FireDragon76

Merton was drawing alot from Suzuki's take on Buddhism in trying to find analogies to speak to modern people. But in doing so, at times he has trouble speaking in a uniquely Christian way. It's sort of like how Paul Tillich's theology at times has little to do with the traditional symbols of the Christian faith, and more to do with existentialism. During Lent I made a practice of reading some Christian mystics, particularly Julian of Norwich. I found this lecture by Jonathan Freuhwirth, an Episcopalian and former monk, especially helpful in integrating the mystical/experiential and evangelical sides of the Christian faith. The dialectic is not between "true self / false self", but more like between suffering and compassion, expressed in Christianity as a dialectic between sin and grace.

I can't conceive of the notion of being a Christian without Jesus as a divine figure. I'm not into nailing down divinity too tightly (I am still a bit of a mystic at heart), but I think a basic idea of divinity is ultimate significance and ultimate meaning. Divinity is a political and social claim, as much as a spiritual or metaphysical claim. Indeed, that is exactly how the Jewish and Greek listeners in Jesus day would have understood his divinity. And Christianity is unapologetically particular in this respect in insisting that God's ultimate self-revelation is in a person. We are particular, concrete beings, after all- we are individual persons (at least that's how we think of ourselves in western culture, for the most part). How can God truly relate to us in any other way than the particular? So, I'm unapologetically in the "Jesus fan club". If other people find peace and a meaningful life elsewhere other than in Jesus, that's great for them... but I don't see that as particularly "Christian". Being a Christian is more than simply having morals or "being the best you possible". (Indeed, the Lutheran in me shudders at the idea of morality and the Gospel being confused). For me a great deal of my growth away from mysticism and vaguery happened due to realizing that western Christian tradition was not all bad, that it wasn't so broken, that the 60's was not the "Year Zero" of a brave new world. So I learned to appreciate the received western Christian tradition for its fruits in the focus on objectivity, justice, and the dignity of the individual.

After looking over the site, I think I will stick to the Debate and Dialogue section. I don't think the typical ELCA Lutheran fits the 8 Points laid out as a guideline for Progressive Christianity. It is possible to find more progressive Lutherans, but we are still very much a religion shaped by tradition and shared confessions. We are influenced by liberal mainline Protestantism, and share similar "tools" that are used, without actually being part of it fully.

I think this definition of a non-theistic Christianity is hard for me to wrap my head around as a Lutheran. It's sort of a non-sequitur for us. I guess the typical ELCA Lutheran doesn't fit easily with conservative evangelical protestants, but most of us have a "selective" liberalism and we are a bit more practical minded and not so introspective or mystical.

I think the appeal for many Christians is the possibility of continuity of relationships. It's not so individualistic as worrying about "where I go when I die". I see this particularly emphasized in the Orthodox Church and their communion with the departed through prayer and in the liturgy. But you can even hear it in classic Gospel music. It is a denial of the finality of death, not necessarily a denial of death itself. And for the early church, that was a definite emphasis as well. "Where oh Death is thy sting?"

The Sermon on the Mount is not about pragmatism or utilitarianism. Jesus isn't laying down a realistic political or social ethic.

Prayer is not magic. It's a dialogue or a petition. Focusing on manipulating a definite result in my mind draws away from that. It's also highly personal. There's nothing wrong with praying without knowing God's will. If it's lawful and desired, that is sufficient reason to pray. Intercessory prayer is not a dominant part of my prayer life as a Lutheran. It's not the be-all or end-all of ones spiritual life necessarily.

I notice your profile says you live in Central Florida. I live in east Orlando. The church I go to is Reformation ELCA, which is in the south downtown area.

It has been a long time since I posted on this site. I am a former Eastern Orthodox Christian that has been on a long religious journey. I was raised in Methodism, then became agnostic for many years. Then I practiced Buddhism for a few years. I went to a conservative Anglican church for many years before becoming an Eastern Orthodox catechumen, and this was the first religion I really felt I could call home. Sadly, my priest gave me a very hard time for years, and my parish was overall quite conservative and pietistic. I left the faith after I had a spiritual/mental health crisis and became searching. First at a conservative Episcopalian church, and then finally I found a small ELCA Lutheran congregation that I am now a member of. I would describe myself as not easily fitting into a particular religious box. Though I don't seem to get along well with conservative evangelicals, I would not describe myself necessarily as totally on board with Protestant liberalism, and of course my background is not Protestant. I'm not perfectly aligned with the "typical Lutheran", but it seems as close as I can get to a safe church that believes all the essentials, and they just don't seem like very judgmental people, though I find a surprising number of ELCA Lutherans that have a narrow religious perspective in their own way. They can be socially liberal but theologically very stuffy and wooden. Our church does have a conservative wing that is not insubstantial, as well. My own pastor is from that conservative confessional tradition though in my dialogues with him I have helped him broaden his perspective.

