Deadworm

*2( The Nazareth inscription is a tablet from the emperor, warning that the penalty for grave robbing is death. Most scholars date it to the time of Claudius (c. 41 AD). In 1878 it was initially brought to Nazareth, Jesus' home town. If Claudius is indeed the inscription's source. and if it was found near Nazareth, then it would likely be prompted by a Roman belief in the same charge that Jews made against Jesus' disciples: that the disciples stole Jesus' body. If so, these charges likely mean that neither the Jews nor the Romans know why Jesus' body was missing from the tomb. There is scant evidence that the Romans executed ordinary grave robbers. So the death penalty here probably reflects a Roman belief in Christianity as a troublesome cult focused on someone who committed a crime against Rome (e. g. sedition).Unfortunately, the original locale of the tablet is unknown, but it is brought to officials in Nazareth. So it is probably discovered near there. Still, it seems unlikely Claudius would bother authorizing such a tablet to be written and sent to Palestine, unless a charge of notorious grave robbing had been leveled. Based on the style of lettering, the Decapolis has been proposed as an alternative place of origin. But the Decapolis is a hotbed of early Christianity. So whether it comes from Nazareth or the Decapolis, the tablet indirectly seems to attest the mystery of Jesus' empty tomb. Of course, the earliest Gospel tradition about Jesus' burial (Mark) identifies a member of the 'Sanhedrin, Joseph of Arimathea, as sympathetic to Jesus (though not a disciple!) of Jesus and as gaining permission to bury a prematurely dead Jesus so as not to profane the Sabbath. In short, apologists are overreaching to claim this as proof of the resurrection, but the tablet looms as a relevant artifact possibly alluding to the witness to Jesus' bodily resurrection.For a scholarly discussion, see:http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post/2009/07/22/The-Nazareth-Inscription-Proof-of-the-Resurrection-of-Christ.aspx

Sometimes people apparently aren't healed because the right faith-filled person did not prayer for the answer to the need in question. This thread will explore several relevant testimonies and then reflect on (a) the biblical basis for this reality and (b) what this means for the church's ministry of prayer support. (1) Anglican mystic, Agnes Sanford, has written several books on prayer and spirituality. In her classic, "The Healing Light," she tells the story of her dying baby grandson. Doctors had doomed the baby to imminent death. She was caring for the boy and organized prayer vigils to pray for healing--to no effect. She prayed constantly for healing without success. Then one day, a young first-year Bible school student dropped by, saying, "I heard you have a dying baby here and I've come to pray for his healing." Agnes said she felt indignant at his presumption. Didn't he realize that she was an expert on prayer and that the room was prayer-saturated? The arrogance of this inexperienced young man! But she couldn't bring herself to deny his request; so she grudgingly complied. She watched as he picked up the baby with joy radiating from his face as he lovingly prayed for the boy's recovery. She saw the baby gloriously healed before her very eyes, and was properly humbled by the realization that this young man was the right person at that time to serve as God's instrument of healing.She was too ego-invested and too agitated to be God's instrument of healing in this case, and the Bible school student's calm divinely instilled confidence was exactly what God needed to channel full healing. Such anecdotes can be multiplied.

