Raven

Everyone's journey is different, and what you need and want may not be the needs and wants of other people. I think it's great that you're willing to step back, think for yourself, and allow yourself the space to do what you need to do. Sending you lots of good thoughts!

There are some really interesting points here. Allow me add a couple of other (maybe not interesting) points: I think we are (often) more likely to help those we know vs. a stranger because of the construct of the Other. We don't know know who this Other might be. We don't know what they are, we don't know what their values are, what their relationships are, what their expectations are. We can't predict their behaviour and/or responses to our assistance. Different cultures, religions, races - the Other can be dangerous, at least to some. When we help out someone we know, there is a fluid exchange of values. They are part of our community, and therefore, part of ourselves. We automatically help ourselves. Also, by investing in our communities, we reap the benefits. Truthfully, I don't think this is as selfish as it sounds. I give back to the community because I live in this neighbourhood, and I want to live in a nice neighbourhood. I want my family to live in a nice neighbourhood. If I one day have children, I want the neighbourhood to be good and safe for them, as well. It's not to say that I wouldn't want those things for other people's kids, but I think there is some sort of natural, intrinsic aspect to our wiring that causes us to look out for our own. (Biological destiny, I would assume.) We had a discussion the other night (church social get-together) about the difference between taking a bullet for a loved and and for a stranger. I would love to say that I would take a bullet for a stranger as easily as I would a loved one, but that's simply not true. Self-preservation is an important part of us all - without it, what would compell us to look both ways before we cross the street? In the same vein, it is natural to look after the ones we know and love first, because they matter to us. Strangers maybe don't matter any less, but they certainly don't matter the same. It would be nice if we could right all the wrongs around the world, but we can't. I don't personally have the resources to do everything for everyone, no matter how much I would like. What I *can* do is see where I can be useful, and make my choices. I can also hope and pray that everyone else does the same. If everyone were able and willing to help even one person, things would look a lot different out there.

You have the freedom of speech, but also the responsibility of it. You can say what you want, but the cost is on you. At least, that's how I've always interpreted it. I have to wonder - by "American values," does he mean "Christian values"? Is it an implication that Christians are automatically Islamaphobic (or at least anti-Islamic)?

Dutch - you mean actually sit down as a family and talk about things? And listen to what people have to say? Crazy! We always, always had dinner as a family...at the table, looking at one another, not staring at the tv. Our parents heard all about what was going on - in the classroom, at recess, who said what, and so on. George - the father seems mostly concerned about issues relating to family, marriage, and sexuality. Canada's education policies don't allow for discrimination in the classroom, so discussions about sexuality and family would include talking about homosexuality, single parenthood, STDs, condom use, and so forth. I think the whole thing is crazy. As a teacher, you have no way of anticipating what's going to go on in your classroom 100% of the time. Your lesson plans are one thing - what students decide to ask about/talk about is something else. The bigger point, for me, is that I don't understand this idea of barring kids from learning about the outside world. Whether or not their family agrees with same-sex marriage, for example, doesn't stop it from happening.

My dip in the fundy pool was very, very brief. However, it was not so brief that I don't have a couple things I regret... - I regret not speaking out more against the hate I heard - I regret the couple of times that I crossed the line when trying to witness to people The fundy community can be so harmful. It's unfortunate, because they can make everyone else who identifies as Christian look bad.

http://www.torontosun.com/2012/09/10/dad-says-hamilton-school-board-not-supporting-christian-beliefs This is a story that's been buzzing around the GTA since yesterday. Here is the link, but in case it doesn't work, a quick synopsis: A man, who is Greek Orthodox, is upset that the school board will not agree to advise him ahead of time if topics are going to arise in the classroom that clash with his family's GO faith. (Topics such as marriage, sexuality, family structure, etc.) Part of his argument is that people of other faiths have been allowed considerations, so why not his family? It's an interesting debate. I'll withhold my own ideas until later. By the way - check out some of the 300+ comments after the story - wow. O.o

