PaulS

Kay, I think this is a very good (and safe) place for you to explore. There is a lot of information out there on the intranet and books that could totally transform the way you look at Christianity and Jesus, whilst still maintaining a faith. Welcome. Cheers Paul

Whoever wrote these words seems to me to be trying to 'sell' Jesus to a Jewish audience by insisting that Jesus is not a threat to Judaism, but complimentary. The writer is portraying Jesus as an example of the Law & the Prophets, not one who wants to turn everything on its head, but who wants to push the religion further along its path - a path started by the Law & Prophets and now extending further. That's my take anyway.

Awesome, Raven. Congratulations! I wish you and your partner all the best. It was 19 years ago on NYE that I met the woman who was to become my wife (makes the date easy to remember!). Cheers Paul

Thanks Randall, I look forward to reading your essay. Cheers Paul

I agree Dusk.

I come in as an Unitarian Universalist, apparently.

So instead, put an end to any debate, just in case?

So wouldn't people just choose to stop commenting, rather than close it off so nothing new can be added? Just my thoughts.

Joseph, I'm guessing there's some sort of technical reason, but I notice there's other threads here that are years old but one can still contribute a new post to them and reinvigorate the discussion. So I'm just wondering why and what it means to 'close' this thread? Cheers Paul

I agree with Tariki that it would make things clearer, and I agree with George that unfortunately such clarity does become rather cumbersome after the 2nd or 3rd use. Like Ron, often I have read in a Preface that the author acknowledges the anonymity of the gospel authors but for convenience will use the book's name to refer to the author. I can settle for that.

Someone who principally considers Jesus as the role model for living out one's life.

I've wanted to read this book, Neon, so yes I would be keen. But at the moment I'm in a discussion here on Haidt's book - The Righteous Mind. Maybe in a few weeks for me.

It is indisputable, Dutch - our gun buyback was responsible for the collection of over 600,000 firearms which was about 20% of our country's privately-owned firearms. More importantly, it halved the number of gun-owning households. And the data I presented earlier shows a history-breaking decline in our overall homicide rate. Whilst we do have a different culture and mindset toward firearms, cultural change doesn't happen quickly and it wasn't the reason for the severe decline in murder rates right at the time a fifth of the country's guns were removed. http://andrewleigh.org/pdf/GunBuyback_Panel.pdf

In my opinion, the right to protect oneslf by arming up, just in case, should be sensibly overridden by the right for society to suffer less mass killings. Incidentally, concerning the violent crime rate, this from Wikipedia: Violent crime The reported US violent crime rate includes only Aggravated Assault, whereas the Canadian violent crime rate includes all categories of assault, including the much-more-numerous Assault level 1 (i.e., assault not using a weapon and not resulting in serious bodily harm).[34][35] A government study concluded that direct comparison of the 2 countries' violent crime totals or rates was "inappropriate".[46] Just a side note - I don't think criminals shot and killed by police in the execution of their duty would be regarded as homicide. In a sense though, all people killed are victims, innocent or less so. Less firearms, which have stricter controls, will result in less access by gangs, drug war participants, those engaged in turf wars (gangs again?), etc. I know the point you are trying to make, however to me they're all victims who's deaths could be prevented when firearms are less available.

I certainly agree. There are probably a wide variety of causes - economic status, upbringing, religion, culture (even state by state), unemployment, TV & movies, hunting culture, self-defence culture, etc etc etc. The exact correlation between gun laws and some of those states you mention is probably beyond my ability and currently my preparedness. But what I do know is that whilst people spend time and money researching these answers, more people will die at the hands of others who have access to guns of ridiculous firepower and killing ability. The Australian example showed a marked decrease in homicide rates once many guns were removed from the scene. Now I don't know all the ins and out as to why that happened or other methods of changing mindset that may have had the same impact, but I can guarantee you that less guns will mean less deaths. Like the article I quoted above says - "“The difference is that in this country violence involves firearms and firearms change the outcome.” I think the US should take action now. No citizen needs to possess semi-automatic assault weapons. Nobody even needs repeating rifles and shotguns for that matter. I would encourage those people to make the personal sacrifice of giving up their guns, and perhaps their inalienable right to bear arms, so as to contribute toward making your society a safer and happier place to live.

Welcome Grace, and a very Merry Christmas to you. Having left fundy christianity (which had been my whole life) in the my late teens, I never looked back and never took an interest in that type of God. The last couple of years have had me wondering if that kind of God is actually a real God with a bum rap! I have had a rekindled interest in Christianity thanks to PC and reading some of the biblical scolarship currently being made more lay-friendly (although it has been around for the last couple of hundred years). I feel comfortable with much of what the likes of Borg and Spong and other PC authors write, compared to the picture of this God of incredible love who simply can't make an eternal exception for someone who doesn't 'get it right' this time around with their short life on this planet. This site has been a safe place for me to ask questions, bounce things around, and take time to consider 'God'. As it stands, I am still uncertain if there is a God of some description, but I am open to learning and experience. Welcome to the community and I hope it serves its purpose for you. Cheers Paul

