JosephM

Hi Adi and all, I have included an official TCPC.org statement on the eight points by Bob Ryder, a former executive council member. As you may note the 8 points were written to avoid a dogmatic and literalistic understanding. In my opinion, when they are all taken together as a whole, Point 4 in general becomes clearer as any orientation that is not a 'matter of consent' would in my view, violate a general principle of other points. I would think there are probably rapists and other categories that presently exist in present day churches that the people are unaware of. But it seems to me, that once such behavior is exposed and deemed harmful or at risk to others, whether PC or otherwise, proper action will be taken to protect others. I do not personally believe that we need to break down point 4 into a more legal or dogmatic understanding in light of TCPC stated intentions and the 8 points as a whole. Where PC goes from here is in my view, any-body's guess. Fred Plumer, TCPC President calls this a "progressive experiment" in an article which can be found here. As far as the original question goes that Bill posed and specifically mentioned in Post 1 being 1. Pedophiliacs? 2. Rapists? 3. Those who commit incest? 4. Sadomasicists? I think it is presently generally accepted that those Bill mentioned above, if believed to endanger others by taking the 8 points as a whole, would not be welcomed in PC community. What the future will bring in change concerning that point is something that to me is best left, at least to me, to the future. Joseph

Sorry if I have offended you Bill, I haven't decided anything. I was just expressing my opinion as you can see if you will look at the entire sentence you took it from in post 5 here. And I stand by my statement of appreciation for you bringing up the issue not only for yourself but for the benefit of others who might have that in the back of their mind. Love in Christ, Joseph

Janet, I think you make a good point that Jesus, from what we have read in the Bible, would have talked to anyone that was truely interested in the things of God. I think that says much. If they were interested in hearing and discussing such issues and questions which are raised here it would seem to me good and who are we to withhold what we are freely given. Of course, continued fellowship with one who is not interested in love and respect for other humans would not be wise and i doubt that one who does harm to others would remain interested for long in such conversation as we have unless he/she had the desire to change. Besides, if their posts were of a lack of respect for others or hurtful or offensive nature, they would be appropriately excluded here as i would think they would also be excluded in other progressive church meetings. Perhaps each case is different and needs to be considered as it arises. I think Mike also makes a good point with black-and-white viewpoints. "There is definitely more to life than what exists at either extreme". It seems to me enough to deal with one day at a time. Bill, thanks for raising the question for consideration as I think it might have been in the back of the mind of others also. Joseph

Bill, I think point 5 says a lot as regards to point 4 and to bre truthful I think it is good not to over-define principles. You ask.... "So what is to prevent PC's from "progressing" to where these other forms of sexual expression won't simply be seen and accepted as an "alternate lifestyle"?" It seems to me that nothing prevents such a thing though it seems highly unlikely. All things seem to me to be subject to change. However, personally, i don't believe hypothetical questions such as this need to be addressed by Progressive Christianity at this time, nor does it , in my view, have a basis in current reality. While it may be interesting to discuss or think about, in my view only, i see no meaningful purpose for PC to be concerned with this until and unless it becomes an issue to do so. Just my opinion, Joseph

Bill, In my view, I think all the points have to be considered as a whole. Obviously, if someone was currently practicing a sexual orintation that expressed behavior that did harm to others or was in principle in direct oppossition to the other 7 points, the answer would be no. Fellowship would definitely not be of mutual benefit. Joseph

You can find some really progressive music here. from the TCPC.org site and by possibly googling on that artist for other albums. Joseph

Tariki, As always you raise thoughtful points. For how can we escape our thoughts when 'the lives of some around us who suffer beyond our capacity to even understand' when we are having "A GOOD INNING", as you say, when we all agree that God is Love? That is a thought that I would think has plagued many of us at some time. It would seem to me that this was the stimulus that created a myriad of myths concerning the afterlife that is still entertained by religions today. Perhaps the real answer to these thoughts is found not in concepts or myths but grasped in a deeper understanding of Love, that polar opposites are indeed merely degrees on a continuum and in the acceptance of the temporal and ephemeral nature of life in this linear domain where 'this to will pass'. Or perhaps one may bypass all this intellectual stuff by identification through either self-enquiry or the practice of unconditional love to realize ones true nature. I share your Buddhist embrace of "duality" and "non-duality" not being seen as opposites. To me, there can be no separation where unity exists and reality is indeed complete and without parts as is. As to whether there is "room in eternity for differentiation not just a total absorption", it seems to me that whatever state it is, will be agreeable to all. Love, Joseph

I think Bill makes a good point, It seems to me that if one lives mostly in the future or by future promises one will essentially die to the present. One will not recognize that which is 'at hand' now. It also seems to me that the good news Jesus proclaimed was also 'at hand' and not in the distant future except to those who placed their faith in the passed down beliefs of others of things they knew little about. In other words, though interesting, the aftelife, perhaps may be distracting to the present. Now, having said that, I am of the persuasion that there is only Life eternal and therefore how could there really be anything after? It is always Now. Reincarnation is an interesting topic and in my view supported in part by both Jewish history and the NT but without personal subjective experience, it is just hearsay. Just a view to consider, Joseph