Yvonne, Thanks for this post. It's interesting to me, given what I have endured this week with my super-fundy relatives visiting. Talk about wanting to stop the smiling! Yikes! I think there is a time and place for it. I think there's nothing wrong with letting people ramble on if they're not hurting anything. However, if someone is getting in your face, or causing harm to you or to other people, then standing by and saying nothing out of fear of being offensive does nothing. One of my favourite teachers in high school had a poster on the wall that said, "To sin by silence when we should protest makes cowards out of men." (I forget whose quote that is. Jefferson? Maybe?) I think this concept can be applied, with care, at correct instances. For example - I wouldn't ever go out of my way to tell my fundy relatives what I think of their interpretations and the way they live. They have the right to live as they choose, same as me. However, if they ever step foot in our home and start telling us that we're going to hell, or that we're sinners, or whatever, there will be no shut and smile - only shut the door. There's polite, and then there's too polite - and that's coming from a Canadian, by the way. For the most part, I believe in and support political correctness; sometimes I feel like it's gone too far though. "Live and let live" only works if people actually let each other live. I don't care what other people do, as long as it isn't harmful. (Of course, defining "harmful" in a way that pleases everyone is a great way to get into trouble, but that's my two cents on it.)

As a Canadian, I don't get to vote in American elections, but for my two cents, I hope and pray that Obama gets re-elected. I hate to think what will happen to the US if Romney gets in.

Neon, you make an excellent point. The right wing doesn't want the "right" to pray in school - they have that already. What they want is the right to shove their interpretations of the "WOG" down everyone's throats, regardless of other people's faiths, believes, or lackthereof. It's important for religion to be taught in school, I think, but as a social studies topic, not as an attempt to convert anyone to anything. I grew up in a really, really multicultural area, and so our school was filled with students from all over the world. It was awesome. We learned about different styles of government, different histories, and yes, different religions - no one religion was given more time than another, and everyone walked away with new knowledge. It was really interesting, and I remembering enjoying those lessons a lot. The problem, as I see it as an outsider looking in, is that these right wing people want Christianity/creationism/Bible taught in schools, but not anyone else's faiths. You can't have it both way, folks. It won't work. If parents really want their kids to have a genuine "Christian education" (whatever that means) why not send them to a private Christian school?

Joseph and Paul - that's exactly what my mother and brother said when we discussed it among ourselves yesterday. My aunt and uncle live in this bubble world where everyone with whom they interact is either just like them, or a sinner - those are the only choices. They've made a life for themselves of getting in people's faces and saving them, and I do think they honest think they're doing the right thing. It's so frustrating sometimes. I find myself more frustrated now than I was a few years ago. As an adult, living my life my way, I refuse to explain myself or apologise for my choices - and it just makes them crazy. Joseph - J definitely handled it well, and didn't let it ruffle him. I think he found the whole thing a little bit amusing, but also of course a huge pain in the you-know-what, as we were simply trying to enjoy some family time. Yeesh. It's such a shame, because with any other topic of discussion (save politics, because they HATE Obama, as well...) they're interesting and fun people. One time, other members from this same branch gave my parents the "sit down" - in their own home, no less - and basically told them that if they don't get saved/born again/etc that "we won't see you in Heaven." My response, upon hearing this story later, was "Fine with me - who'd want to spend eternity with people like that?!"

Ugh Yvonne, I know exactly what you mean. It's not just the religion, it's that religion and politics (for some) are so interwoven. The last time members of this family came (cousins instead of the aunt and uncle) we got to have dinner while they went on and on about how Obama is a "secret Muslim" and Sarah Palin is "one fine lady." Oy vey. I am really afraid that one of these days I'm going to just snap. Out of respect for my parents, and out of a desire for family harmony, I tend more toward bean-dipping than anything else - but how much is a person expected to take. Had this gone on in our home, as opposed to my parents' home, perhaps I would have felt like I had more of a leg to stand on? Maybe, but I don't know. My aunt is a scary woman. Good-hearted, but scary. Good for you for standing up to your friend. I can't believe how some people just don't get it. Throw out the actual conversation content for a moment, and think about this: what kind of person subjects a conversation partner to a dialogue they don't want? I was always taught it doesn't matter what you're talking about - you have a social obligation to participate in "conversations," not "lectures/sermons." To hijack a conversation and get in someone's face - regardless of the actual topic - is just poor manners. Throw in politics and attempts to shame/convert, and Miss Manners would need her smelling salts.