So I theorize that Mark really was Peter's son and that Mark's Gospel is a son's record of his Dad's memoirs of Jesus' life. This theory gets more complicated and thus more interesting when we ask the question, "Is Peter's Mark the same as John Mark in the Book of Acts?" Luke can alternately name John Mark as just Mark (Acts 15:39) and the In Luke's story of Paul's prison escape, he chooses to go the house of "Mary the mother of John, whose other name was Mark (Acts 12:12)." why didn't he instead go to the house of the leader of the Jerusalem church, Jesus' brother James (12:17)? Well, Peter was married, and so, it seems natural that his first impulse would be to go home and notify his family that he was OK and now free, but had to get out of Dodge. If he did so, that would make Mary Peter's wife and Mark his son--which would corroborate Peter's reference to "my son Mark" in 1 Peter 5:13. Why is this house referred to as Mary's house in a patriarchal society where we would expect her husband to be named? Either Mary is divorced or widowed or she is Peter's wife. But why doesn't Luke just say so? Well, in Luke and the other Gospels, women are often identified by their sons (e. g. Mary the mother of..,) and Luke may want to prepare us for the missionary career of John Mark which he is about to mention in 12:25. One might equally ask, "Who doesn't Luke ever tell us that James is Jesus' brother?" Mary's status as Peter's wife may well have simply dropped out of the tradition available to Luke. The John Mark who serves as Paul's missionary companion in Acts is named just Mark in Colossians 4:10, 2 Timothy 4:11, and Philemon 24.

(3) Rev.Albert Baldeo was a Canadian United Church minister. He was a friend of my Dad's because Dad's brother-in-law had apparently played a role in Albert's conversion in Trinidad. Albert, now deceased, was one of the most respected ministers in Kelowna, BC in Canada. He was respected enough to be given a weekly column in the city paper. One of his articles described his Dad's shared NDE and I confirmed the ensuing description of it by direct contact with Albert: Albert also wrote an article about this shared NDE in the Kelowna newspaper. Albert was present at his Dad's death vigil in a nursing home. At 11:45 AM, his Dad sat up, looked ahead at an apparition, and exclaimed, "Hurry up, brother, hurry up!" Within a few seconds he passed away. Only later did Albert discover that his Dad's brother was simultaneously dying in another nursing home 10 miles away. That death vigil was also witnessed by family members. As death drew near, that brother suddenly sat up, gazed in the distance, and exclaimed, "Wait for me, brother, wait for me!" Seconds later, he died, and the family members present noted the time--11:45 AM! Two brothers were able to react to each other 10 physical miles apart and then their spirits were able to enter eternity simultaneously. Mind-blowing unique evidence for the reality of the soul!

But "the word of knowledge" is a spiritual gift that can be part of a learning curve and its application is not always easy to grasp. Consider these 2 examples: (6) At age 19, I was a Winnipeg college student. About 5 years my senior, my friend Dallas was the leader of our church youth group of about 150. I had just been Best Man at his wedding and was now invited to the newlyweds post-Christmas dinner. After eating, we played table tennis in their basement. Dallas mentioned that he was going deer hunting in northern Manitoba the next day and I instantly felt a sense of dread. It seemed as if I saw his skeleton and was certain that he would be killed in an accident if he went on this trip. Horrified, I felt compelled to share my premonition with him. He was offended and blamed my so-called premonition on my anti-huntng views. I had no such views, though I've never gone hunting myself. What could I do? I had no evidence beyond my certainty. I guess I hoped God would confirm my premonition to Dallas. A few days later, we had a New Year's Eve service at our church. What happened when I arrived at the church was straight out of a horror movie. 3 young girls in our youth group approached me, giggling, and said. You do know that Dallas was killed yesterday in a hunting accident. He was riding a snowmobile with his gun leaning beside him and hit a bump, which caused his rifle to discharge into his shoulder. He bled to death before his hunting buddies got him to a doctor. Thr girls giggled and one said to the other, "Wow, I guess we sure ruined his day!" It was as if Hell was taunting me for my friendship with Dallas. What was so funny about their youth leader's death? I charitably assumed that their was just a nervous laughter. I later obsessed over what this tragedy meant. Why was I given this premonition if it would be useless to prevent his death? And was his death predestined fate? The ultimate indignity for Dallas is that a massive year book with photos was created that covered my church's long history and in the list of youth leaders Dallas's name was inadvertently left out, as if he never existed. (7) In my senior year at Princeton Seminary, I was about to return home for Christmas vacation. My friend Ted had just been accepted in the D. Phil. program in New Testament at Cambridge U. and I also wanted to apply to that doctoral program. So I went to Ted's dorm room and asked if I could borrow his Cambridge catalogue. As I did, I suddenly "saw" his skeleton and knew that his death was imminent. But what could I do? I didn't know how he would die. So I tried to put this knowledge out of my mind and flew home for Christmas. When I returned, I learned from Ted's friend Ken that Ted had been killed in a car accident. Ken was driving him home to Ohio, when Ken's car slipped on an icy freeway onramp and the car crashed into a pole, killing Ted and breaking Ken's arm. I had tried to suppress my premonition. In retrospect, I wondered if God alerted me to Dallas's and Ken's fate because He wanted me to intercede for their protection. M

