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thormas

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thormas last won the day on October 1

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About thormas

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  • Birthday July 20

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  1. Heathens! 2

    Good one: very possible
  2. Heathens! 2

    Well, a girl has to pass the time some way - besides could be a rendering of the minister. I remember some like that.
  3. Heathens! 2

    This makes one wonder which breed would best represent each pope thru the ages.
  4. Heathens! 2

    this is either deeply sad or deeply scaring.....................
  5. Heathens! 2

    and I'm gone.............
  6. Living with Uncertainty

    I guess that is where I differ: I have to - or at least want to- know. Of course I recognize and accept that full knowledge will never come 'this side of the grave' still I think we can know (something) and it is a worthy endeavor. However I do think there is 'guess work' in faith also: you reason so far and then decide to go with it or not. I agree with your statement and much of the same applies to faith,
  7. Not sure how we even got here, but I'm totally comfortable saying God is not community. Although community is not possible without God/Love (which results in connectedness) and also, if God is Love, in some way he 'needs' (once there is creation) or at least desires community. As for creation, although I agree that God is Creator, I don't thing he is the immediate cause for magnetism, earth, moon and sun. But always thought, given the story of Genesis, that God was in relation with creation long before man came to be.
  8. Say what? Lions and tigers and bears...............and magnetism?? Anyway, the emphasis is on other not separate.
  9. I get the idea that God can be a symbol for community: a symbol points to and makes something present so God/Love as symbol (if taken seriously) makes community present. I do not agree that God is separate. Even theism, though it emphasizes the transcendence of God, also speaks to his immanence. However, panentheism does not hold that God is either separate or identified with creation. Rather God is always with/in creation, yet always 'more' - but never separate. And I do agree that the two great commandments are one. One figure in the history of Christianity (blank on who it was right now) said: "love......and do what you will." Once you love others (for who else does one love?) - all else is commentary. Spong talks about God as a verb and thus the commandment is not to love God, it is to love! If one loves, if one is doing love, they are doing what God is - there is no other worship worthy of the name. The commandments are one: you cannot love God if you do not love (not humanity but) individual men and women throughout your life. And if you love others, you are the embodiment of the commandment.
  10. Decline of Christianity in the West

    I don't disagree but the effort must be (and is being) made. Also, 'common sense meanings' might be totally off base and need adjustments. Not sure about the peasant revolution but theologians I have read (Baum, Hick, Macquarrie and others) are believers and take incredible pains to explain and provide insight. In a revolution, I'd probably leave the area but if I stayed, I'd lean toward the theologians because some of the peasants are just plain off the wall (I emphasize some).
  11. Decline of Christianity in the West

    Sometimes, as in the video, people just don't pay attention. However, there are times, like driving a car in England, when one must 'adapt to the new' circumstances; and, other times, like reading the signs while driving a car in Germany, when 'one needs a translator' to proceed and reach the destination.
  12. Decline of Christianity in the West

    Just to be clear, I don't mean thoughtlessly forgoing beliefs because of the mainstream culture but I do think it is imperative to be cognizant of and use that culture, its worldview and its philosophies as vehicles to explain Christianity - if not, most can't and don't hear it. This is what the early church did as it moved into the wider world, it is (and has been) time for an 'update.' I have tried to give examples of this with the Trinity, original sin and even how Jesus can be god and man.
  13. Decline of Christianity in the West

    I totally get the understandings listed above - and we were fed some of this too. For example, I loved being a little kid, confessing to the Monsignor that I had disobeyed my parents (not sure it was any real disobedience at that age) and he asked, 'don't you love your mommy and daddy?" He was, at least at that time, a bit of an ######. I also had the 'pleasure' of being a teacher and one of my childhood priests ( different one) was a teacher I had to evaluate as I was the Chairperson. I tried to gently explain his kids were bored, not paying attention and seemed to not care. A 'fun' discussion. Then there was yet another Monsignor who we went to in preparation for marriage and, my wife, being raise Protestant, was ignored. Well, I am Irish and I have a temper but I restrained myself, debated his theology and took my bride to be by the hand and walked out. So, I have been there with not only the beliefs but the actions/attitudes of some. I get what you said about the re-telling and I agree that it does not get down to those in the pews. I was educated in a Catholic seminary (not in preparations to be a priest - I didn't like to wear black and I liked girls, so that wasn't going to work as a career :+}) by some amazingly brilliant and open guys (mostly priests) but I saw fellow students and later some of these priests in schools and parishes back to business as usual. And the beat goes on..........
  14. Decline of Christianity in the West

