Jump to content

murmsk

Members
  • Content Count

    323
  • Joined

  • Last visited

  • Days Won

    17

Everything posted by murmsk

  1. Bill, These letters were written to a church who already knew the teaching of Jesus and were in all likelihood responses to problems or questions. steve
  2. I have heard the argument, maybe from Borg, that the later letters might have been written by a mentee or two and were an attempt to take the edge off Pauls teachings and make them more "politically correct" for the time. I believe most of the back tracking of the lessons that stray from Jesus's message occurred in the later letters. I hope they get into this in later chapters steve
  3. "I’m a little confused by your referring to Paul’s “divorce”" I am referring to when Christianity became a "religion" rather than a Jewish sect. Most think this happened in the last third of the first century after the synoptics were written but before John. steve
  4. "Does anyone else feel like the literal Paul is over-emphasized in fundamentalist churches but the historical Paul is under-emphasized in liberal theological circles?" NG Yes I do on the first part. I think groups use what ever is available to justify what they know in their heart to be wrong. I feel like prejudice is a hard wired character flaw of all humans and it takes effort from even the best of people to recognize and combat it. Fundamental churches have done a particularly poor job of this. I also agree that historic viewing of the bible not just Paul needs to be emphasized much more. It is under-emphasized for several reasons. First the historic viewpoint movement is fairly young. Most people have been brought up being taught a much more literal view and only after they struggle with the inconsistencies do they begin to look for something deeper. I understand that it is taught in seminary but most ministers are afraid to stir things too much. It has been slow going. Second I think the more open minded of us tend to shy away from controversy. How many here choose not to attend a church regularly? steve
  5. I have just started the chapter as I am a slooooo reader so my ideas at this point are more expectations. I have really struggled with Paul over the years. On the one hand his importance can't be denied. On the other hand the inconsistencies are so dramatic and often contradict the teachings of Jesus. He touts grace and then condemns homosexuals, woman and slaves..... WHAT GIVES??? I have explained to my self that there must have been deeper meaning that we don't know.We are after all only hearing one side of the conversation. I then consider the number of times I have told my childern something like "if you hang out with those people.. you will waste your life away" Taken out of context you might think I have a prejudice against "those people" when in reality it is a specific comment about a specific situation. We have no way of knowing the specific situation. Imagine if your life as a parent is summed up by only what you wrote in a hand full of letters as responses to situations that came up in college ? There also is the problem that many of the books were not written by Paul. How does this change things? As I understand it Paul lived as a Jew before the divorce while some of the letters not written by him were written after the divorce. So some were written by a Jew some by a Christian. How does this our view of things?? steve
  6. I received my book today ..... Is everyone ready? There are 7 chapters so if we read a chapter a week we can get through the book in just under 2 months. Post your comments and questions for chapter 1 here. steve
  7. My book should be here sometime early next week. I am excited to study Paul since he is historically the earliest discussion of Jesus. I have not read much of the bible since I have read Borgs "Reading the Bible again for the first time" so it is going to be interesting so see what new subtleties emerge. What bible version do people find the most enjoyable? steve
  8. I might also add that I think it is long past time for those of us who think of themselves as progressive Christians begin to voice our opinions. For way too long we have aloud those with less to say to dominate the Christian discussion. People need to know that the fundamentalists DO NOT SPEAK FOR ALL CHRISTIANS. If we are looking for a reason why church attendance is down you don't have to look past Pat Robertson Just my opinion steve
  9. Exactly my point. If their motivations are for a "Family Event" where the family members are respectful then I have no problem going and as Joseph says I can always find something to grasp. If their motivations are to "Save the liberal" then it can become an exercise in self-defendance. I have several good friends who are conservative ministers .... we can talk about religion because of mutual respect I even go to their church on occasion.. We don't agree but it is always a fun and enlightening discussion. I might also add they don't preach hate. On the other hand I have another minister friend that I can't talk to because he always tries to save me and gets frustrated. I just smile Comes down to motivations steve
  10. Why do they want you to go? Family event ? To save you from PC? steve
  11. I think my greatest fear is not meaning something that is positive. I am not even sure it is a fear maybe more of a greatest motivation. I don't fear death, partly because the concept of Hell makes no sense to me, but I am not ready because I think I still have something to offer. One of the greatest gifts my father(an athiest ) gave me as a child is what ever you do be worthwhile. steve
  12. I tend to think the biggest obstacle is religious bigotry. Bigotry being a fundamental human flaw with the religions of the world attempting (some better than others) to help curb our animalistic tendencies. steve
  13. when people get their books respond here. When enough have them we can begin steve
  14. How about metaphoric? Caesar and the Jewish church tries to silence a radical social activist by killing him and his message rises and grows into a new religion? steve
  15. I see prejudice as a fundamental hardwired human flaw. The sooner we recognize and admit it , the easier it will be to control it. Maybe it is tied to our animalistic self preservation instinct? It is a demon all humans fight their entire life. steve
  16. You bring up several issues, Why bad things happen to good people? This has been a question that has been asked for millions of years and never a satisfying answer. The fact that there has never been a satisfying answer suggests that there may not be an understandable answer. Or, and this is my personal view, it may be that stuff happens ..... thats life ..... ya can't have good without bad. Look at if from a squirrels life. He crosses the road and gets hit by a car Gods how do we explain this??? Stuff happens? Is the only difference between a squirrel and humans that we have the ability to say "Man that sucks"?? I personally find it a bit arrogant for humans to think we are the only creatures that God loves. Now getting to Earned Redemption I feel that it is an attempt by the church to explain the unexplainable and it is a very unsatisfying explanation at that. steve
  17. First Paul it is !! I ordered it from amazon today. When it gets here we can begin. http://www.amazon.com/First-Paul-Reclaiming-Visionary-Conservative/dp/0061430730/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1269636382&sr=8-1 I am most comfortable with books being chosen by the group rather than just me. I am a Congregationalist after all..... We can't turn the thermostat down without a vote. While my wife shopped for dresses I spent an afternoon on Barns and Nobel reading The book by Karen Armstrong. I would be a good study too!! I am excited about this and hope this is the beginning of great study and discussions. We should introduce ourselves. I think i already have (see above) steve
  18. The Meyers book is more of a comment on the present/future of Christianity plus a blueprint and argument for Progressive Christianity The Borg/Crossen book as I understand it is presenting a historic/metaphoric understanding of the books considered to be written by Paul One is a bible study the other is a church study I am happy with either Yes I would be nice to get at least one more reader steve
  19. I have read saving jesus from the church great book and well worth reading again! First Paul is on my list of future reads so eather would be great. are there any others interested?? steve
  20. That about Markus Borgs books " reading the bible again for the first time" or "meeting jesus again for the first time" or Robin Myers book "Saving Jesus for the Church" steve
  21. murmsk