Scientific evidence will be provided in future posts, but in my view is not even remotely as convincing as the verifications provided by the anecdotal evidence that will be posted in this series of ADCs and NDEs. I'm just grateful for such thoughtful engagement from the few who still post here. I've been posting on very popular conservative Christian sites, but despite the large number of post viewers there, few actually watch the videos or respond to the evidential details of the accounts. Instead, they warn of the dangers of occult visions and cite irrelevant OT texts that warn of the dangers of necromancy and mediumship. Very frustrating! I used to pursue dialogue on NDEs and ADCs on New Age sites because some of those sites attract honest seekers. 10 years ago, I posted for a month or so on "Astral Pulse," a site devoted to methods for leaving the body at will and exploring astral territories. That site has one section devoted to Religions; so I camped there for a while. One OBE adept there gave the typical skeptics' vehemently cynical critiques for rejecting Christianity. I was deeply moved by my rereading of his threads. Why? Because in recent years, I encountered his scorn on another New Age site,, on which I posted ADC/ NDE discussions like I'm promoting here. After a couple of years, he became a radiant evangelical Christian who now renounces his OBE explorations as spiritually dangerous and was quickly transformed from that site's darling to its pariah! I wondered if my Christian witness contributed in some small way to that transformation. But as we communicated more, I realized that the main factor was the witness of evangelical friends who enticed him to their church in Brazil.

(4) The major turning point in my life that I'm about to share is also by far the spiritual and emotional high point in my life. Even now, decades later, I constantly draw spiritual nourishment from the very memory of that fateful day I was "ambushed" by an experience of glossolalia at Manhattan Beach Camp in Manitoba. I was 16 at the time and felt I had lost my faith. I was determined to give it my best shot to find God real, but not to succumb to wishful thinking and emotionalism. That fateful, Tuesday, I went on a 7 mile walk towards Ninette, MB, pleading with God to make Himself real to me. That evening, I did something I'd never done before. I fasted for dinner and put my dinner money in the offering plate. After the service, I stayed at the altar and prayed to be filled with the Spirit as I had previously done in vain. After almost everyone (about 1,000) left the amphitheater, my heart still felt like stone as I tarried in prayer. Then suddenly I felt a warm breeze, but it wasn't the wind from nearby Pelican Lake; it was the Holy Spirit first warming me and then possessing me. I was forced against my will to speak in tongues at the top of my voice. More importantly, wave after wave of liquid love surged through my being with ever increasing intensity until I feared it might kill me. My ego seemed on the verge of collapse into the divine presence. A Lutheran pastor observed me, unseen, and quietly came and knelt beside me. He told me he was not Pentecostal and had only come to the camp meeting as an interested observer. He said he could tell God was doing a special work in me and he asked me to pray for him. The moment i touched his forehead, he exploded into tongues like me. Another lady was sitting in the now darkened amphitheater and just staring at me. Self-conscious, I asked her why? She said, "Don't you know? Your face is glowing in the dark!" When it was all over, I realized that God had said to me clearly: "Son, you long for answers to burning questions. But answers aren't good for you right now. They will make you live in your head, and I want to live in your heart. I want you to live your questions until they lead you to the center of my heart." That is the reason for my long educational pilgrimage from BA (U. of Winnipeg) to MDiv (Princeton) to doctorate in New Testament, Judaism, and Greco-Roman Backgrounds (Harvard). Interestingly, the experience made me a much better student than I had been. And like marijuana, that experience of glossolalia seems to have functioned like a gateway spiritual drug that soon led to other gripping experiences of other spiritual gifts, especially "the word of knowledge" (1 Corinthians 12:8-10). (5) Previously, I had not been a stellar student in school and was insecure about God's plans for my future. But shortly after the experience, I suddenly knew that I'd receive the highest GPA in Manitoba in my senior year. Decades later, my cousin, a psychiatrist, reminded me that I had shared "this word of knowledge" with him when I recounted my tongues experience. That experience evidently improved my mental capacity. When Premier Duff Roblyn publicly acknowledged that achievement at my graduation, I felt that my somewhat awkward attempts at Christian witnessing were rendered more effective and I became more confident in a calling to an academic life. But my next 2 experiences of "the word of knowledge" (premonitions) were as puzzling and disturbing as they were riveting. More on that in my next planned post.

