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romansh last won the day on January 19

romansh had the most liked content!

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About romansh

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    In the woods, BC/USA border

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  1. romansh

    First Principles

    OK back tracking a little and hearing a lot of silent agreement 🙂 Assumptions I have to make 1 to 3 and 4 is a consequence. I exist and by extension, we exist as well. A universe exists beyond me (and us). That my (our) experience is a reflection of that universe, though our "reflections" might not be totally accurate or possibly complete Consequently we need to take our conclusions with possibly a pinch of salt. There seem to be three possibilities. The universe ticks to the beat of causality, it does not tick to causality or perhaps it is some combination. My interpretation of Joseph's two cents is the universe is more of a megalithic tock rather than ticks. For the moment I'll treat this as point 2 below. I really don't know how to tease the two apart or if it in deed matters at this stage. If causality is false we don't cause anything so consequently we are not in any sense responsible for any consequences of actions we take. If causality is true our actions are a result prior cause then we are responsible in the sense of proximate cause. Being morally responsible is a non sequitur because we could not have done otherwise.  If it some combination of the one and two does not seem to let us of the hook.  Lets look at 1 to 3 in slightly more detail. If the lack of cause is true, then our pride and joy are not warranted in that our child did not cause their success nor did we influence their success. So in summary if cause is false, we don't cause our actions, we don't help, hurt or insult other people, other people are not helped, hurt by us or in deed insulted by other people's actions. ie This lack of cause could be due to the universe coming into existence in a solid block, so to speak. Apparently some interpretations of General Relativity would be consistent with this view. I must admit I find this view does not seem to fit reality. We can't help asking ourselves what causes cause and effect to seem so real, of course this question is a non sequitur if cause is false. And is it a coincidence that our scientific explanations of the mechanics of existence seem to work? On a day to day basis we certainly are unaware of our underlying causality that lead to the bulk of our actions. We might be aware of somethings that have caused our emotions for example … But we don't choose to be happy in any normal sense of the word. We are completely oblivious to the underlying mechanisms (the ticks or the tock) on a moment to moment basis. Though we may have an general understanding that there are mechanistic causes are in place, if not the details. So if our child does well, the underlying causes stretch back in the causal mesh beyond a point where our child or us as parents are responsible. For example are we responsible for our child's intelligence? Well genetics certainly plays a small (at least). Is the child responsible for its genetics? Education also plays a small part in intelligence, is the child responsible for the quality of the teacher, class or her support at home? Well we might argue the child is responsible for the discipline she might exert on herself? Really? Again there is a genetic component to this plus the support she gets at home at school to exert this discipline. In short we can follow the causal mesh/chain and it ends up being luck … good or bad. If it is a mixture of one and two? Does not seem to help us much. Quantum phenomena can be seen as uncaused (inaccurately I think). The quantum phenomena itself simply becomes a cause itself (even though its probability of occurring is fashioned by the universe). So in 2 we might derive that existence is predetermined, and extremely uncomfortable position from some; but in case 3 it is not predetermined but things re not much better (or at least for those who are worried by such a universe). Here we seem to be "determined" and at the whim of some cosmic dice shaker. I'll stop here for the moment.
  2. romansh

    The Purpose of Life

    OK Burl … I really have no interest in this, but I went to Wiki anyway to understand what on Earth is actually an Apostolic Father … and still I really have little interest in this. According to Wiki: The Apostolic Fathers were Christian theologians who lived in the 1st and 2nd centuries AD, who are believed to have personally known some of the Twelve Apostles, or to have been significantly influenced by them.[1] OK fair enough. Cyril of Jesusalem … (c. 313[1] – 386 AD). Athnasius … (c. 296–298 – 2 May 373), Gregory of Nanzien: Gregory the Elder, or Gregory of Nazianzus the Elder, (c. 276 – 374) … OK with bit of prayerful imagination he meets the first part of the definition of Apostolic Father. Gregory of Nazianzus (c. 329[2] – 25 January 390) The wiki page names five of the Fathers, none of whom are the ones you listed? So where do we go from here? … They don't seem like Apostolic Fathers to me, but then I am not an expert on this like what you are.
  3. romansh

