PerpetualSeeker

CDWolfe, welcome! Looking forward to sharing thoughts with you!

I am 40 and learning from all of you. Now I see why one referred to me as "young folks".

Bill, I have arrived at a similar conclusion...we cannot arrive at an intellectual answer to God or Jesus. I am glad that I have stopped trying. Now I can spend my time pursuing useful things and enjoying what I can see of God. This one time in band camp I tried to attend a fundie university as I wanted to "learn scripture in depth" and liberal faiths sort of gloss over stuff. They would not let me in because I would not sign 100 percent agreement with their doctrine. Looks like I was down the wrong path anyway. Thanks for sharing, Bob

I always took the atonement to be about justice. Paul (the Apostle) talks about sin entering the Earth through one man and is conquered through one man..."the wages of sin is death" goes the story offered by the Apostle. The debt has to be paid because God cannot look upon sin nor can sinful beings be in His presence. To show He has infinite love for his children, God sends his Son, Jesus through the incarnation to live and pay the "ransom for many". As the parable goes, few would lay down their lives or the lives of their children for those they know, much less those they do not. I have to say that concept has always made complete sense to me with the exception of the fact that it is a "self licking ice cream cone". An omnipotent and omniscient God would know beforehand that we would fall and that a propitiatory sacrifice would be required. Jesus fulfills the sacrificial law given to the Jews. I think Jesus makes a big stir today by today's standards, but the truth is that in his day very few if any secular historians take note of him at all. Only the early church fathers talk about him. Almost as if he was a common criminal and heretic that was put to death by the Romans. If you think about it, he is either the Son of God or a complete lunatic for stating so. Not much middle ground based on the words that were placed in his mouth.

Works now...thank you.

Gardener, I found success professionally and even got the t-shirt to prove it! Strong education, good career, family, kids...you name it. Still not happy....ran the gamut of religions to no avail. There is no silver lining in my opinion. There is a God in my view, this place we call Earth is challenging and I think we learn so much along the way. My approach as of late is to focus on the learning value of whatever it is I am facing and not take life too personal. I am trying to learn to enjoy the moment each day and to stop focusing so much on the future or the past. Tolle explains this in his books, although I had a tough time staying focused when reading him. Essentially focus on past and future are futile, only the present matters. Like the above posters, I have found pleasure in simplicity and downsizing. At what I consider the peak of my life, I live in a one bedroom apartment with my wife, with my kids going to college and living in my home in the Pacific Northwest (I am military on assignment). I don't do much these days, but enjoy not having to blow tons of money on entertaining myself. Simplicity is beautiful. In my view there is something waiting for me on the other side...I will learn from this life and then move on. I wish you the best, Bob

Hello, when I attempt to adjust my email preferences such that I do not receive an email for every response posted I get an error in the browser and cannot change settings. Appreciate the help. Bob I click my name top right > My settings and that is the end of the line.

I like this approach and idea a lot!

That article confirms homosexual activity in animals, not homophobic activity . Did I miss ssomething?

I find it funny that popular belief holds that gays are automatically perverted and promiscuous. I am thinking they have tastes and preferences just like any other person and are not enraged with desire to the point of running around hitting on people! We fear what we do not understand. LOL! Just for the record I am a wholesale God guy here. I would rather spend my time enjoying God instead of trying to define him. The Tao te Ching states "the Tao that can be named is not the Tao". If you can put your finger on it, it is not God but just another part of the "world of the 10,000 things". Of so many creatures on Earth, why is it that only humans exhibit homophobic tendencies?

I think only Paul knew if he was a repressed gay male. I have to agree with the OP. Very sloppy indeed, enough to make me think twice about reading anymore of his books. I am open to any committed lifestyle choice someone practices, but to make a comment like that with no proof is a tad preposterous. I am not a fan of literary grasping at straws to find a way to support your point if the information is simply not in the cards (no relevant facts). Correct me if I am wrong but, Paul was a member of the Sanhedrin, was he not? Is not one of the requirements that he be married? Heck for that matter we could all be repressed gays and lesbians to some extent. Where do you draw the line? How do you know?

If we do not believe in something...we will fall for anything. I can't see a completely relativistic approach (what's OK for you is OK for you) working out in the end game. At the same time I would hold that no one is absolutely certain that he/she has the right rule book! Are there not universal concepts that all mankind can agree on? I think they are written upon the hearts of all humans. Some have simply fenced them out.

BillM, Bad things happen to good people, but this does not cancel the existence of God in my view. We are all here for a purpose in my worldview and while tragic as the loss of innocent life is, it creates ripples throughout the entirety of existence and forces changes both for good and bad. I do not believe in a "rose garden God". You take on a body and move through a period of preparation on this Earth in order to return to God in my view. Salvation, saving and the like are terms that I believe human beings use to attempt to describe a process of "improving one's lie" (as in golf if I spelled that right) with regard to the holiness and vibrational characteristics of God. As your holiness with reference to God increase you move closer. Decrease and you move farther away. We are no closer in my opinion of understanding God than people were in the time of Christ. As science helps us understand, we can draw a better picture of what God is not, but still understand that his laws control the universe, not the behavior of humans. Free will is just that and I believe the other side of the coin has dominion here, whatever you wish to call that (Satan, Baal, etc). Not a fire and brimstone guy myself. Also I have determined it unfruitful for me to blame God when bad things happen on Earth. I am not aware of an argument to the contrary in scripture anywhere where people that love God tiptoe through the tulips and die and go to heaven. Appreciate your thoughts...