Aristion and John the Elder were "disciples of Jesus" and were therefore themselves eyewitnesses. There is not a shred of evidence for your claim that Papias needed to establish his legitimacy. The challenge you level against the witness of this disciple that Mark's Gospel is based on Peter's lectures is absurd because Papias's claim finds independent corroboration by Peter (1 Peter 5:13) and by Justin in Rome, where Mark's Gospel was likely written. The connection between Mark and his mentor Peter is also the unanimous consensus of the Church Fathers in the 2nd century.

(1) Atheist Morton Smith is a genuine scholar. In his unique book, "Jesus the Magician," he reconstructs the version of Jesus' life as told by His Jewish detractors. I have summarized his findings in the paragraph below. The main source is the Platonist Celsus, who interviewed Jewish leaders to get their version of Jesus' life. Some of what they share can be independently corroborated by earlier sources traceable to the first century. I have cited other sources in parentheses for certain negative Jewish traditions about Jesus. Jesus is the illegitimate son of a Roman soldier named Panthera and a spinner woman (Rabbi Eliezer--70 AD). Her husband disowned her for her adultery and Jesus was born while she was on the run. He got a job in Egypt as a laborer and took the opportunity to become an adept in magic there. Jesus even had himself tattooed with magical spells (Celsus--170 AD--also responsible for the ensuing claims). Returning to Galilee Jesus hung out with sailors of the worst sort, and wandered from place to place, making his living shamefully as a beggar. He recruited 10 (not 12) disciples and taught them to indulge in secret orgies in defiance of the Law of Moses. He persuaded the masses that he was the Messiah by his miracles, which were either demonically powered or nothing more than magically induced hallucinations. His cures were not real and did not last (Quadratus--100-125 AD). Even his own family rejected his claims. He was tried and executed by Pilate for sedition and the practice of magic. His disciples stole his body and then claimed that they saw him after he rose from the dead. Some say the gardener at the tomb site removed the body to discourage sightseers from stepping on his lettuce (Tertullian--208 AD). But the false claim that he rose from the dead has gained him a huge following. Both believers and Jesus' Jewish detractors agree (1) that Joseph is not Jesus' true father, If Joseph is not Jesus' father, then we need to choose between His illegitimate birth and His virgin birth. (2) that to His Jewish audience, Jesus appeared to perform miracles: Notice that His Jewish detractors don't claim that these miracle stories are later fabrications. (3) that Jesus' crucified body was not buried by Roman soldiers in the customary manner: So His missing corpse forced speculation on His body's fate. (4) that, unlike our Gospels His detractors are interested in His physical appearance: "Was the claim that he was tattooed related to Paul's claim, "I carry the marks of Jesus branded on my body (Galatians 6:17)? Those marks are usually interpreted, rightly I think, as Paul's wounds inflicted for his Gospel witness. Reply Repo