While you're working out the reasons why some states don't kill with guns as much as other states, let's hope the people of the US don't suffer too many more massacres of little children in the meantime, simply because too many people have improper access to weapons of mass destruction (allbethey not chemical). I just don't think it takes a genius to realise that the US's higher than normal rate of firearm possession (compared to the rest of the developed world) simply must have some correlation with the US's higher than normal rate of firearm homicide (compared to the rest of the developed world). This from http://factcheck.org/2012/12/gun-rhetoric-vs-gun-facts/ : The firearms homicide rate, and homicide rate overall, is also higher in the U.S. than other advanced countries, such as Canada, Australia and those in Europe, according to data from the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime. The U.S. gun homicide rate was 3.2 per every 100,000 people in 2010, according to UNODC figures. The UNODC measures “intentional homicide,” which is “an unlawful death purposefully inflicted on a person by another person.” The international data show that country-to-country comparisons are inherently difficult to make — and, as the NRC said, provide “contradictory evidence.” For instance, Latin American countries with high levels of firearm homicide show low levels of gun ownership. Honduras has a gun ownership rate of 6.2 per 100 people and a gun homicide rate of 68.43 per 100,000 people, and Colombia has a gun rate of 5.9 and firearm homicide rate of 27.09, as shown in this chart produced by the Washington Post using the same data we have cited here. But among advanced countries, the U.S. homicide rate stands out. “We seem to be an average country in terms of violence and aggression,” says Harvard’s Hemenway. “What we have is huge homicide rates compared to anybody else.” Says Wintemute: “The difference is that in this country violence involves firearms and firearms change the outcome.” ...and this: America would have the same homicide rate as Australia… Posted on 21 December, 2012by Eclipse Now …if we just removed the whole category of ‘gun violence’. Australia’s non-firearm homicide rate is 1.26 per 100,000 people. Our firearm homicide rate is 0.31 per 100,000 people, bringing Australia’s total overall gun and non-gun homicide rate to 1.57 people per 100,000 people. America’s non-firearm homicide rate is 1.58 per 100,000 people. America’s firearm homicide rate is 2.97 people per 100,000 people, bringing their total overall homicide rate to 4.55 per 100,000 people. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence This means that America’s murder rate would be about the same as Australia’s if only they would lock away their guns! But with their guns, they are 4 times more likely to be murdered than us Australians. With Americans having, on average, 88 guns per 100 people, it seems like when the going gets tough, the tough head out to solve problems the American way. ”Solved by Second Amendment!” Gun murders in America are not something to spiritualise away with a little clucking of the tongue and lamenting ‘the evil in the human heart’. This is statistics. It’s social policy and law and common sense. Conflict and tension and murder will always be with us because of the human heart, but when you add guns to the problem of human evil, the laws of physics take those evil urges and magnify the results.

I'd like to share a very effective clip concerning road safety this Christmas. It's a campaign run by the Victorian Government, and their ads are absolutely amazing. Warning - this ad is prone to reality! A safe and Merry Christmas to all members, and on the road particularly. http://www.schooltube.com/video/5b858fa1ea1195085b56/ Cheers Paul

Joseph, The author of your first article doesn't define 'violent crime' but with his reference to security guards in pubs & hotels, I suspect he's including the likes of fights and assaults in those precincts. Ceratinly there has been an increase of such crime here in Australia too, blamed predominantly on so many young people using methylamphetamine recreationally, which tends to make one more aggressive when under the influence. Thank heavens these people aren't armed as well. For all its evils, you're still more than 3.5 more likely to be murdered in the US than you are in the UK. Interestingly, the UN report you cite briefly dicusses two theories concerning the correlation between firearms and homicides, but concludes "...a significant body of literature tends to suggest that firearm availability predominantly represents a risk factor rather than a protective factor for homicide. In particular, a number of quantitative studies tend towards demonstrating a firearm prevalence-homicide association". Even the UN can see that firearm availability = more murders!

NO, NO, please not another kindle mystical clipping, please! Thanks Tariki for suggesting this - I'm happy to kick things off and then sit back and read what others want to say. I would like to say that I have found this little community a great place for support, for challenging perceptions and ideas, for learning, and to some degree healing old wounds. I enjoy the interaction between new and old members and participants, and I am grateful how just about everybody treats others with complete dignity and respect. It has really helped me personally to be able to bounce ideas around and challenge assumptions long held. Obviously not all of us agree all the time, but generally this forum is ultra-civilised in this regard and you don't see that very much anywhere else. It's a credit to members, moderators, and administrators (I notice it's been raised by several new members just recently). So I would like to extend a sincere thankyou to everyone in this communtity for their help, tolerance, suggestions, explanations, and fellowship. This is my Church. Cheers Paul

And which God would you propose I choose, Betty? You seem to suggest I choose a God of my own making - one that fits my own reasoning. That doesn't seem so much a choice as a creation.

So what have the Australian laws actually done for homicide and suicide rates? Howard cites a study (pdf) by Andrew Leigh of Australian National University and Christine Neill of Wilfrid Laurier University finding that the firearm homicide rate fell by 59 percent, and the firearm suicide rate fell by 65 percent, in the decade after the law was introduced, without a parallel increase in non-firearm homicides and suicides. That provides strong circumstantial evidence for the law’s effectiveness. http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/08/02/did-gun-control-work-in-australia/

No, the dramatic reduction began around the mid-1980s, according to the chart dating from 1915. This was when laws started tightening in our 2nd most populous state - Victoria. 1988 saw extensive tightening there. Then followed the Howard Gun Laws in '96, and homicides further plummeted. The other chart only shows the decrease since 1990 and doesn't show the history prior.

Joseph, Of course the problem is deeper than gun ownership, but whilst people are dilly-dallying trying to determine exactly what the underlying issues are and how to fix them, people continue to die by the thousands from firearms. I think this guy is just wrong on his data and hence his conclusion. He claims a similiar gun per capita average - it's simply not, as the Wikipedia source pointed out. It's a little simplistic to say Canada has the same amount of guns per person but that's okay because they're just about all farmers and that's why there aren't as many murders! Even though Australia may be more sparsley populated, it was before the new gun laws too, but the figures show a dramatic reduction in the homicide rate overall, and a reasonable reduction in the suicide rate overall. Coincidence?

Maybe there's some hope this time 'round. http://www.demandaplan.org/