    Bill, I look upon the doctrines and dogmas that don't make sense a bit differently. I know about the battles and the political influence that affected some church councils but, on the whole, these were men, who 'believed' and tried to protect the faith and, at the same time, clarify Christian belief. Like all men, some were saints, some in it for themselves, some scared beyond their wits and on an on. Did some, then and later go too far? To me the answer is obvious on individual, group and country levels.Were mistakes made, were grave sins committed? Is the Pope Catholic? And, I believe it goes on today in various degrees. Some doctrines don't make much sense, but others, especially if updated hold true. Original sin: I do not accept a long lost paradise but the idea that we are born into a world of sin that can influence us, seems obvious. And it seems obvious that man chose self over love/God. Thus the need for salvation. In Christianity, man can't save himself and referring back to Baum and the way God is always incarnate in creation, it is this "other,' this 'more,' incarnate in others, that calls man to a new awareness and gives him the courage to be. I do not agree with substitutionary atonement but I get the ancient notion - although it wasn't the only rationale given for the 'why' of the death of Jesus. Rapture - I don't even know where that came from. Revelations?? Too many read it literally as a prophecy of what will come: don't think we Catholics believed in the Rapture?? Hell: I don't buy that it is eternal but that it is 'real;" if man need love, needs to be loving in order to be truly Human and if one decides agains love, there is no other way to be Human, there is nothing (hell). The Good News is that, as shown in the Prodigal Son, God waits for all time (even beyond death), calling, encouraging until each of his prodigal sons and daughters turns back. So, hell real but not eternal. Virgin birth: it has been accepted as literal, haven't thought on it much but would have to go back to see if scholars agree that it was intended to be 'history.' I do not dispute what some of us had to believe to become or stay Christians but I don't fully agree that all don't make sense - especially if explained 'better.' But this is the crux of the matter: Christianity must be re-told to speak to and be good news to every new generation. Rather than check your brains, there are other options but some probably mean saying No and going from there. Christians will always be believers - but some are believers with brains. I do agree that this retelling is not happening in the mainline churches and so members continue to check out. Just wanted to try to show that what the Churches profess is not all there is to Christianity.
  15. Decline of Christianity in the West

    I read Gregory Baum's 'Man Becoming' years ago and it was an amazing take on trinity which, for me, totally broadened the way to think and speak of God. The original idea of Trinity was meant to broaden the understanding of God, but once it became 'set doctrine' that was professed without understanding, it became a problem. Theologians, like Baum, opened it up again. I have to disagree (but see why you would say it) that it is polytheism and still supernatural theism. Baum writes about the Word that 'echoes' and calls through creation and, specifically, humanity to us: it calls, challenges, judges us and if heard leads to life. Examples, your mother yelling 'No' at the top of her lungs when you were a kid. Or 'eat your veggies,' 'don't hit your brother,' 'kiss your grandmother' and on and on. The word can also resonate in a book, a song, in conversation. His argument is that any of these occasions, take a book, can cause you to look at yourself in a new light, to reconsider something you had previously dismissed, to have a lightbulb go off (so to speak). You are judged, you are challenged, you 'hear' something - and you move forward, you become more. Or you ignore the possibility. The Word of God in the Bible presents a moment of chaos (think of Jesus and 'let he who is without sin cast the first stone."): listen and move one way, perhaps to reconsider, perhaps you become different from that point on - or ignore the Word, and lose yourself. Baum's argument is incarnational: the Word does not call from the sky, it is not divorced from humanity; the Word is ever-present, it is in, with and through creation/humanity calling us to be more, to Life. But imagine a conversation in which you are challenged to change, you can hear but to do something about it - takes courage. When you were corrected by your mother, when you were judged, told you were wrong when you did something as a kid, it was also your mother (representative of those people in your life) who hugged you and was 'with you' as you grew and faced life's challenges. The courage to respond to the Word, the courage to Be, to move forward, to own your life also is incarnational. Love empowers you, gives you the courage to respond - this is the Spirit (think about the 'stories' of the descend of the Spirit on the disciples and what they were able to do) ever- present 'in' creation. With Baum (and others) the modes or persons (old fashion term I really don't use much because it leads to confusion) of God are shown to be the furthest thing from theism: there is no god in the sky, God is in creation, the transcendent (simply More) in and through creation: creates, calls/challenges and encourages us to Live. I was so impressed by Baum when I first read him, I got the school to buy hundreds of his book as the text for seniors in a Catholic High School. High school kids reading what could have been used in an undergrad or even a grad level course. Some struggled to get their heads around it but others sat there, nodding their heads, saying, 'Of course, that makes sense." I would probably be excommunicated if I tried to do this today.
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