The current E-bulletin for September 2009 containing articles of interest to Progressives and others can be found here Joseph

Jake, I missed your presence. Yes, it is a most difficult time for most and at the same time a most natural event. It seems good to me that you were able to be with him. I also lost both my Mom and Step-Dad over the past 2 years. My Mom with Alzheimer's and Leukemia was a long time of both sorrow and growth for all in the family. My Step-Dad died more suddenly in my arms and I was also present at the moment of my mothers last breath. The experience can be very transformative for those left behind and I am looking forward to hearing your experiences through this trying time. Love in Christ, Joseph

Hi Bill, It seems appropriate in this area as long as we are just expressing our view. I would ditto all your life affirming points. Mathew Chapter 7 found an approach for me. Some of the teachings you have listed as don't help such as "hate your father and mother" to me, is just a poor translation and is found only in Luke 14:26, (only 1 of 4 gospels) but seems not worth disputing because an argument on whether the Greek word was used to mean prefer less than rather than hate may be obvious to me from study but not to others. Most of the others you mentioned can be taken in a different context and a couple of the others you mention have not been revealed to me and could be in error. Personally, if they speak to me that is fine and if not, I am not offended and just let them pass. I don't see that for myself as cherry picking just because they speak or don't speak to me (I have no control over this) because some I have read and let pass and then 10 years later received the understanding. Kind of like judging nothing before its time. Are there errors? I believe so but it really doesn't matter to me because the teachings that did speak were only used as an approach that for me were successful for a more direct connection. Just my take on your questions on Point 1 Joseph

Hi Adi, Any short articles you write that you feel would be of interest to progressives could be pasted under the General Resources section as long as you have copyright authority. Anything really long that may be of interest and related to the TCPC community can have a short description and a link placed in the Link section. Books that are progressive in nature that can be read on line can be linked there with a short description also or submitted for interest in reviewing and commenting in the Book Discussion area much as you see in that section now. Hope that answers your question, if not feel free to PM me . JosephM ( as TCPC Moderator/Admin)

Testing for database errors Joseph

Heading to WPB Florida in the morning for a couple weeks R&R along with some personal business. Will still be online and available through PM's and use of a laptop computer. Joseph

Bright and sunny day in Kentucky with cool temperature of 63 to warm up to the low 70's. Very cool for this time of year. Spending the day 'piddling' around the house, relaxing, some reading and checking in on board a few times for the day. Took a motorcycle ride with the wife and another couple for a cod fish dinner to Cracker Barrel yesterday evening. Weather was refreshing and the fish was outstanding. Hoping your day is filled with love. Joseph

I will agree with you Dutch, And when he shall appear, you shall be like him. Wife fixing a pork loin smothered in dill weed/seed and Rosemary with potatoes. Waiting on kids and grandchildren to share such a meal and perhaps my favorite pie... Lemon supreme. Officially of retirement age today. If your under 62 keep those SS wages coming in... Have a great day, Joesph

What a coincidence, Tomorrow, I'll be 62. Seems just like yesterday I was a toddler. Life is good even if I don't make it to tomorrow. Today I did the grass and edging, some misc around the home and took my wife of 4o years out with some friends to dinner at Fridays. Next week I'll have to do better as it will be 41 years. I think I'll keep her. Joseph

Don't have a post for today? Check in and leave your thought for the day or let others know what you are doing. A great suggestion by Dutch. Joseph

Just what is considered inappropriate or an uncompassionate Post on this site? It is of course, fine in your post to state your view as an opinion, position, interpretation, perspective, understanding, belief or reference a writing etc regardless if it differs from others. You can even say you agree with or disagree with another though that is not necessary as your point or post will probably speak for you. Having said that, additional comments inserted such as those below add nothing to the dialog except to provoke, demean, and separate us and make it 'personal' even if it is prefaced by "in my opinion" or IMO. Here are some examples that have been used here. If you believe otherwise you just haven't really studied enough. In my opinion, you don't know what you are talking about. I have a PH in theology and you are just plain wrong. Your statement has no validity in it. Interpreting it that way is stupid. Believing as you do shows a lack of intelligence. Your position IMO shows a laziness on your part. In my opinion you are not a Christian as you suppose. Your remarks show you have done very little study. Your view shows a lack of understanding. Your view is nonsense. You are wrong or your advice is not helpful to others. Your belief is foolish and .... Any direct inference that gets personal by implying non agreement with the view expressed makes one less than acceptable; The things these 'type' of statements all have in common is that they add nothing to the dialog in the way of explaining your view, trying to understand the other or edifying the other. Others can form their own opinions based on the differing post. These things do not need to be said. They appear to me as somewhat rude or at the least, uncompassionate remarks of a personal nature against the one with a differing view that can be offensive or demean another and provoke further exchange of remarks that do nothing to stimulate insightful thought or cause one to consider a different perspective. They seem to add little to community. If one takes pleasure in saying these things then perhaps there are more convenient sites than TCPC for that type of dialog. Compassionate is a word used frequently here. TCPC as an organization believes in principle behavior is the fullest expression of what we believe. (Point 5) The dictionary uses some other words that a have similar meaning to compassion being ... sympathetic, kindly, understanding, tender, charitable, benevolent, lenient, kind -hearted, tender-hearted, merciful and such other behavior. Therefor, it would seem good to me that when we write posts, we consider if we have written it in a compassionate way to others who might have a differing view than ours. Perhaps many of us (I included) at times may come short of this definition in our posts, which to me, is understandable. Yet it seems to me a good goal to work toward when discussing such things as religion, spirituality and the like which are sometimes difficult in that the subject matter often triggers such emotional responses. It seems to me good to have such a site which places such emphasis on compassion over what one deems 'correct belief'. JosephM (as Moderator/Admin/Site Owner)

