October's Autumn

Yes, thanks for sharing!

I have attempted it. I suspect I'm not a good candidate for being a vegetarian. I'm allergic to dairy (in some forms) and egg which knocks out a lot of sources of proteins that are often used to replace meats. I do eat several vegetarian meals a week, though.

I think different writers had different agendas. I don't know if that really answers your question, though. There is a lot I don't know. If you are open (as you are in the mission statement you came up with) you are by definition liberal/progressive. Be careful. There are those who will try and come in and "fix" those who don't have an orthodox view point. I look at it like this. There are plenty of conservative churches out there. If one wants a conservative creed/doctrine they have plenty to choose from! There are very few truly liberal/progressive churches so let those of us w/o orthodox view points have our space, it is small as it is!

Because they aren't true.

You might want to post this is another section where there is more traffic! Not the debate one, but the one above that!

I deleted the ones that didn't apply to me. I did add a note to one of them!

Don't decieve yourself, davidk. All churches are based on human standards, not God's. The closest I've seen to a church based on God's standards is the UCC church I attend. And even they are off sometimes...

Where is Des?

Not one where anyone would be punished forever... Life has happened. Over the course of the last 38 years I have lived life and, to quote Paul, When I was a child I thought like a child but when I became an adult I learned to think like an adult. Sorry for being so ambiguous but it is hard to be any more specific than that. It is a different kind of effort.

No, you believe people send themselves to hell... nice god you believe in... The answers are not important. It is your world view that matters. You showed that quite clearly in several of the threads you've posted it. If you had been where I was you would never have been so foolish as to go to where you are now. You misunderstand what "open minds, inclusive, & pluralistic" means. I have no desire to go over old territory with someone who does not have an open mind, is not inclusive, and is not pluralistic. When you get to where we are then we may be able to have an intelligent discussion. It takes a great deal of effort to stay where you are because you must compartmentalize and live in constant denial. Challenging, yes, but not in a good way. Comfortable because you don't have to think or work.

I appear to have hit a sore spot. Don't fancy yourself a prophet, don't take biblical passages out of context. It is you who has eyes but does not see and ears but does not hear. Come back when you are willing to risk something outside of your comfortable life.

Interesting god you believe in... One who sends most of his creation to suffer for eternity... I don't like your god nor do I believe in your god... he reminds me of Zeus.

Often that is true that we reap what we sow. But not always. My class is a good example. I was proud of them today when they were the best behaved group in the last day of school assembly. It didn't last past the assembly but that is another story. New teachers often end up with difficult classes because teachers will change grade levels or tracks to avoid them thus leaving the vacancy open for a newbie. It isn't a reaping and sowing it is just the reality of life.

Well, the reality of life is we can only control certain things. One of my favorite sayings is "Life is what happens when you are making plans." Conservatives blame everything on God. A friend of mine from college lost a younger sibling in a car accident when he was 14 (the sibling was 12) somehow this was God's will, from a conservative point of view. A more progressive or liberal person would acknowledge that sh** happens. It is horrible that his sibling died but it certainly wasn't God's will. It is what happens when a vehicle runs off the road and hits a tree and someone flies through the windshield.

"not my will, but yours" seems more of an acknowledgement of having limited control over one's own life.

Thank you for posting these! I love the bumper stickers. I've been looking for one similar to the Straight, not Narrow. Trying to figure out how to design it.

I like this.

I've found more truth in secular music than in the current christian music that is available. From what I can tell Christian music hit a high point with telling the truth in the 90's then crashed and burned.

I appreciate the effort but if you use "spirit" to define spiritual, nothing is gained. I don't see spiritual as needing to be contrasted to religion. Although the poetry of what you posted is certainly aethestically pleasing. Perhaps I could better word my question: What do you perceive as your spriritual needs? People talk about going to church or doing this or that to have their spiritual needs met but in all the conversations (in person and via the web) I've had no one has been able to explain a spiritual need as anything that wouldn't be equally explained as a psychological need.

I've posed this question numerous times in numerous situations and still don't understand what "spiritual" means. Anyone help? Remember the rule when you were school: you can't use the word you are trying to define in the definition!

I adamently disagree. If God is God then we can completely know God through Reason. God is afterall, the author of Reason. God certainly did not give us a brain and the ability to use it and then tell us to stop using the brain we were given! It is emotion which keeps us from God. The ups and downs of life. Read through the Psalms. One minute God is far away and has abonded the Psalmist the next God is invovled in every aspect of his(?) life. So which is it? Has God abandoned the writer or is God always there? The Psalmist is expression his own emotion regarding how he feels at the moment. God isn't any further away or an closer based on the Psalmist experience. It is only when the Psalmist can remind himself using his reason that God is there regardless of how he is currenlty feeling that he will be able to truly know God at all times! Now Imagination, that is another story.

I think that is a good way to explain it. And I agree. One of my first moves from Conservativism to Progressivism was recognizing that All Truth is God's Truth, regardless of the source.

The notion that Jesus held the scripture to be God's Word is an interesting concept, allbeit a misconception. The New Testament didn't exist at the time. The idea of "God's Word" didn't exist at the time. It is a modern idea. Judaism has traditionally been a religion of discussion and debate. Interpreters freely disagree with each other about what means what. Certainly you can find truth anywhere so the bible would not be any different than a piece of artwork, a poem, a song, a book, newspaper article or a speech. It is when the bible becomes a weapon in the hands of some that I draw the line. Some use it to decide who is "in" and who is "out." When Conservatives and Fundamentalists put gay people "out" they automatically become in as far as God is concerned. Read what Jesus has to say about the religious leaders of his time and their desires to determine who is "in" and who is "out." THose who they determined to be "out" were the same people who Jesus said were "in."

It isn't just *someone's ideas* it is someone claiming to be speaking for God and knowing what God thinks! While it is wrong to call someone who is gay an abomination it is even more wrong to claim that God believes such. It makes me sick to see someone use God to justify their own hatred.

You can also add "which manuscript." I tell you, study Greek, understand how the bible was put together and is put together today. The idea of inerrancy will fly out the window!