murmsk

For me PC is open dialog. Period.

Is God a Christian?: Creating a Community of Conversation by R. Kirby Godsey (May 31, 2011)

Dr. Godsey makes the assertion early in the book that there will never be world peace until the faith traditions of the world learn respect one another. Respect is birthed by open minded understanding.

This book is basically a challenge to the faithful to put in the effort to learn about one another.

steve

I think this question is indicative of the problems todays faith practitioners faces.

The question should read " I do __________ because I am a Christian".

Progressive Faith is a faith of addition not subtraction. I think Jesus was a man of addition.

steve

reading "Reading the Bible AGAIN for the first time" By Marcus Borg

I showed me I wasn't along in looking for a way to walk the path and not check my brain at the trailhead.

ve

ste

Many have asked the same question. For me, it lead me here.... it lead me to the realization that the basic premise shouldn't make sense to anyone because the basic premise of the church isn't the basic premise of Jesus. Does it make sense that a loving God would kill the first born of everyone in town except those who smeared blood on their mailbox? If you read the bible looking for the BIG picture taking into consideration who it was written for then it begins to make sense.

If you look at the bible as how the early followers of Jesus saw things and lose the inerrency, then things look a bit clearer. Biblical historians suggest that substitutionary atonement is a fairly recent construct of the Church. The idea of Jesus dying for me didn't make any sense until I realized that Martin Luther King dyed for me too. He died because of the sins of my fore-bearers, he died so I could see the light and he died so my children would grow up not knowing a bigots heart. God didn't kill him ( MLK or Jesus) ... the sins of the people did.

Another issue that I have passed by is that of heaven and hell. Would a loving God send one of his wayward children to eternal Hell? Would a loving set up a game of life so God can decide who goes to Heaven and who goes to Hell? Especially one that is so fear based.

When I quit trying to make sense out of things that couldn't . When I started reading the bible looking for wisdom instead of rules. When I looked for the big biblical picture and considered who the bible was written for..... everything made perfect sense.

I then was a follower of Jesus .

Get the book : reading the bible for the first time... again by Marcus Borg and "Meeting Jesus for the first time ... again" also by Borg.

steve

I live quite close to Nauvoo where the Morman population and influence is growing .They are good people and no different that any other fundamental Christian sect. Their actions should come as no surprise if one considers their goals and motivations (which are the same as any other Fundi church) .

The question for or about Romney ( and everyone else in public office ) is ... If the good and welfare of the country conflicts with the good and welfare of the church ... who wins. To put it another way does Romney have the ability to make a decision that goes against the church? I was the same question posed to JFK.

To me it has less to do with the church and more to do with the individual. Anyone who believes anything is infallible has blinders on and will be prone to bad decisions. Frankly Santorium/Huckabey et al scares me more that Romney in that regard.

steve

If you were reading literature from a church , what words or expressions would suggest to you that this was a place where you might be comfortable?

I will throw out a few...

welcoming , inclusive, open

thanks steve

I think our underlying worldview guides how we interpret the Bible and what we choose to cite or ignore. Change the worldview and the biblical interpretations will follow.

EXACTLY!!

which makes ones view on religious bigotry a personal one rather than a biblical one.

steve

Did Santorium's comment the we are or should be a "Christian Country" worry anyone? It is the same concern people had about JFK... I think it is a loyalty question ... If the good of the country conflicts with the good of the church ... what wins?

steve

I have reasonably good success using the argument that the attitude of religious discrimination against gays is entirely a personal choice and shouldn't be blamed on the bible.

I point out ..even the literalists interpret the bible . And can point out several NT several bible verses to support things like slavery, subordination of women and the like that they have rightly chosen to read in such a manor that their interpretation is likely much different than those of the past and more inline with Jesus's message of grace and compassion for all.And if they had the choice for slavery and women then they have the same choice now with GLBT. If thier attitude is based solely on bible interpretations then they have no choice but to view slavery as non-sinful and subordination of women as non-sinful . Further if they get hung-up on the whole NT as a new direction and OT lessons can be ignored only when directed by the NT then any cloth that is not 100% would be sinful........ the list could go on .... Care to discuss the Year of Jubilee with an affluent fundamentalist?

Try and get them to take responsibility for their views.

We can spend our time trying to figure out what early Christians thought without asking why is their interpretation more important than our own.

Steve

A quick comment that perhaps speaks to the concerns of Myron(from a different thread) with respect to progress.

As I read and discuss GLBT issues ... it seems folks with a passion for equal treatment either are gay themselves or came to their understanding via a friend or loved one being gay.... my uncle was gay and died having lived 2 separate lives . It was only after he died that the family came to really know him and love him.

How sad it is that something like this has to happen to see the light. Perhaps what Myron was speaking of is that until society develops the ability to see "right" even when it doesn't relate to them personally true progress will be limited.

steve

The real problem and a more interesting debate that I think they should have brought up is that the English translations of the bible that condemn homosexuality are mistranslated into English and have nothing to do with homosexuality between consenting and loving adults at all.

Would you be willing to expand on this? The reason I ask is that If I were to go into a discussion with that arguement I have to be able to back it up. It would be greatly appreciated.

steve

Does unnatural mean anything that deviates from "normal for their species?

