jelly (well, at least this old head of mine!) While each sees "non-duality" (non-duality as that which "embraces" duality, but is NOT its opposite) as the consumation of the path, each has its methods and techniques for "attaining" its vision.

 

As an example of the Theravada mode of expression, here are the words of the Theravada Elder Nyanaponika Thera speaking of the ultimate "transcending of the opposites"......

 

"One should, however, know well and constantly bear in mind that the relinquishing of both sides, the transcending of the opposites, is the final goal - a goal which comes at the end of a long journey. Because this journey unavoidable leads through the ups and downs of samsara, the traveller will repeatedly encounter the play of opposites, within which he will have to make his choices and select his values. He must never attempt to soar above the realm of opposites while ill-equipped with feeble wings or else his fate, like that of Icarus, will be a crash landing. For a time, to the best of his knowledge and strength, he must firmly choose the side of the "higher" against the "lower", following what is beneficial from the standpoint of the Dhamma, and avoiding what is harmful. But he should regard his choices and values as a raft, not clinging to them for their own sake, always ready to leave them behind to embark on the next phase of the journey. While still on the mundane plane, he must never forget or belittle the presence within himself of the "lower", the dark side of his nature, and he must learn to deal with this wisely, with caution as well as firmness" (Excerpt from an essay "The Worn-out Skin" from "The Vision of Dhamma")

 

In a way, the same "theme" is played out in various Theravada texts, such as the exchange of words between the monk (Bhikkhu) Kassapa and the Buddha involving the existence of suffering.......

 

"Then is suffering caused by oneself?"

 

"Do not put it like that Kassapa"

 

"Then is suffering caused by another?"

 

"Do not put it like that Kassapa"

 

"Then is suffering caused both by oneself and another?"

 

"Do not put it like that Kassapa"

 

"Then is suffering neither caused by oneself or another?"

 

"Do not put it like that Kassapa"

 

"Then there is no suffering?"

 

"It is not a fact that there is no suffering: there is suffering, Kassapa"

 

"Then does Master Gotama (the Buddha) neither know nor see suffering?"

 

"It is not a fact that I neither know nor see suffering: I both know and see suffering, Kassapa"

 

This may all seem enigmatic. Yet it indicates (amongst many other things!) that perhaps we should not cling that tightly to current "viewpoints". Perhaps nothing is quite the way it seems, yet at each moment we have our own existential reality to contend with, to acknowledge.............while not seeing it as set in stone.

 

Anyway, thanks to all for the on-going debate!

 

Derek

 

Thanks for sharing this. Very wise. I'm copying and pasting it into my "NQ" (Notes & Quotes). The idea of not clinging to current viewpoints makes me think of the 14 precepts of Thich Nhat Hanh which can be found at http://seaox.com/thich.html

 

I also think of the wisdom of the TAO TE CHING when it comes to not clinging. Maybe sin is clinging! As Walter Wink said: "Satan is yesterday's will of God."

 

How I cling to so much! People here help me move on! Thanks.

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canajan,eh?,

 

Jen,

 

After re-reading the post referenced below to you, it seemed to me that I was a bit gruff. Obviously we do not share the same understanding and that is understandable. My understandings are in constant change and hopefully propogating toward a clearer understanding of truth. The views expressed were my current understanding and recollections and I do not reguire agreement but re-looking at the post I must have been disturbed to some degree at your first sentence otherwise I would not have responded as such. My appolgy to you for my error if it in any way offended you. If not, disregard my perception error to the contrary.

 

http://tcpc.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopi...amp;st=40

 

Love in Christ,

JM

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It seems to me that there are two ways of understanding "salvation" within the Christian faith. The first, that we are born "apart" from God, "children of wrath" who need at some time to come to saving faith in Christ and His work on the cross. Until such time comes, we are excluded from the book of life. God is actively seeking to "lead us to Christ" yet we may well choose not to accept, in which case we shall be eternally excluded from His Kingdom

 

The second is that God is "infinite love" and has already forgiven all sin. "Salvation" is coming to the realization that we are already "saved".

 

For many Christians today salvation from the ego will come from knowledge and for some the source of inspiration will be charity. Salvation from ego separation does not elevate knowing above loving or vice a versa because they are both good and lead to the same place. The many paths will vary, but they all lead to unity and love of all. Each Christian with Christ as his savior will have to carry out honest experiments with sincerity in his/her own individual mental laboratory to find the genuine process the mind can use to discover his/her salvation. Our own experience will kindle the light of spirituality and with this light we will see the Christ Consciousness and our individual path to God.

 

Infinite Love awaits our interest, our scrutiny, and at first a hesitant investigation because it is in the here and now, has always been here and is present for the taking. By controlling our mind and balancing our physical life, we realize the ultimate in love and pure thought to achieve Christ consciousness. Jesus is a role model to be holy, to live a freely flowing and flourishing life because Christ is whole; there is no blemish, disease or death in his consciousness. Christ consciousness supports our health and salvation so to achieve it is healing for our body, mind and soul because just striving after it makes health and wholeness. The more we seek the perfection that makes men and women like Jesus, the better we are as people. The more whole we get the more holy we get as we become healthy in body, mind and soul, for holiness is health.

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