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Carl

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Everything posted by Carl

  1. There are many theological conservatives who are political moderates or liberals, the first example I think of is Jimmy Carter. So naturally, one may be a theological liberal, and a political moderate or conservative and still be taken seriously. After all - we are all on our own journeys in this life. Lables are so limiting sometimes... I highly recomend the book "Irresistable Revolution" by Shawn Claiborne Shawn is a theological conservative and teaches a new political/economic system based on Biblical Christianity. It is a very interesting book.
  2. James - I did not say that gender discrimination was "OK", I said that the texts needed to be understood in their cultural contexts. Humanity is in the process of growing. Norms and values are changing as we grow. What used to be unacceptable is now acceptable, because we have evolved, grown and progressed. People are much more enlightened today, than they were 1500 years ago. Recognizing that the Bible contains many instances of bias or descrimination is NOT to say that discrimiation was/is a good thing. It is to say however, that it was a reality because at that point (during the life of St. Paul for example) largely because humanity had not progressed far enough to recognize the reality of gender equality. That is a part of reality. Think of it as looking at a map of the world from the 1700s.....It may be the best map that a cartographer of that era was capeable of drawing... but today, we have progressed more, and can draw better maps. That doesn't mean that we are offended by the old map, rather it means that we respect it for what it was, and we continue to progress. I use the Scriptures, together with Tradition, Reason and Experience to discern how God would have me live. Reason and Experience are filters which help remove some of the cultural bias of the text from the formation of modern dogma. You also say this: I would say that God calls people BY equiping them. We have different understandings of what it means to be "called by God", therefore we will not be able to come to an agreement about WHO is called.
  3. I am not offended by that text at all. I recognize it for what it is, a piece of writing from a given person, to a given audience in a given culture, at a given time. Just because St. Paul says those things - does not mean that they are necesairly to be followed to the letter today. I am not offended by this text because I understand and view it through its historical and cultural context. I would be offended if a person used these texts to justify gender discrimination today. Also - As pointed out above - I don't feel that woman are MORE qualified to lead a church than a man is. I feel both genders are EQUALLY qualified to follow the call of God in their lives, including calls to ministerial leadership. As noted above, St. Paul did commend many woman church leaders of his day. Also, many scholars understand St. Paul's words quoted above to be a specific instruction to a particular church that was having problems with women disrupting their worship services - not as a prohibition on their work in ministry. So even many people that do feel the need to take all of Paul's comments literally today have accepted woman in pastoral leadership with that Biblical justification.
  4. Welcome Ted - CTS is my favorite seminary here in the Hoosier State - hope you enjoyed ur time there. Welcome to the board! Carl
  5. The terms "liberal" and "conservative" are both very subjective. Today's conservative was yesterday's liberal - as the issues and ways of thinking change. Also a liberal in one denomination will be considered a conservative in another. While most people today would identify me as both a theological and a political liberal, an identity that I do fully embrace, I prefer to self identify as a progressive for two main reasons: 1. I think that the term "Progressive Christian" communicates the idea that I view the realm of God as a developing process that is always growing and expanding, instead of an unchanging institution that should be the same forever. My attraction to Process Theology is affirmed by the term "Progressive" as there is a process to progression. Although, one certainly does not need to embrace Process Thought to be a Progressive Christian. 2. The term "progressiveā€ has less political connotation than the term "liberal". When people hear the word "liberal" their minds fill with images, some good - some bad - some accurate - some inaccurate. When I say "progressive" people keep more of an open mind about what I have to say, thus I am able to communicate with fewer barriers, which is generally a very good thing.
  6. Hello Flow (from both Atticus and I ) I understand the points you are making. They are very valid. I never meant to question your acceptance/view of GLBT persons, I am aware from other interactions with you on this board, that you and I are on the same page there. I'm sorry if my responce didn't make that clear enough. This is an issue that is very, very personal to me, and because of my personal realities, I may be overly sensitive about it. Sometimes my hyper sensitivity on this issue (the result of many negative experiences with religious structures/leaders on this topic) leads me to be more guarded about anything that looks potentially damaging, than may be necessairy at times. Thank you very much for taking the time to write your second post clairifying the points you were making. If I had one wish it would be that the Church would stop fighting with oneanother and just focus on showing the love of Jesus. - I'm sure that is a concept that we can all agree on !