Thanks, I get it now!

With some parts removed in Chrome

Works for me in Safari...et's try Chrome

I can't figure out how to use the quoting feature. Could someone kindly lend a hand in explaining? Much appreciated, Bob

Twenty years from now everyone will be wondering what all the fuss was about. - SteveS55 I believe you are correct. Like slavery and many other social woes, many will also find that they were on the wrong side of history.

Bill, Really enjoyed reading your post. Did not consider the persuasion of Gnosticism in the writing of John previously. Understand the goal of creating a "heaven on earth" where God's creatures live in harmony. Also agree that Revelations in written by a Jewish man for Jewish people. In my mind not an apocalyptic writing for today's reader. Near Death Experience stories are very prevalent today and while the flavor of the NDE is driven much by faith/belief background, people of all races and creeds are having them. In your belief structure, have you ruled out an afterlife or reincarnation possibly to learn lessons we missed along the way? Bob

Thank you for that NORM. I never knew that the OT had been rearranged, but it makes sense. I was aware of the NT arrangment, but have never studied them in chronological order (which is a little bit of a guessing game). Curious to know if it changes the flavor of the interpretation.

The OT patriarchs were known at times to argue with God, wrestle with God, and even display anger towards God. Strangely he did not hit them with a lightning bolt. The blasphemy concept in my mind is an OT carry over that was punishable by death in the time of Christ. As to the legitimacy of its inclusion in the text and literalness...writing a NT book would be like me trying to chronicle an exact account of the things I did in the 2nd grade with accuracy. And that is from my first person perspective, in many cases we did not even have that...not to mention copy errors, etc. Personally, I think you are safe in questioning God's existence and the existence of his "Spirit" in your journey. Even Mother Teresa had those moments.

soma, the more I study the biblical text, the more I am headed your way. I watched "Zeitgeist" this weekend on You Tube (2hrs but I recommend it). The first section is on biblical concepts followed by sections on politics, the financial system, and conspiracy theories (I could have skipped those). In short, it crushed me. It was a well put together explanation for much of the biblical writings and reasoning for why Christian holidays fall where they do. My fundamentalist upbringing had me hornswaggled. There is also a wonderful list of historians (about 30) during the time of Jesus and it is highlighted that NONE of them mention him. The Creation and Flood stories are equally crushed based on parallels from other like myth stories of the time.

Wish I was smarter on this Paul...I used to have a KJV bible that placed a star next to verses that it was believed fulfilled OT prophecy. As my memory serves me...in some cases a link COULD be made, however in others I remember it being way off base. What my study has revealed to me is that at the time of writing, the biblical authors were struggling to establish the legitimacy of Christ as the Messiah and might have purposely placed such references in the NT text to accomplish just that. At the time it was a Jewish book, written by Jews, for a primarily Jewish audience and these references would have been critical in establishing legitimacy for this audience. An internet search will most likely revel the more popular tables that cross-reference NT text to OT prophesies, they are pretty popular, I am just not sure how to attach an example to this post.

First, I wonder if a lot of this "indignation" originates from fear of the unknown or abstract. It is so comforting to say...my faith practice is right...I am right with God...I will have happiness in the afterlife. All fine and well until one from another group challenges that assumption and rips your tree house down. I think people are more comfortable with the concrete and have difficulty embracing pluralistic approaches to God, open ended belief systems, and admitting that we simply just do not know for sure. We all want to know for sure and I personally do not see that in the cards, though I continue to look for that answer . At the deepest levels, I think the indignation stems from fear of not being sure. Is it better to question your belief system and examine it regularly or stay in the corner and lash at any who would question it? Finally, questioning the establishment makes it feel incredibly uncomfortable. What better way to revive the emotions in a faith and solidify its members positions and loyalty to the establishment than a good we are right, they are wrong campaign? As an example, today as I drove to work, I listened to the Catholic Channel on Sirius. There are only three channels of the religious genre on Sirius so I swap out. The commentator attempted to tie Matthew 7:6 'Do not give dogs what is holy; and do not throw your pearls in front of pigs, or they may trample them and then turn on you and tear you to pieces (NIV) to allowing the political institution to slowly eat away at abortion, marriage, and other concepts the church holds dear such as the HHS mandate. This is an attempt to stir the Catholic religious into fervor so that they will respond politically and otherwise (they are holding the Fortnight of Freedom on the capitol at this very moment). Another fine example of a struggle to maintain relevance and bend scripture to suit whatever the cause needed. This passage, some scholars believe, is actually an admonition from Christ not to continue to waste your breath on people whose hearts have been hardened to the message you are trying to deliver. I am confident, Christ did not have abortion or gay rights to marriage in mind at the time.

Thank you for this read, I really enjoyed it.