The book, "Lighted Passage," was brought to the attention of an agnostic friend of mine by a colleague who worked with him at HUD and was a relative of the author, Dr. Howell Vincent. Dr. Vincent, a Presbyterian minister, wrote this book, about his daughter Rea and her death in a car accident on her honeymoon. His description of a shared ADC involving his late first wife Nellie and other family members is quoted from p. 25: (2) "On at least 2 occasions this radiant mother had come to Rea in visible tangible form and talked with her...I was privileged to be present at one of these heavenly visits by Mother Nellie. Together with Rea I talked with Nellie, fully recognizing her face and form and voice. I saw her place her hand on Rea's head in blessing, and I saw her give Rea a flower, a calendula, which we pressed and kept. At that time 3 other members of our family were present, including Rea's second mother, Agnes, and they all saw Nellie and talked with her, as Rea and I did. We were all wide awake and walked around the room with Nellie." From an evidential perspective this testimony rivals the Gospel resurrection stories and, for that very reason, lends them added credibility. Rev. Vincent's testimony certainly opened my agnostic HUD executive friend's heart to the Gospel and the possibility that Jesus really did rise from the dead. This ADC is similar to Jesus' resurrection appearances--e. g. Nellie's interaction with several family members, the experience of her blessing touch, and her provision of a supernaturally created keepsake.

(1) NDE researchers like Dr. Raymond Moody are now writing books about shared NDEs, which are generally far more evidential than most conventional NDEs because the doctors, nurses, and family members witnessing the apparent deaths actually experience key elements of the NDEs, including the OBE, the encounter with deceased friends and relatives, the dying person's past life review, and the encounter with the Being of Light! (1a) Watch this brief interview with Dr. Moody for a summary of this type of afterlife evidence:https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...5FEC&FORM=VIREElsewhere Dr. Moody describes his own shared NDE at his mother's deathbed. The shared nature of these NDEs is somewhat reminiscent of Jesus' resurrection appearances.(1b) For a gripping personal account of a shared NDE, watch Dr. Scott Taylor's testimony:https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...E67B&FORM=VIRESuch shared NDEs refute the claim of skeptics that NDEs are delusions caused by oxygen deprivation in a dying brain.

Let me begin with this disclaimer: I am an evangelical Christian for whom Christ's atoning death and resurrection are the anchor of my faith. But at their best, the verifications inherent in ADCs (=After-Death Contacts) and NDEs (near-death experiences) seem more evidentially probative even than the evidence for Jesus' resurrection and, in my experience of evangelistic witnessing, are far more effective than any Bible-based apologetics. To demonstrate why I will share some of the most mind-blowing evidential NDEs and ADCs I have encountered, including some of the most convincing which have not been published. But first, I will provide some biblical background for ADCs: (1) Apart from Jesus' resurrection appearances, the most obvious NT example of an ADC is the return of Moses and Elijah to be present with Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration (Mark 9:2-9 and parallels). (2) "After His resurrection, they [deceased saints] came out of the tombs and came into the holy city and appeared to many (Matthew 27:53)." Whether their bodies were actually resurrected or their spirits simply appeared to the living in Jerusalem, these paranormal appearances qualify as ADCs. (3) Hebrews 12:1: "Since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight and the sin that clings so closely and run with perseverance the race that is set before us." In part this image of "the cloud of witnesses" refers back to the list of OT saints discussed in chap. 11. But in Hebrews, the word "witnesses" (Greek: martyres) always refers to eyewitnesses and the witnesses in 12:1 do not precede the living spiritual athletes, but rather surround them. So "the cloud of witnesses" are alive and are currently monitoring the progress of the spiritual athletes competing in the arena below. Hebrews 12:1 is thus an important prooftext for the affirmation in the Apostles' Creed, "I believe in the communion of saints." We don't need to embrace the Catholic practice of praying to deceased saints to recognize this point. (4) In the Catholic OT Judas Maccabaeus has a vision of 2 deceased saints, the high priest Onias III and the prophet Jeremiah, whose encouragement and prayer support spur them on to military victory in Israel's decisive battle with the Greeks (2 Maccabees 15:6-19). True, this book is absent from the Protestant canon. But this visionary appearance of Jeremiah inspires speculation that Jesus in fact represents Jeremiah's return from the grave (Matthew 16:14). (5) NDEs are experienced as a form of OBE. Paul considers his visit to Paradise a possible OBE (2 Corinthians 12:1-5) and Ezekiel describes his visions like ADCs: e. g.: "Then the Spirit lifted me up (Ezekiel 3:12)." My next planned posts will document some of the most evidentially impressive ADCs and NDEs. Please share any ADCs or NDEs that you or your acquaintances have experienced and what you think of them. Reply