Dutch - just because a person means well doesn't mean they do well; that's the conclusion I've come to. I saw a picture on facebook the other day and it said something like, "I can see that your heart's in the right place, but your head is up your a**." It made me laugh a little, because we all know people like that. My aunt and uncle seriously and truly believe that what they are doing is the right thing. However, it's not like they don't know us, don't know how we live our lives, what we believe in, etc. They know - they simply think it's wrong and think they have the right to call us on it. If I ever turned back on them and called them out for their ungracious houseguest behaviour, they would be mortified - and would probably miss the point altogether. That whole "do unto others" thing just goes right over their heads. My aunt told me that she often hides my facebook updates from her newsfeed because she doesn't agree with some things I post - I told her that doesn't bother me, and we all have the right to our opinions. But that doesn't stop her (and him) from trying to beat us over the head with their views, which is pretty hypocritical. I suppose it's like anything else. You go on a miracle diet and lose 100 pounds, and you can't stop talking about it - why can't people understand how excited you are?! If they would just follow the same path you've taken, they could live a whole new, skinny life. It's so easy! They just need someone to show them the right way! *facepalm*

I think it's *possible* to separate religion and politics, to answer your initial question, George - not everyone gets their morals and values from a religious institution. To say that everyone must is to deny the many, many athiests out there who have what most would consider "good" morals and values: not stealing, lying, murdering, raping; looking after others; helping each other; being a positive member of society, and so on. I think it's interesting (and strange) how big a role religion plays in American politics. It seems like something so private to me. It seems negative, I think; these candidates use their religious beliefs to attack the religious beliefs their opponents, which seems to be the opposite of what God would intend. Mud-slinging isn't very Christian, and everyone is guilty of it.

Thanks George. That's actually what my uncle said last night at one point: "I owe it to the Lord to tell you this and ask you this...." yeesh. I've seen him try to witness to servers in restaurants - while they're working! Awkward! The part that irritates me the most about this, really, is they do this while being guests in my parents' home (and the home I grew up in - so my home too on many visits over the years). How do you do that? How do you stay in someone's home - eat their food, use their washer/dryer, take up their time, stay in their guest room - and then do that? It just seems so completely bizarre to me. If J and I went to see them, for example, we would not expect to share a room (we are unmarried but live together) or drink alcohol in their home. We would respect their preferences and behave as guests. But they, on the other hand, just come in and stir up trouble. My parents are the only ones they stay with, because frankly, they're the only ones who will have them. That sounds mean, but they've burned a lot of bridges.

I've probably mentioned on this board somewhere already, that a branch of my family are southern, Evangelical Baptist missionaries. Their visits are always pleasant enough on the surface, but horribly awkward and anxiety-inducing deep down. My aunt and uncle, who were the ones who started the whole missionary thing in our family, are staying with my parents for a few days. (They are in their eighties now and have "retired" to the US.) They have long believed (and made no secret about it) that we need saving, and they pretty much hate the way we live our lives. Anyway - J (my bf) and I went for dinner last night, as my mother had invited us, and I genuinely enjoy seeing them, as long as we stay away from religion and politics. It was J' s first time meeting them, though I had thoroughly prepped him. Dinner was pleasant enough - we got caught up on family news, saw some photos, etc...really, quite nice. Then after dinner, I went to the kitchen to help my mother sort out the dishes and so on, and returned to fine my uncle had cornered J and was pressing him about his religious ties, his beliefs, whether or not he felt certain he would go to heaven...you know, the "Have you accepted Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour" schtick. So awkward. I will give J full points here for actually politely hanging in there - answering honestly without encouraging too much conversation. I, on the other hand, was mortified and I announced we were leaving. It was very, very awkward, and though I retained a cheerful tone and bright smile, my aunt and uncle know exactly why we left. It was so frustrating. I'm especially frustrating because my brother dated his now-wife for 10 years, and they have never, ever asked her about her religious beliefs, etc. I really did not think that would happen to J, and yet it did. I'm just glad we were at my parents' place instead of our own, so at least we could leave. I'm supposed to go over this afternoon for tea (my mother needs a buffer, and I don't want to leave her hanging) and am just trying really hard to rally myself and let last night go...but it will likely be more of the same. In someone else's home, I don't feel comfortable being confrontational, so of course I'm feeling some stress. At the same time, this could very well be the last time they come up here, so I don't want to not see them, and miss out on spending time with them. (Again - when the topics are neutral, my aunt and uncle are lots of fun.) There's not really a question here - it's just a rant, I guess. It angers me that people think they have the right to label others, or determine people's worthiness. J and I both consider ourselves Christians, but in my aunt and uncle's perspective, we definitely are not. That would be fine, if they would shut up about it. I came home in such a bother last night, like really riled up. I am so sick of them coming up here and looking down on us. Keep in mind, this branch of the family has many people in it, so it's not like my aunt and uncle are the only ones we see - there are more. And like my aunt and uncle, it's a great time until we have to talk about Jesus - their way, so they can enlighten us about where we're going wrong and remind us we probably aren't going to heaven. I hope everyone is having a better morning than I am!!!