I have similar issues. I am formerly Eastern Orthodox (I left for pastoral reasons) and I just can't find a Protestant mainline church I fit into. Eastern Orthodoxy is hard to pidgeonhole as "conservative" or "liberal", because it comes from a completely different culture. I'm disabled and I've just never really identified with the surrounding culture, that's an issue too. IT was easy to be an outsider in Eastern Orthodoxy because I was among other outsiders. There is something very homogenous about most mainline Protestant churches that is not truly diverse, that reflects a lot of white, middle-class, liberal cultural values. Being "Nice" is valued way to much, and being "real" about life is actually one of those things not high on the list. And I know nothing about non-denoms or non-mainline churches to go "church shopping".

Hi. I'm not in agreement with all of your 8 Points but I also feel like I have no place on the internet to speak out. I live in a conservative Episcopal diocese, and I'm formerly an Orthodox catechumen and been struggling to find a church home as a Christian. Yet, I'm otherwise conservative ,from an Eastern Orthodox perspective. It angers me that the past and present bishops have all been outspoken in opposing gay rights. Yet politically I consider myself more of a libertarian and leftish politics of national churches alienates me too. Government is part of the problem, people telling other people how to live, what's best for them, and so on. I believe that Jesus was not an authoritarian, and indeed, government is just another empire tainted by the same frailty and sin that all humans are plagued with. I also don't agree with mainstream environmentalism. It's too much dominated by white, privileged elites. I wince sometimes listening to the Episcopalian litany where there is an environmentalist prayer, just because the rest of the litany is so deeply rooted in Christian tradition... except the final point. It just sounds like 1970's eco-religion (the Rite I equivalent is not so bad, it actually sounds much more compatible). So, my views as a Christian are so complicated that I don't feel I fit in anywhere. There are actually Christian forums that forbid a person to defend homosexuality, yet I believe the Bible is actually silent on the subject. It irritates me that certain sites don't allow us gay-affirming Christians to speak our minds on the issue. Not all Christians think gays are a problem that needs to be fixed.

Hi. I'm a 37 year old with Asperger's and I'm an ecclesial nomad. I was raised a nominal Methodist (I hardly ever prayed), but most of my life I've been agnostic but in my late 20's I had a spiritual awakening, started attending a conservative Anglican church, and eventually found my way into Eastern Orthodoxy. A funny thing happened, I started questioning a lot of things though, particularly some of the social conservativism of some of the attitudes in the Orthodox Church, especially among converts from the Evangelical community. I started rethinking the traditional teachings on sexuality, especially about attitudes many took towards the gay community. I talked to my priest, and while he was a sympathetic listener, he thought it best if I try to find a church that suited my liberal views better, without saying that I just couldn't be orthodox altogether. So I started attending other churches. I've been to Episcopalian churches off and on a few times in the past years, also attending some Independent Catholic parishes, but so far nothing has really grabbed hold of me like Eastern Orthodoxy. So now I'm a nomad. I'm very much alienated from a lot of the Protestant impulse found among Progressive Christians. And I'm not a Roman Catholic at heart, either, I figured that out fairly early into my journey into Eastern Orthodoxy.. I've been shaped a lot by very traditionalist kinds of Christianity that focus on liturgy and tradition... and it's hard to walk away from that. And while I am relatively liberal compared to a lot of evangelical Christians on some issues, politically I am not well represented, and tend to favor a non-liberal kind of conservativism more common than in Europe than the US, where government upholds traditional social institutions, and where individual rights are balanced by social obligations. So, now you know a lot about me... I'm looking for an internet forum where I have more freedom to discuss issues of concern without having to worry about offending the delicate sensibilities of largely conservative, evangelical protestant moderators.