  7. I'm a little uncomfortable with that analogy. Comparing homosexual orientation to alcoholism, macular degeneration, or diabetes susceptibility seems to imply that homosexual orientation is akin to an inherent problem in life that some people suffer from. While I do think that science is teaching us that some of us are "naturally" homosexual, it seems that a better way to understand these lessons is to embrace a person's sexual orientation as a part of God's design for that person in creation. I do not believe that homosexuality should be viewed as an affliction, but rather embraced as a part of a person's divinely created identity. Just as God has made some of us male and some of us female, some of us with light skin and some of us with dark skin, some of us tall and some of us short, God also made some of us to be attracted to people of the same gender, some of us to be attracted to people of the other gender, and some of us to be attracted to persons of both genders. I believe that all parts of our identity bring glory to God when used to their natural potential for life affirming goodness. Using analogies of genetic illnesses when talking about sexual orientation reminds me of the days when homosexuality was a diagnosable mental illness. Today, psychiatry is much more enlightened. And so, we as people of faith should be as well. I don't think that the post I origionally quoted was intended to be anything but supportive toward our LGBT sisters and brothers, but I felt compelled to make the above point in all respect and love
  8. I just finished reading Carter's book "Our Endangered Values" - in it he does a great job of describing that denomination's move to the right, both theologically and to a much greater degree politically. An above post says that Carter has a "progressive world view" - - - - after reading the book, it is very clear that he is theologically quite conservative, although politically a moderate. It is true though, that Carter may have a more progressive theological view that an extreemist like say, Pat Robertson.... but that is hardly a bench mark! A great point Carter makes in that book is that one can theologically be a conservative, while at the same time be moderate or even liberal in one's political views.
  9. I am looking for a good book that discusses/describes the Moral Influence View of the Atonement. Ideally, I would like to find one that addresses Abelard's ideas and then expands on them with newer scholarship, and applies these ideas to contemporary Christian life. So far, I have not been able to find a book that does this. If you know of one, please e-mail me at carlandatticus@yahoo.com as I don't get to check this board as often as I like. Thanks so very much! Carl
  10. I am an ENFJ This test also says I'm a slight extrovert - my Meyer's Briggs test said the same thing when I took it a few years back. Personally, I'm not sure if im an extrovert or an introvert, so I guess that is accurate. I think I am a pretty middle of the road type guy on every one of these points. You are: slightly expressed extrovert moderately expressed intuitive personality slightly expressed feeling personality moderately expressed judging personality
  11. Great News!! The Heartworm treatments are over! Atticus is now on his monthly preventative pill. He will have a test in 6 months to make sure that he is clean, but the Vet thinks he is fine. Exercize restriction is done - so now we can walk again! Thanks to everyone who prayed and thought about Atticus.
  12. I can't begin to address the thoughts presented in your post in detail. Here are few things to clarify however. . . 1. Most of the apocolyptic liturature in our Bible is influenced heavily by the non-cannonical book of Enoch. This explains many of the rather "odd" descriptions of the end of time events that appear throughout our Bible today. 2. Christians began to worship on the First Day of the week - as early as the period recorded in the New Testament because that is the "Lord's Day" - the day that tradition tells us Christ rose from the grave. As Christianity evolved beyond the Jewish community - this practice was one of the several that helped seperate it from its parent Judiasm. It has nothing to do with worshiping the "sun". 3. Jan 6 is the day of Epiphany. The Church historically celebrated the Incarnation on Epiphany. Christ's mass was a day generally set apart to celebrate the entire reality of Christ - not only his birth (incarnation). This tradition changed as Western society began to celebrte Christmas strongly - frankly in large part due to the writings of Charles Dickens. As Christmas celebrations evolved to focus more and more on Christ's BIRTH - It seemed very redundant to celebrate the Incarnation only a few days later. So, a new tradition was born - that of celebrating the visit of the Magi on Epiphany. When the Church was setting the day for Christ's mass - they were influenced by the pagan ceremonies that were on the calander around the time of December 25. They were seeking ways to make conversion to Christianity as practical as possible for the natives of Europe. 4. While I personally had a hard time figuring out what the Statue of Liberty has to do with the rest of your post - you are correct that the Statue of Liberty is based on the figure of a light bearer. This symbol is frequently used in Freemasonry to represent illumination, understanding and growth. I am certain that the symbolism of "light" is common in many faith traditons.