How can the Gospel of Mark be connected with eyewitness testimony about Jesus? Papias expresses his preference for eyewitness oral testimony about Jesus' words and deeds over written works: "What was to be gleaned from books was not so profitable to me as what came from a living and abiding voice." Papias distinguishes what disciples like John the son of Zebedee used to say orally from what still living disciples, Aristion and John the Elder were currently saying on their visits. Papias (c. 60-130 AD) is early enough to have conversed with the eyewitnesses or to have heard what they were saying during their visits. What Papias learns from John the Elder, probably one of the 70 disciples outside the circle of the 12, implies that Mark provides Peter's teaching notes: "[John] the Elder also said this: "Mark, being the interpreter of Peter, whatever he remembered, he wrote accurately, but not in order, that these things were spoken or done by our Lord. For he neither heard the Lord nor followed Him, but afterwords, as I said, he was with Peter, who did not make an ordered account of the Lord's sayings, but constructed His teachings according to "chreiai" [= concise self-contained teachings]/ So Mark did nothing wrong in writing down single matters as he remembered them, for he gave special attention to one thing, of not passing by anything he heard and not falsifying anything in these matters (Eusebius HE 3.39.15)." Both Papias's testimony and the unusual number of Latinisms in Mark establish Rome as the most likely locale for this Gospel's origin. For that reason, Justin Martyr's reference to Mark as the memoirs of Peter is another important witness to its connection with eyewitness testimony to Jesus' life: “And when it is said that He changed the name of one of the apostles to Peter; and when it is written in his memoirs that this so happened, as well as that He changed the names of other two brothers, the sons of Zebedee, to Boanerges, which means sons of thunder (Justin, Dialogue with Trypho 106:3)." Mark (3:16-17) is the only extant Gospel that records Jesus' assignment of "Boanerges" (= the Thunder Boys" or literally "the sons of thunder") as a nickname for James and John. The nickname likely reflects Jesus' witty response to James and John's desire to call down a lightning strike on a Samaritan village for their rude treatment there (Luke 9:52-55). Justin's lifespan (estimated at 100-165 AD) is close enough to the NT era to have access to reliable oral tradition. What makes Mark uniquely credible are embarrassing details about Jesus that are not likely to be invented. Consider these 4 cases in point. (1) Mark implies that Jesus tried and failed to perform miracles in His home town: "He could do no deeds of power there, except that He laid hands on a few sick people and cured them (6:5)." NT scholars recognize the awkwardly worded except-clause as a later gloss. If this clause were authentic , we would expect the text to read, "He could do only a few deeds of power there." (2) the concession that Jesus' own family did not consider His ministry legitimate: "When His family heard it, they went out to physically restrain Him; for they were saying, He is out of his mind (3:21)!" Jesus: "A prophet is not without honor except in his hometown and among his own kin and in his own house (6:4)." John 7:5 provides further support of the skepticism of Jesus' family: "Even His own brothers didn't believe in Him!" (3) the implication in 8:22-26 that Jesus needs 2 attempts to complete the blind man's healing. (4) Mark's willing to quote Jesus as apparently denying His personal goodness and eve distinguishing Himself from God: "Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone (Mark 10:18-7-18)."

