PaulS

"Twenty years from now everyone will be wondering what all the fuss was about". I suspect you're right, Steve.

It's reported in Australia this morning that there has been significant ground made overnight in the US concerning gay marriage: CHANTS of "USA! USA! USA!" erupted outside the US Supreme Court overnight as the court handed two major victories to advocates of gay marriage. The two rulings said same-sex couples should get the same federal benefits as heterosexual couples and cleared the way for the resumption of same-sex marriages in California. The rulings do not mean that gay marriage will be permitted throughout the US; most states still ban it. But they build on the momentum of the gay rights movement in America, with President Barack Obama and a host of celebrities advocating for gay rights. "The laws of our land are catching up to the fundamental truth that millions of Americans hold in our hearts: when all Americans are treated as equal, no matter who they are or whom they love, we are all more free," Mr Obama said. - See more at: http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/world/brekkie-wrap-key-victory-for-gay-marriage-in-us-the-worlds-take-on-rudd-and-gillard/story-fnhrvhol-1226670549391#sthash.vweX7S66.dpuf

I was being a tad lazy - didn't want to have to troll through all the pro-"fulfilment of prophecy" sites to find the one or two that may represent an unbiased point of view! I understand the references to Jesus as prophecy fulfilled, pretty much the same as you - scripture used to try and connect Jesus to ancient Judaism, not a literal fulfilment in actuality.

There is much biblical scholarship today that demonstrates most, if not all, so called references to Jesus 'fulfilling' prophecy described in the Hebrew Bible, are actually no such prophecy of Jesus, but are statements/stories relating to other definitive events/people. Does anybody know of any Hebrew Bible texts that do refer explicitly to a Messiah, and not somebody/something else, which Christians do/can use to demonstrate the fulfilling of prophecy by the birth & existence of Jesus of Nazareth? Cheers Paul

I think there is an element of truth, but I think this tendency can be extended beyond religion - I'm thinking politics, sports teams, certain clubs, etc. In fact, perhaps it's just the grouping of persons together with like belief and rules itself, that then facilitates this "I'm right, you're wrong" defensiveness.

Welcome Bob, Looking forward to your participation and contributions here. All the best. Cheers Paul

Wow, hadn't heard the Caesar/Cleopatra/Jesus connection before! I doubt it has any substance, but hey, who knows! The concept that Jesus didn't actually even exist as a person is not new either actually. Paul, who is the earliest recorded writer of Jesus-related matter admits that he never met Jesus in real life, and the 'eye-witness' Gospels are all hearsay (i.e. it is only others saying what Jesus allegedly said). With no records made by Jesus and no external records acknowledging Jesus*, it could be quite possible the man Jesus never existed or never existed in the fashion so described. I've recently read that Christianity had no more than about 3,000 followers within the first 50 years after Jesus' death which does seem pretty small. Almost as though it didn't 'catch on' because he never really existed as a person, but then 40 or 50 years later when the Gospels get written it starts to develop and grow, almost myth-like. *There is Josephus' account which is reported as this: "Josephus Flavius, the Jewish historian, lived as the earliest non-Christian who mentions a Jesus. Although many scholars think that Josephus' short accounts of Jesus (in Antiquities) came from interpolations perpetrated by a later Church father (most likely, Eusebius), Josephus' birth in 37 C.E. (well after the alleged crucifixion of Jesus), puts him out of range of an eyewitness account. Moreover, he wrote Antiquities in 93 C.E., after the first gospels got written! Therefore, even if his accounts about Jesus came from his hand, his information could only serve as hearsay.

Not too deep, NiteWatchman, in fact very interesting. I'm probably more aligned with your thoughts than we both identify. I too 'think' that there may be 'something to all this' but don't know/have the missing piece. That doesn't concern me too much, I just find it interesting. I am much better at describing what I don't believe than capturing what I do. I rest easy these days knowing that really this has been an ongoing journey for humankind, and it is yet to be conclusively settled. I think that says something. I do believe others here and elsewhere have had genuine experiences which they call God. I just don't know what that means for me. Que sera sera. Cheers Paul

Welcome NiteWatchman, This site welcomes anybody who is respectful of other people's beliefs, even those who believe there is no God! I myself am a fence sitter - I was raised fundamental Christian but those beliefs rapidly fell apart when I joined the police force at 18 and was exposed to a side of humanity I had never experienced. Since then I have been, well I don't know exactly what I have been. At first I was angry with God, then I said I didn't believe in God but thought there might be something spiritual to our lives. A few years ago (20 or so years after I rejected my Christian upbringing) I went through a bit of anxiety started by this global financial crisis, and at a weak moment a friend reintroduced my Christianity of old and I experienced 9 months of absolute Hell, questioning if I was headed for there. Yet I still couldn't change what I believed (or didn't believe more to the point). During this process I discovered the likes of Spong, Borg, and this website, which reignited my curiosity about there being something spiritual to our lives, but not the God I had been brought up to believe in (I can honestly say that God makes no sense to me). I am still agnostic/atheist, but I do think that a lot of what Jesus is attributed as saying as a way to lead one's life, does make sense (as do the teachings of many others greats). Spong's saying of 'living full & loving wastefully' makes so much more sense that admitting you're a dirty rotten sinner who needs to be forgiven by accepting Jesus' blood as a sacrifice and if you don't then it's off to eternal torment for you! I too also wonder about the driving force for life - as Spong also talks about - there is something that makes all life try to 'live'. Maybe that is God? Like you, I think life should be more about how you live it, not what you believe just to ensure that when you die you go to a better place. I think if the focus was more on making THIS a better place, then there literally could be a Heaven on earth or dare I say as Jesus had suggested, the Kingdom of God could be here, now. Anyway, it's you're introduction that I am hijacking here. Welcome, and I look forward to your participation and discussion of topics. Cheers Paul