  13. Willow Creek's decision doesn't surprise me. I try not to be judgemental of other people's worship choices. But, I really struggle with the whole Willow Creek concept. I have attended their church, and a couple like it. When I saw the Star-bucks and Mc Donalds in the narthax, and saw the person sitting next to me eating their sausage biscuit during the service - I could only think of one thing - Christ driving the money changers from the temple. So - I am biased against Willow Creek and the Mega Churches to begin with. But - I don't get churches that close on Christ's MASS. I mean the whole holy day is about Christ's mass. So - to NOT worship BECAUSE it is the day of Christ's Worship just floors me. I understand the idea of family time, etc. . . But shouldn't divine worship be the primary part of family time on Christmas? And, certainly there is enough time in the rest of the day for the other things. Sorry for the personal rant - but it is one of those things that bother me. FWIW - Our church cut out Sunday School that day - inspite of my comments.
  14. Atticus is doing allright I think. The vet decided to give him the immiticide over the course of three treatments. He said that is the safest method. Atticus had a difficult time with the first one. As the heartworms go into the lungs, sometimes the dog has a hard time breathing. Atticus had a bad time with that with the first shot. The vet said that it was a very good thing he decided to use the 3 course treatment. He thinks that since Atticus did have that problem, that had he tried to treat it with only one or two shots, it may have been too much of a shock for Atticus to take. But as it worked out, he did fine. He has had all 3 of his shots now, and must still be on restricted activities for another week or two. After that, we go back to the vet - and hopefully he gets a clean bill of health The vet also found ear infections, so I am treating him for that. The vet said that Atticus may have some hearing loss from them. That is ironic, because my hearing loss came from bad ear infections as well. So, a few months and $1,200.00 later - things are looking pretty good for Methodist Golden Retrievers in Northern Indiana. Thanks for asking!
  15. Got this Fruit Cake Recipe in the E-mail. I think EVERYONE will like this fruit cake. - Be sure to follow the instructions. Christmas Fruit Cake 1 cup butter 2 cups sugar 6 large eggs 2 teaspoons baking powder 3 cups flour, sifted 1/2 t. salt 1 cup bourbon 1 pound pecans, chopped 3 cups white raisins (or use candied fruit) 1 t. nutmeg AND ~ a very large bottle of bourbon whiskey ~ First, sample the whiskey to check for quality. Assemble all of the ingredients. Check the whiskey again. To be sure it is of the highest quality, pour one level cup and drink. Repeat this step. Turn on the electric mixer and beat one cup of butter in a large fluffy bowl. Add one teaspoon of sugar and cream until beat. Make sure the whiskey is still okay... try another cup. Turn off the mixer. Beat six leggs and add to the bowl, then chunk in the cup of dried flut. Mix on the tuner. Throw in two quarts of flour. Gradually pour in the cow. Add 2 dried anything. If the fried druit gets struck in the beaters, pry it loose with a drewscriver. Sample the whiskey and check it again for tonsistency. Next, sift two cups of salt. Or something. Who cares??? Check the whiskey again. Now sift the nutmeg and strain your nuts. Add one table. And the spoon. Of whiskee. Or something. Whatever you find left. Grease the oven. Turn the crake pan to 350 degrees. Don't forget to beat off the turner. Pour the oven into the batter. Throw the bowl out the window. Lick the batter off the floor. Bake 300 minutes at 50 degrees. Finish the blobble of whishy and flow to bed.
  16. Wow - this thread is cool. I am responding to the question about very involved hobbies. I am a very active Amateur Radio Operator. I mainly use Morse Code, but sometimes use voice as well. I have made radio contact with every continant, every US State and Canadian Province, and many countries. I have built radios and especially like to operate older radios that were designed with Vacume Tubes. I have set aside a room in my house as my Radio Room. I have 6 Trancievers, 3 Receivers and 4 transmitters in operation at present. I have been a HAM since I was 14. I have taught classes on Amateur Radio, and am currently under contract with IVY TECH state college to teach again this spring. My Question: What sorts of Clubs, Lodges, Organizations do you belong to ?
  17. My feelings about legal abortion are fairly utilitarian. While in an ideal world - I believe that abortion would not take place. However, the reality is that they always have and always will. So for me the question has never been one of allowing or disallowing abortion. To me the question has always been whether they will be performed by hack "doctors" or even God forbid, worse. - Or, will they will be performed as safely and cleanly as possible by trained and qualified medical professionals. I really do see it as the lesser of two evils I guess. I vote for keeping it legal and well regulated (ie: Medical Doctors, Nurses, Clinics, Hospitals, etc). I use this same logic when I oppose Gun Bans. Since it is impossible to collect all guns, criminals will always have them. Therefore we must regulate their sale and permit their carry by trained law abiding citizens only. In an ideal world - I would remove every single one of them. But - cest la vie.