Rayodeluz, You make a good point. Like my auntie J always says, "Everything in moderation (including moderation)." Things do often exist in shades of gray. A glass of wine is not a problem (to me), but for someone who cannot control themselves, it would be a problem for them. It's important to think things through, and to understand why you're doing what you're doing.

Patriotism isn't a bad idea in itself, but I think you should be well-informed. No country is perfect, Loving your country doesn't mean being blind to its problems or short-comings. As a Canadian, I feel a lot of patriotism for my country. I love my country and I love my life here. However, Canada has some issues, and there are things happening that I don't agree with. It doesn't make me less patriotic, but it does keep my eyes open. Speaking as an outsider, I think the stereotype of the super-duper-patriotic American is annoying. Often that stereotype shows Americans to be gun-toting, xenophobic egomaniacs - and my experiences travelling in the US and having friends and family who live there have been the complete opposite. I think pictures like the one Yvonne posted are irritating, as they both a) make Americans look conceited and disrespectful (which hasn't generally been my experiences) and seek to display other countries as being weaker, second-rate, etc. The funny thing is, it's kind of a vicious cycle. SuperAmerica propaganda is annoying to people in other countries, which makes people in other countries have a negative view of SuperAmericans. That negative view gets spun by SuperAmerican to fuel the fires of xenophobia and the need to conquer and control, which leads to photos like the one Yvonne posted. The phone is annoying to people in other countries, which makes peopl ein other countries have a negative view ... and so on and so forth. I have a couple of family members who do fall into the "SuperAmerican" category, and in all honesty, I find them completely irritating. (Especially when they visit and still have to tell us how much better their country is than ours. Seriously - stop coming over then.) Again, to reiterate so no one is offended - I do believe the majority of American people are normal, every day people who love their country but aren't idiots about it. The rest make everyone else look bad. And no, this isn't just an American thing. Every country has SuperCitizens who should just stop talking. The difference is that American publications are *everywhere* so it seems overwhelming sometimes. (Why is your president on half of our channels? We don't even watch our own political leaders that much! Though granted, your electoral system is definitely more entertaining!)

The word "right" pretty much always scares me. What's "right" for one is not automatically "right" for another. What does it mean to raise your kids "right"? What does it mean if you're living your life the "right" way? It depends on who you are, what you come from, what kind of way you look at the world, and so on. I think one of my biggest issues with "the church" (yeah, yeah I know) is that by claiming to have the "right" ideas and the "right" way of doing things, they create an us vs. them mentality. It's very exclusive, and doesn't allow for questions, changing with the times, or different perspectives. Eventually, we all must do what we think is right. How you decide that is individual, I guess, or at least it will vary. Yvonne, that didn't answer your question at all. I'm a total highjacker, sorry about that! I've been working since early this morning and I guess my brain is working overdrive. To answer-ish your question: I think it's better to do the right thing than sit around and yap about it.