To All, I think it would be fair to say here, that TCPC supports the journey of all who come here, and at the same time, leaves the transformation process of ones journey in the hands of God, Absolute Reality, our source, All that Is, no Name or whatever name a member here would apply. Agreement or disagreement is never required of one. No one has to become like one of us to be acceptable. If someones post speaks to you, that is good. If not, that is also good. Perhaps you have something to add that will speak to others or that they can consider. Yet in all cases, behavior speaks louder than words. I repeat, we are not here to convert people, or require them to agree with a posted view regardless of any credentials one might have. Our mission is primarily one of outreach and support (full mission can be read here) Lets be supportive of others right to decide for themselves what they shall believe while demonstrating by our behavior and respect that love for one another is always a top priority. Views as long as they are respectful of others will never get you warnings, suspensions, or banned from this site as long as I am Administrator and have agreement by those who service I am under as a team member. On the other hand, insults, personal demeaning remarks, name calling, putting down others with differing views as somehow less intelligent, promoting private agendas, using this site primarily for advertising and in general being disrespectful of others will bring on these things. Everyone can make a mistake but, please try to recognize any you may make and apologize while it is yet day so I need not get involved. I realize other sites may be more tolerant of behavior than we are here. However, I am not trying to be other sites. Many here have written and indicated they are in support of our moderation and some even thank us for bringing things to their attention. Some are not happy with me or the moderation here and have not been afraid to say so. I accept their right to be as such. Actions may not always be in line with what some may believe is 'right'. I accept that as their legitimate view and to me, they are welcome here as much as I am. Yet it is important to remember I have a responsibility to fulfill and must be guided by our mission and 8 points of TCPC as i am led. Please try to work with me to keep discipline to a minimum and try not to take it too personal if you are cautioned in any of your posts. There is always growth possible for all of us where choices are presented. JosephM ( as Moderator/Admin)

Text, images and articles that are not the property of the poster should not be posted on the forum without the consent of the owner. If a complaint regarding copyright is received by TCPC, its owners, moderators or administrators, the poster will be held solely responsible for the infringing materials and the posts will be removed. TCPC cooperates with authorities on copyright matters. It is your responsibility as a user of this Message board to assure your own understanding of copyrighted rules and laws which often differs from country to country. When you signed up to to register it was required to check a box that you agreed to the forum rules which included to be responsible for your own posts. For an article on "Are you breaking the Laws on an Internet Forum?", and for information on US Copyright Law and fair Use , check here..... http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/9...use.html?cat=17 Joseph

THIS IS OUR MISSION AND PUBLIC STATEMENT ABOUT US. Note point 4 that ALL are welcome including Agnostics and those of different orientations. Also note that point 5 is more concerned with how we behave toward one another than what we say we believe. Please at all times be courteous to other members and treat them as you would expect to be treated with respect and sensitivity to differing beliefs. The mission of The Center for Progressive Christianity is: » To reach out to those for whom organized religion has proved ineffectual, irrelevant, or repressive, as well as to those who have given up on or are unacquainted with it. » To uphold evangelism as an agent of justice and peace. » To give a strong voice both in the churches and the public arena to the advocates of progressive Christianity . » To support those who embrace the search, not certainty. About Us: The 8 Points By calling ourselves progressive, we mean we are Christians who... 1. Have found an approach to God through the life and teachings of Jesus. 2. Recognize the faithfulness of other people who have other names for the way to God's realm, and acknowledge that their ways are true for them, as our ways are true for us. 3. Understand the sharing of bread and wine in Jesus's name to be a representation of an ancient vision of God's feast for all peoples. 4. Invite all people to participate in our community and worship life without insisting that they become like us in order to be acceptable (including but not limited to): believers and agnostics, conventional Christians and questioning skeptics, women and men, those of all sexual orientations and gender identities, those of all races and cultures, those of all classes and abilities, those who hope for a better world and those who have lost hope 5. Know that the way we behave toward one another and toward other people is the fullest expression of what we believe. 6. Find more grace in the search for understanding than we do in dogmatic certainty - more value in questioning than in absolutes. 7. Form ourselves into communities dedicated to equipping one another for the work we feel called to do: striving for peace and justice among all people, protecting and restoring the integrity of all God's creation, and bringing hope to those Jesus called the least of his sisters and brothers. 8. Recognize that being followers of Jesus is costly, and entails selfless love, conscientious resistance to evil, and renunciation of privilege.

Expired event post

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Thanks for sharing Soma.