By "not engaging" I'm simply referring to the lack of participating members, not the quality of the interactions.

I've been posting on other Christians sites lately because of the lack of engaging dialogue here. Remember, my earlier point was this: progressives seem to lack the integrity to even discover what the alleged conservative evidence is for an eyewitness Gospel connection. I've waited to see whether this critique is refuted by some progressive poster. Since it has not, I will provide my defense for this claim in my next planned posts here.

(3) At age 11, I realized that I should be baptized to please my parents and obey the Gospel. I had to attend a few preparatory catechetical classes and I was the only child among about 11 adult male candidates. The classes appalled me because the lecturer used poorly explained jargon like justification, propitiation, and sanctification which produceded excruciation in the mind of this young boy who couldn't grasp the meaning of these big words. Quoting Colossians 2:11 , the lecturer informed us that we needed to be "circumcised in spirit." That might have been helpful if I knew what physical circumcision was and if he explained this jargon. I would be the last of the 12 to be baptized by immersion in a large tank behind the platform before a crowd of about 1,400 people. I was petrified because I learned I was expected to share a personal testimony in front of that huge crowd and because, blush, the bottom of my baptismal robe seemed to float up, exposing my nakedness! All the men gave a formulaic personal testimony that I can recite even today. Then I nervously waded out to the pastor and he asked me, "Donny, would you like to share a word for the Lord Jesus?" I shook my head in the negative. So the pastor continued, "OK, let me ask you some faith questions." I felt publicly humiliated as the only one not to share a testimony and at that point I just wanted to get this ordeal over with to please my parents. But after the pastor dunked me, something amazing happened as I emerged from the water. I suddenly had a vision of Jesus, smiling at me, radiating love and conveying the feeling that He found my predicament rather amusing. I sensed His empathy for my confusion over all the poorly explained catechetical jargon and my groundless fear about my nakedness being exposed by the floating bottom of my robe. And years later when I became a theology professor, I reflected that Jesus must have found it amusing that a motormouth like me would be utterly tongue-tied at my youthful baptism. My first and only vision in my life transformed an unpleasant baptismal ordeal into one of the most sacred and treasured memories of my life!

Julius Africanus lived in Emmaus in Judea and is recognized for his access to ancient Palestinian Jewish Christian traditions. He identifies Jesus' family members as those who defended Jesus' messianic descent from David during their ministry travels: "From the Jewish villages of Nazareth and Kokhaba they [Jesus' relatives] travelled around the rest of the land and interpreted the genealogy they had [from the family tradition] and the Book of Days [I. e. Chronicles] (Julius Africanus quoted in Eusebebius HE `.7.14)." Paul alludes to the ministry travels of Jesus' brothers in 1 Corinthians 9:5). It would helpful to know whether Jesus' relatives defended Matthew's or Luke's genealogy. And since the Gospels associate Jesus' genealogies with the Infancy Narratives, it seems likely that Jesus' brothers or family in general are the source for the earliest version of the Christmas story. I wish we knew whether they circulated Matthew's or Luke's version--or elements of both. As you know, our 2 Christmas stories contain difficult apparent inconsistencies and the challenge of the extent to which the 2 accounts can be grounded in history fascinates me. As a newbie to this site, I'm impressed with your scholarly reading and reflection on apologetic issues. But would someone respond to my challenge about how conservative scholars connect our Gospels with eyewitness testimony? I have read through many posts here and see no evidence of any awareness of the conservative positions being assailed.

Yes. Maybe we know the some of the same people. My first memory of Colville Rotarians is highly embarrassing. I had just arrived as the new UMC pastor was invited to attend a meeting of the local ministerial association, which I was told met in the basement room of a local restaurant. So I walked down the steps, and seeing a group of men sitting around a long table, I quipped, "Well, you guys look like a bunch of ministers! I must have come to the right place." They laughed as they told me this was a Rotarian meeting. I can't recall if I found out the right restaurant basement.