    The Purpose of Life

    Feel free to reveal the name of an Apostolic Father that meets the requirements. I look forward to this revelation.
  4. romansh

    The Purpose of Life

    You continue to play the man Burl. Frankly I don't care about my foundational or scriptural inadequacies. But I do care about how we treat others and how we formulate an argument. Paul was not asking for personal homilies, but was asking for a name of an Apostolic Father that you attribute to understanding the physical manifestation of the Kingdom of God as occurring at Pentecost. If you don't have one that is fine, no one will think the worse of you. But you continue to paint yourself into a corner Burl. I can recommend a couple of books on formulating arguments.
  5. romansh

    The Purpose of Life

    It would appear that you don't have the skill to tackle the ball Burl. Is this why you are going after the player?
  6. romansh

    The Purpose of Life

    It would seem that you don't differentiate between your bona fides and supporting a claim that you made. I have an SSF* in church history * Sunday School Failed But then it is not me that is not backing up my statements.
  7. romansh

    The Purpose of Life

    Well it would give me some confidence in the accuracy of your claim.
  8. romansh

    First Principles

    If they are illusions (not as they seem) then I can't say my pride is justified or warranted. Which in turn are a product of brain chemistry, which in turn is a product of our immediate and distant past environment. which in turn are a product of the cosmos. I don't think we are disagreeing here. All this is or seems fair enough … and to me seems to agree with pride is not warranted. We can focus on the subjectivity and end of the day pretty much any opinion (including ours) is subjective, this does not mean some opinions are not a more accurate reflection of reality than others. For example Burl's recent comment to Paul about spoon feeding to me seems to fall into this general category of self justification. Clearly self-justification is an illusion, and to be fair, at times we all fall prey to this. In terms of self-justification, excessive use of this behaviour is not conducive to self-preservation.
  9. romansh


    I wonder how this I believe, without doubt that God IS. is different from I know that God IS?
  10. romansh

    The Real Jesus

    This statement I think poisons the well a little bit. I personally cannot think of something that I need to be true. It is almost the reverse … the patterns point to something we might take as valid. This may well be an accurate depiction of the brain's capacity. Personally I have never seen a demonesque shape in a bonfire. Believing the faces and demons as real requires some specialized conditioning, I suspect. Quite possibly. That is why I am an agnostic. Or at least that is the confabulation I come up with. I am not sure who McRaney's quote was aimed at or to what point?
  11. romansh

    First Principles

    This is a bit of a straw man (I think) Joseph. I don't think anyone is arguing for "the" cause. Higher temperatures cause chemical reactions to speed up. Of course we have underlying causes for the temperature increasing, whether it be human or a star going supernova. We have proximate causes which we can use to predict (sometimes accurately) future events. I am not arguing against that existence is a mesh of causality. I don't think that follows Joseph. It boils down to luck. I am happy to retract the joy part … I may well be warranted to feel joy in my luck, put being proud of my luck will require some convincing from a rational point of view. Though to be fair a person who is oblivious to her luck may well feel pride (or guilt).
  12. romansh

    The Real Jesus

    If my brain abhors disorder it would do something about the its workshop.
  13. romansh

    The Real Jesus

    While I suspect it is an overstatement, things like the Dunning-Kruger effect seem to point some truth to the Russell quote. And it was not just the last century. "ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge." Charles Darwin "The fool doth think he is wise, but the wise man knows himself to be a fool." William Shalespeare "the wisest people know that they know nothing." Socrates (attributed by Plato).
  14. romansh

    The Purpose of Life

    Were these scribes accurate … did they add stuff to the scripture or did they omit? Likely both? Did they have an agenda? We have enough difficulty accurately interpreting/remembering what other members of this forum said (wrote) yesterday nevermind what was said ten years ago. My point is, we are trying to interpret words of Jesus that have been massaged over the decade(s) after his death … translation, agendas, misunderstanding, mis-recollection, subtle biases. Chinese whispers. Our memories are far from perfect.
  15. romansh

    The Purpose of Life

    Or perhaps it was later scribes putting words into his mouth. In that case what did they mean by it? Ten, twenty years after the fact were they being metaphorical or literal?