    Hello

    Let me introduce myself I am steve murmann member and moderator of a congregational church in west central Illinois For years we have limped along slowly loosing membership . 3 years ago it came to close of re-evaluate and change. I was ready to close. But God had other plans! as we contemplated our future be began to study "living the Questions" DVD series and wholly cow people who think like me!!! I am not alone in my questionings. We were not alone. The more we read the more we realized that our Christian community was progressive but did not know it. Sunday we voted to re-plant our church as an Inclusive, Progressive, Intentional Christian Church. THE WORK STARTS NOW!!! When I showed the 8 points the biggest argument we got was "I agree with everything except the word progressive with the rub being that this was the way the church was until the fundamentalists began speaking for all Christians. So here we are heading down a familiar road but this time we are going to try and keep our eyes open.
  22. Let me introduce myself I am steve murmann member and moderator of a congregational church in west central illinois For years we have limped along slowly loosing membership . 3 years ago it came to close of re-evaluate and change. I was ready to close. But God had other plans! as we contemplated our future be began to study "living the Questions" DVD series and wholly cow people who think like me!!! I am not alone in my questionings. We were not alone. The more we read the more we realized that our christian community was progressive but did not know it. Sunday we voted to re-plant our church as an Inclusive, Progressive, Intentional Christian Church. THE WORK STARTS NOW!!! When I showed the 8 points the biggest argument we got was "I agree with everything except the word progressive with the rub being that this was the way the church was until the fundamentalists began speaking for all Christians. So here we are heading down a familiar road but this time we are going to try and keep our eyes open. I am hoping to open some dialog with others who are on this path too. I have no book in mind and was hoping some (who have been on the road longer) could suggest good studies and we can read/study together. We have read books by Borg, Spong, Crossen, Meyers . We could choose one of them or a different one. a chapter a week??? steve
  23. Is there any interest in starting an online book study where we choose a book and go through it a chapter at a time? steve murmann
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

terms of service