An example might be many species of fish will snack on their young ... this is natural

Most mammals don't eating of ones young would thus be unnatural

If this follows then humans are the species that has taken unnatural acts to new heights.

steve

Many surveys show that younger evangelical Christians are becoming more moderate in their religious beliefs and are slowly but surely becoming more gay friendly. If the younger evangelical Christians become fully supportive of gay rights and other liberal social justice values while still holding conservative religious beliefs, do you think there will still be a need for progressive Christianity?

PC is more than Gay Rights...

Much of it ,I think, is based on the change in rhetoric of the early writings. Mark, Matthew, and Luke (the earliest gospels) use a much different language to describe Jesus than John which was written after the big split. The early letters attributed to Paul use much different language than the later letters that were probably written so some of Pauls students many years later. I suspect much of it is reading between the lines so to speak. Early Jesus is not spoken of as "The Christ" later he is.

steve

We go to the dentist and endure some pain so it won't hurt worse later.

A parent uses negative stimuli to teach their child ( timeout or spanking)

Society has prisons, wages wars

all for a perceived greater good

is this the same thing or am I missing something??

There has only been once that I have gotten close .... regardless

My comment was just that a comment that I never should have made rather than a complaint.

I am OK with it

steve

“Heredity-influenced homosexuality occurs in populations worldwide too frequently to be due to mutations alone […] The trait must be favored by natural selection […] homosexuality may give advantages to the group by special talents, unusual qualities of personality, and the special roles and professions it generates. There is abundant evidence that such is the case in both preliterate and modern societies.”

This might a trait simular to the sickle cell trait in africans. It is a double recessive ..... it takes the trait coming from both mother and father to get sickle-cell getting the trait from only one parent gives the offspring resistance to malaria.

steve

This article is a start

http://www.reviewatlas.com/opinions/x639968844/America-will-move-forward-from-LGBT-prejudice

steve

Don't believe me? Go post pro-gay comments on T-Web, the Washington Post forum, or the Columbus Dispatch and see what happens.

Probably roughly the same thing as if you posted a pro-civil rights comment in 1964 ?

The battle is just beginning!

steve

For me the trinity is unimportant. I asked myself why should it matter and I couldn't come up with one reason why it really mattered... so I don't worry about it. I don't know .... probably never will ... at this point no one knows

My problem is, I just can't seem to find a comfortable (or even an uncomfortable!) place for Christ in my Christianity that doesn't play havoc with my intellectual integrity. As a part of my growth process, I have set for myself the exercise of writing my personal statement of faith. When I get to Jesus, both pre-Easter and post-Easter (Borg), I don't know what to do with the post-Easter Christ.

Why can't the pre and post easter Jesus be the same. Jesus said follow me not believe in me. Jesus doesn't have to be "believed in" to be relevant. If you view "Christianity" as a way of living ones life.

I view the Bible as the views of an ancient people and the best mirror we have into Jesus life but colored by the attitudes and world view of the societies from which they came. The overall story seems valid the details don't.

There is very little "belief " involved in my faith journey . I have a sense there is a God. I have a sense God spoke through Jesus. I have a sense God speaks through you too. I don't worry about stuff I can't know. If something doesn't seem to fit... I throw it out. If truth as I see it today turns out to be wrong... I am OK with that, I even expect it ... the journey was/is still worthwhile. I sleep good at night.

steve

WOW When I posted the article my thoughts were that it was a well written article with well thought out arguments that while not new were in an easily understandable logical format. In no way did I mean to offend anyone.

From a historical sense if we look at civil right struggle 1964 was much more violent than 1958 in spite of and in all likelyhood due to the progress being made.

Another thought... If someone asked Medger Evers wife if she saw progress in 1964 I suspect she would feel much the same as Myron. This battle is not being fought in my front yard. The viewpoint for those in whose front yard it is being fought is much different. The concern from history is that there was great progress for the first few after the civil war to a point where freed slaves were even elected to congress followed by significant retraction as evidenced by segregation, jim crow and poll laws. Perhaps these are the basis for Myrons comments. If so they are very valid.

yet another thought... A few months ago I was having lunch with a group of colleagues, most my age 55+ but two were just out of school .we were discussing same sex unions. After much discussion between the old guys one of the kids said that this was " your generations problem.... my generation doesn't care"

steve

This was in our local newspaper yesterday.

http://www.reviewatlas.com/opinions/x639968844/America-will-move-forward-from-LGBT-prejudice

steve

I struggle with traditional prayer and find little meaning in it. Meditation is my prayer time... I find if I can clear my mind of the back ground drivel ... I often find the answers I seek.

Spong spoke about prayer in something I read or watched... He related a story of when he was a young pastor visiting a woman who had just received bad medical news ... after visiting her for several hours discussing her impending death with all the fear, sadness, rememberance's and joys of life ,he closed with a standard pastoral prayer. Afterword he questioned whether the 2 hours of wonderful exchange between the two of them had been the real prayer.

steve

Or do they feel God is not likely to respond to selfish or unreasonable requests?

steve