For me, there is no "one thing," but rather a few small, or small-ish things, rolled together. Things like: - I don't have to convince anyone of anything - No one has to convince me of anything - No one gets to define my faith for me or put labels on what I believe (or don't) - I don't have to associate with people if I find their views repugnant. Two people using the term "Christian" does not imply having things in common. - There's more to learn than I probably ever could, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't try

Thanks Dutch. Internet safety is so important. I hate that there are people out there with nothing better to do than attack people through their computers. Why can't they put their tech abilities to use for some good instead?!

I'm not American, so I plead ignorance to some of the nitty-gritty points of law. As a Canadian, I have not grown up in the same type of "gun culture" some (like me) may argue seems to be so overwhelming in American culture. It's not impossible to get a gun in Canada (legally) but you do have to jump through a lot of hoops, and you cannot just carry around with you in your pocket. No one is carrying a gun "for protection" to the grocery store, to a non-gun-requiring job, or to pick up their kids from school. The common public Canadian citizen is not carrying a gun on their person when you walk by them on the street. I like that. Criminals and thugs are, of course, potentially carrying guns and other assorted weapons. I definitely do not like this. Our beautiful city has seen way too much blood already this summer, because of gangs (and wannabe gangs) with guns. Little kids are getting killed. Old folks are terrorized. It's a nightmare and it breaks my heart. Gun make kids feel like grown ups, and grown ups feel like cowboys. The average Joe Citizen does not have the skill or training to use their gun properly to defend themselves or handle these types of situations. I feel very certain that had someone in the Colorado theatre tried to "take out" the gunman, even more people would have been shot and possibly killed. This is modern society, not the OK Corral. A person with a gun feels powerful, invincible, when in truth they're still just human...except now they're a human with a gun. This is not a good idea. Thugs will always have guns - there is no way around that. But if guns are the problem, how can more guns be the solution? It's not like the US *doesn't* have a gang problem. It's not like the good folks with their licensed handguns are wiping out the problem. There is absolutely NO reason in my mind why a regular, city-dwelling person should have a gun. (Yes, cars kill people sometimes - but they are manufactured for a different person. The ONLY reason a gun is manufactured is to kill, period.) We've had too many deaths lately, not even counting the victims of Colorado. Too much violence, too much blood, too many lives snuffed out. Yes, knives and baseball bats are dangerous too - but they don't do the same type of damage a gun does. I wish everyone would just put down their guns. I'm so sick of guns.

*adds some cranberry and a hint of lime to proffered vodka* Cheers! I've actually been awol myself, so I suppose I can't really answer your question. However, I'm always up for a nice drink.

Thanks, Soma. You're right - life is exactly the way it's supposed to be, trials and all. I suppose we really learn more from the tough times than the easy times.

I'm off to camp, so I hope everyone has a great weekend! (I also hope we have beautiful weather, but ... well we'll see.) Be safe everyone - see ya Monday! Raven

I can see the points you're making Paul, but I respectfually disagree. Allowing the government to wander into the churches and make demands seems a bit dangerous to me. I prefer the idea that the two never meet, personally. Marriage - that's ALL marriage - should be a matter of the government, not the matter of the church. Let everyone have a "civil marriage." Then, if the couple wishes to also have a church ceremony, let that be at the discretion of the church. As for the point about members-only marriages, some churches already do this, and I don't think it's a terrible idea. My cousins live in Venezuela, where church-only marriages are not recognized by the government. Everyone gets a civil ceremony, which is performed by a JP, and then if they choose, they can have a church ceremony as well. This seems like a good idea to me. Paul, your comment about racism doesn't really ring true though - I wish it did, but I don't think it does. There are plenty of church that still teach racism and sexism, besides homophobia. You can't regulate what a church teaches its people. I absolutely think the churches need to come out of the dark ages and embrace an open concept, but that's different from trying legislate them into performing same-sex marriages. Making them do it against their will only serves to stoke the fires. Fundy churches already cry persecution too much, imo. I hate some of the things that they teach, but they have the right to do so. As long as they aren't specifically saying to go out and commit crimes against other people (like a hate crime) I think they're in the clear.... disgusting, but in the clear.