Respectfully, Paul, your response demonstrates an ignorance of the NT principles of how intercessory prayer works. Perhaps I should eventually start a thread on the subject to demonstrate in detail what I mean.

Joseph's death prior to Jesus' ministry derives support from 3 points: (1) In Jesus' home town, people who know Jesus' family identify him as "the son of Mary," something unthinkable in that patriarchal culture, unless Joseph is long dead. Those who make this reference are skeptics of Jesus' ministry and therefore they don't believe in the virgin birth. The possible implicaiotn of charge of Jesus' illegitimacy does not invalidate this observation, if Joseph winds up as Mary's husband, especially in view of (2) below. (2) Jesus would hardly entrust the care of His mother to the Beloved Disciple if Joseph were alive to care for his own wife.

No, but my case here is based on my role as unofficial advisor to a doctoral dissertation on the subject that led to 2 books with which I have strong disagreements.

But the scholarly consensus recognizes the likelihood that Joseph is dead before Jesus begins His public ministry. The point about Joseph's participation in Judas's revolt in 6 AD is admittedly conjecture, but it is interesting conjecture because Jesus' perspective on loving enemies seems tp play off of the opposite view of violent revolutionary sentiment focused on Sepphoris a city of about 25,000 just a 3-mile walk from Nazareth. Jewish rebels stole weapons from the armory there.

That's just my sick sense of humor. I had just signed up and no one was around! Like Jesus, I was using shcck tactics to try to draw some life out of this site. In fact, there is no way of knowing whether Jesus masturbated. Several other points can be made about "the missing years" of Jesus' life, but I'll only mention 2 here: (1) Joseph seems to have been long dead by time Jesus begins His adult ministry. Joseph does not figure in any story of the adult Jesus' ministry and at the cross Jesus entrusts the care of Mary to the Beloved Disciple. Jesus would not have done so, if Joseph were alive to care for his own wife. The last time the Gospels prorray Joseph as alive is the story of the family dust-up over a 12-year-old Jesus' decision to leave his family entourage without informing His parents when they were returning from the Passover celebration in Jerusalem. Many scholars accept Raymond Brown's view that Jesus was born in 6 BC; and that was the year when Judas the Gaiilean led a Jewish revolt against Rome, which the Romans brutally crushed. Because there is evidence that Joseph was alive immediately prior to that revolt, but none that he was alive after it, there is a chance that Joseph was killedduring this revolt. The Lucan Infancy Narratives portray Mary as expecting Jesus to grow up to be a poitically liberating Messiah. In any case, when we think of the mssing years, we should probably think of a grieving Jesus coping with the loss of Joseph. How sad that Joseph never lived long enough to see Jesus' phenomenal ministry success and messianic accliaim! (2) Jesus' family was hostile to His public ministry: "His own brothers didn't believe in Him (John 6L5)." Jesus' family members are appalled by Jesus' refusal to offer His audience a lunch break during His long teaching sessions. " When they [His family] heard it, they went out to physically restrain Him; for they were saying He is out of His mind (Mark 3:19)." While visiting His home town, Nazareth, Jesus complains, "A prophet is without honor in His own town town and among His own kin and in His own house (Mark 6:4)." Jesus is referring here to His own family's hostility towards His ministry and messianic claims. So it seems clear that Jesus was unremarkable during His life as a carpenter prior to His baptism by John the Baptist and His cisionary reception of the Holy Spirit. After all, He was apparently unable to save Joseph's life.

Bo, the debate also stressed Jesus' teaching on marriage as between a man and a woman and biblical perspectives in general. It's just that some African speakers stressed that same-sex sect acts were illegal in their countries. Russian delegates from predominantly Muslim provinces warned that persecution forced them to worship In secret, that their whole society was anti-gay, and that UMC approval of same-sex marriage and ordination would lead to the end of their ability to worship as Methodists in their countries.