  18. I believe that either He or She is equally appropriate. I use both. In personal prayer, I feel any term that the pray-er is comfortable with is appropriate. In public prayer however, I think that care should be taken to use inclusive language as much as possible. Perhaps the most ideal method is that of my Bishop. He never uses a pronoun when referring to God. He says things like "May God's Blessing Be Upon God's Church" or "God Calls God's Church...." etc. That method is a little awkward gramatically, but the awkwardness points out the reality that our language is insufficient to describe the Divine.
  19. I LOVE fruitcake. Making Fruitcake is one of my holiday traditions.
  20. If you think you are in danger of falling under evenagelical theocratic rule, why not be a candidate? Unless of course there is some law where you live which would forbid it, in which case, you need a lawyer. If on ther other hand, there is no oopsition because they always get trounced/have no support among the populus, that's called deomcracy, where the candidate that the most people like wins. If you don't like it, I don't think there is much you can do. James - You seem to miss the point here. Your statement "If on ther other hand, there is no oopsition because they always get trounced/have no support among the populus, that's called deomcracy, where the candidate that the most people like wins. If you don't like it, I don't think there is much you can do." seems to say that the majority has the right to vote away the rights of the minority. Slavery was supported by majority vote, and Hitler was very popular in Germany. Using your logic - there just isn't much that can be done - since we must respect the right of the majority to choose their own leaders and make their own laws. In our country - our courts, our constitution, our entire system is designed to protect the rights of the minority from abuse by the majority. The fears I described earlier - are due to the failure of this system to protect religious minorities in my area. The example you quoted from my post was an illustration of just how overwhelmingly conservative this area is. So much so, that the rights of minorities are often violated. Also - you use the term "murder" to refer to legal abortion in your post. I will remind you that state law defines what is or is not murder in a given state - and that in the United States - abortion is a medical procedure - and not "murder." You may freely state that you would like to see our laws changed to criminalize this medical procedure, however calling the procedure "murder" is, at this time at least, inaccurate. I think it is beneficial to good spirited debate if we don't use buzz-words or politically charged language when describing something like abortion.
  21. A friend of mine is a Gnostic Bishop here in Indiana. If you ever want to discuss these issues with a very smart fellow, get me your e-mail address and I will ask him to contact you.
  22. President Bush was raised as an Episcipalian but converted to United Methodism after his "Conversion Experience". The United Methodist Church is a very inclusive denomination - we have people from all political and theological backgrounds. Hillary Clinton is also a United Methodist.
  23. David - With all respect - perhaps we see this issue differently due to the differences in our local cultures. Where I live - Candidates for all offices are expected ,by the voters, to have an endorsement from their pastor and church. State Reps make it very clear that they are Evangelical Christians by putting the little Christian Fish symbol on their campaing signs. They are usually all Republicans - We normaly have no local democratic candidates - so all elections are determined in the Republican primary. If you are a registered democrat - you can't vote for anyone. You get a ballot that has blanks on all local elections - since there are no democratic candidates. Our state legislature is presently defending their position of having overwhelmingly Christian prayers to open each meeting in court. If a candidate is not a Christian - he wouldn't stand a chance - honestly. Many Sherriff deputies have little cross pins on their uniforms to show their religious identity. Many public school events (concerts, ball games, etc) begin with a Christian prayer. The highschool's Christmas concert involves the annual speech from the band director about "how glad he is to be in a community that still honors Jesus Christ." The speech brings a standing ovation. When a neighboring school district built a new building - they invited a church to come in and annoint each room with oil. Having moved here from a more urban environment - I do realize how powerful the religious right is in this community, and in many communities like it around the country. Naturally, there are also liberal strongholds around the country. Much of our perspective is influenced by our local environments. From here - it sure looks like the religious right are making our nation into a conservative Christian one.
  24. I feel threatened because they are trying to turn the USA into a theocracy. I have no trouble with what they believe as long as they only apply it to themselves. But when they want to control a woman's uterus, or who marries whom, or who gets to adopt children, or whether or not science is taught in public schools, or insist that we have a president who is pastor-in-chief.. I have big problems with that. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Agreed Greenparty.
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