I guess anything's possible but if the biblical account of the Romans stabbing Jesus in the side is true, I can't imagine him surviving. This was after all an execution - the Romans were pretty good at these! Also, the stone seems to have been put there to prevent unauthorised entry, so I don't expect one man to be able to push it aside. I suspect the growth of religions that resembled Jesus' teachings was a product of the developing mindsets around that time influenced by a number of teachers as well as Jesus, although I think Jesus did have a spectacular impact. Just my thoughts.

Indeed MOW. Here is the structure of the Hebrew Bible: Torah Genesis Exodus Leviticus Numbers Deuteronomy Prophets Joshua Judges 1 Samuel 2 Samuel 1 Kings 2 Kings Isaiah Jeremiah Ezekiel Hosea Joel Amos Obadiah Jonah Micah Nahum Habakkuk Zephaniah Haggai Zechariah Malachi Writings Psalms Proverbs Job Song of Solomon Ruth Lamentations Ecclesiastes Esther Daniel Ezra Nehemiah 1 Chronicles 2 Chronicles

Welcome Steve, Marcus Borg wrote a little coffee table book comparing the sayings of Jesus with the sayings of Buddah. I think both of these men spoke great truths which have been buried by the human nature to complicate things! "This is my simple religion. There is no need for temples; no need for complicated philosophy. Our own brain, our own heart is our temple; the philosophy is kindness". - Dalai Lama I hope you enjoy participating here Steve. Cheers Paul

I have similar thoughts Rhino. I feel my Mum's in that boat - it's as though she's itching to be proved 'right' one day. Her response to people who don't 'believe' in Jesus is "they'll find out one day!". It's almost as if she's itching to be proved right! In the meantime, she has no real interest in improving this world, increasing peace, or even doing much for others really.

Interesting. I was thinking along the lines that they're the beast in you, the animal that eats its own, which you can make bow down before you if you so choose. I guess that's art for ya!

Welcome William, I hope you enjoy participating here. There's lots an lots in those old discussion threads, and lots more to come I'm sure, as we all continue our own 'quest'. Cheers Paul

What did you make of the aurochs and them kneeling down to her?

Johnny, Have just finished watching it tonight. I really enjoyed it. I didn't read anything about it first, other than it was about a young girl living with a father who has a temper & who was ill. So I didn't know what to expect and certainly the aurochs threw me a bit, but overall I liked the experience of it. I liked the simplicity and connectedness of living in such a community, but with the father sometimes being aggressive I couldn't help but think of worse places such as those portrayed in Deliverance, even though there was nothing else in that vein. You? Paul

Welcome Teddi, My 8yr old son attends a relatively passive Anglican (episcopal) school and has already decided God and Jesus are not real. Funnily, I don't want him to be exposed or be encouraged at all by evangelical, fundamental Christianity, but I don't want him to write off spirituality altogether either! I guess his own life experiences will talk to him as he goes along. I hope you enjoy participating here. Cheers Paul

Sean, You are most welcome here. All of us carry baggage of one kind or another. It's always thrilling for me to read of other people joining here so that they can share, where otherwise they wouldn't be able to. I am glad that so many of us are receiving healing of sorts. I hope you enjoy participating here. Cheers Paul

The 'Jesus-cult' has overtaken Jesus' message so to speak, Don?

I thought Bill Gates was meant to be the anti-Christ? It would be funny if it wasn't so sad, that some people feel they are in the end times and that they are actively looking for somebody to fulfil their interpretation of scripture, just so that we can all be decimated to bring an 'end' to the story of humankind on earth.

Welcome Luvtosew, Congratulations on being prepared to follow through on what must have been a very hard reality to learn. I hope you enjoy sharing and questioning here. Cheers Paul

The only thing missing was actually calling Obama the Antichrist! I would have thought that God could be regarded as the ultimate socialist!

I enjoy reading Spong - he has an easy reading style and is a breath of fresh air in many ways. Why Christianity Must Change Or Die was my latest read of his, but I would recommend any of his books. I'm looking forward to reading his book on John (the 4th gospel) which is currently in pre-release. I also value Marcus Borg. He and Spong share similar views but Borg adds an academic element which I think Spong lacks a bit. Spong's a priest whereas Borg was a Minister and is a renowned biblical scholar. I've just finished reading Borg's Speaking Christian and am currently reading his Evolution of the Word. I find learning about the historical context and meaning of scripture (when it was written) gives me a new appreciation for it.

This is where I would expand my above-listed thoughts about people just admitting they don't 'know' for certain what/who God is. Of course many people are convinced they have evidence of God, as Joseph demonstrates. I have to say that he could well be on the money. He may well know God and I don't. The big difference with Joseph's view though is that he doesn't require anyone else to accept his view as evidence. I think I would refine my comment and say that if people just acknowledged they don't know God exactly, or if they believe they do that they accept that others might not see things that way, then the world would be a much better place for it.