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romansh last won the day on October 2

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About romansh

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    In the woods, BC/USA border

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  1. Thanks for the reminder ... I have been going through a series of Peterson university lectures ... started at about number 18 got to the end and started back at 1 and am at #4. This is a timely reminder to get back on the treadmill. Not a fan of Jung. Really like Campbell though not that I agree with him that much. This is one of my favourite Campbell quotes ... I'll post it again:
  2. Decline of Christianity in the West

    Oh perhaps it was just faith?
  3. Decline of Christianity in the West

    Of course it may not be the fault of Jesus that he did not return within a generation. In that he may well have never made that prophecy. It could be that later scribes made that prediction on his behalf. If so what was the motivation of these later scribes? Or was it simply "Chinese" whispers in action? And yet today we try and paint a metaphorical reality on to approved translations of texts or at least some of them from two millennia ago.
  4. Decline of Christianity in the West

    That was the point ... even today people like Spong are taken as atheists as they do not have a literal belief. Did Spong and others start off with a literal belief? Is this metaphorical interpretation a post hoc belief? Was it for you? Personally I never had a literal Christian belief. Yes we all are to some degree indoctrinated in our beliefs ... I cannot choose to be a Buddhist at least not in this moment. But because of the new insights and better education fewer people have this desire for faith. It is difficult to be indoctrinated into faith when those around you are faithless. At university very few of my associates were religious and if they were it did not show. At work (in a science and engineering type world) there were fewer religious people so it was more difficult to pick up this religion meme. And finally they are not my points ... Those points were a distillation of what some religious scholars/investigators believe we can reliably ascribe to Jesus. There are a large handful. You can find the complete list here.
  5. Decline of Christianity in the West

    Why would Christianity decline in the West? Well if the literal beliefs that Jesus was the "Son of God" and at the end "He resurrected to sit at God's right hand" are no longer compulsory to be a Christian, then why bother taking them as a metaphor? People can go out and live their lives without developing a new interpretion (or another interpretation) of texts that stretch back two millennia or more. We have had new insights about the way the universe ticks in the last two thousand years, the majority of the people in the West have much improved educations and can reason for themselves. Of course some might reason they have a pretty good interpretation of the Christian texts. Perhaps they do. But then so what? It does not mean the ancient scribes were right. Otherwise, avoid rules and follow the truth you discover yourself. Act from awareness, not habit or convention. Don’t blindly repeat rituals. Don’t trust those with spiritual pretensions. Question those who presume to speak for God Apparently Jesus's words.
  6. Agnosticism

    This too is a belief statement about objective reality. Also my statement is a belief statement about objective reality. And onto infinite regress. It is not terribly helpful, I find, dismissing other people's as beliefs as beliefs Thormas; especially if they can bring corroborative evidence to the table with them.
  7. Agnosticism

    Welcome back from your travels Bill I agree with your assessment of agnosticism ... Here are Huxley's own words on the matter ... as he coined the term: Agnosticism is of the essence of science, whether ancient or modern. It simply means that a man shall not say he knows or believes that which he has no scientific grounds for professing to know or believe. Consequently, agnosticism puts aside not only the greater part of popular theology, but also the greater part of anti-theology. Now sure meanings change but this agrees with your view somewhat and it is in contrast to Thormas's point of view. And for Thormas I would point out the likes of Mark Vernon, who describes himself as an agnostic theist ... ie someone who cannot be sure god does exist but believes anyway. Either way agnosticism need not be simply relevant to god, but to how we approach life. Gods appear to come in two general flavours: Theistic (personal) or deistic (impersonal) in character. And as an aside many modern atheists describe themselves simply as someone who does not believe in god. ie a negative belief in the philosophical sense as opposed to someone who believes god does not exist. ie the positive belief.
  8. Agnosticism

    Yep ... some of the stardust configures into some parasites too. Yep that is love too.
  9. Agnosticism

    And why limit it to acorns ... star dust becoming an oak?
  10. Agnosticism

    Burl, the only teleology I am aware of are the confabulations of humankind. An example of this physical teleology please?
  11. Agnosticism

    Determined in the sense cause and effect result in the acorn growing into an oak or not. Cause and effect will also determine what natures, if any, we will grow into.
  12. Agnosticism

    Teleology is explaining things by purpose. The purpose of an acorn is to grow into an oak. For some teleology is a nonsense, in that humans think they have it therefore other junks of the universe have it too.
  13. Agnosticism

    You are right not necessarily predetermined ... in that I don't know or can't be absolutely certain. Having said that, I am certain as I can be, fundamental life is determined. It is almost a definitional thing. But this is a different thread.
  14. Joseph While I can't immediately put my finger on it, I think there are some major differences between my waking perception and dreams in general. But end of the day as I think you are suggesting both are products of past experience, chemistry and genetics etc. The largest difference I think is the immediacy of my waking perception ... it stretches back just a couple seconds, though it does draw on historical events from my local past and evolutionary past. Whereas dreams by and large draw on almost forgotten pasts if not forgotten ones. Dreams at least for me are of little sense to me. Tough to remember and generally rapidly gone. Dreams and waking perception are both of the universe unfolding. I can't help but be reminded of a tom Clancy quote" The difference between reality and fiction? Fiction has to make sense. For me my waking perception (of reality) makes more sense than my dreams.
  15. For me losing the life quote, I interpret as understanding an intrinsic self is an illusion and moving on from there. What the ancient scribes meant by this, I don't know. And where did it come from and was it borrowed from some earlier Eastern tradition, again, I don't know.