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My views of the afterlife are very, very specific... and horribly controversial. I do not mind stating what I believe, but I will not sit here and defend or debate it with people who want to rip it apart. I really have no interest nor time for that kind of thing. I am a live-and-let-live pluralistic girl, I believe what is right for you is fine and what is right for me is fine. Can we not just get along? At least I think, that people will be respectful... I'm hinging on that, so don't prove me wrong. My views are and you really do have to read the entire thing to grasp the overall view. I need to go through it step by step to layer my beliefs up into a stack that will form one entire viewpoint, so if you aren't in for a read, you might wanna skip this post. The basics: First, I believe there is an afterlife (Heaven), and I don't really believe in a Hell in the usual definition ... I do not believe we automatically go to the afterlife when we die. I think we'll all end up there eventually, but it isn't an instant transition. I'll talk very, very, ever so briefly about this at the end of the post. It'll be just about my most controversial view, I think. Heaven: I believe in it. That it is a state of existence after death where we exist with God, not apart from Him. I see Heaven almost as a potential working and functional society which typically differs from the "sit around and eat bonbons in joy and worship God 24/7" motif. I think after death we will have a "life," with work or tasks, goals, and so on. There will be no suffering, it will be perfect, but the manner in which I see the "perfection" of the afterlife is quite different from most people. I don't think God's ideal of perfection is for us all to be lazy, or mindless robots with no choices, or for us to not maintain relationships or goals. For me, sitting around doing nothing all day is more like my idea of Hell Moving on.. I think God's love is perfect, and eternal. Eternal doesn't mean it ends at death. I think the idea of damnation being "just" is flawed. Some people are appalled by the fact that murderers could end up in Heaven... but I would be appalled if they didn't, because that would mean God either didn't want to forgive them, or was incapable of forgiving them, one of the two. Neither of these sits in my (very personal) Christianity. I don't mind that murderers might be beside me in heaven, because they will have been forgiven by God for their sins just as God forgave mine. Perhaps I didn't murder someone, sure... but I've done plenty of my own trespasses that need God's grace. Who am I to say what is greater than another when it comes to sin, people, or even deeds of any kind? That's not my place. People often argue "Well we're given every chance to seek God while we're alive," but that isn't true. If we are to be given -every- opportunity to accept God, we not only need a nearly limitless amount of chances to do so, but we must also be allowed to stand in His presence and decide for ourselves. (More on that in a moment...) Hell? I don't believe in a literal place of fire and brimstone. I think the literal Hell was a garbage dump on the outskirts of Jerusalem and I probably wouldn't wanted to have lived there. Anyway... as per Hell: I think that it makes no sense (not in logic nor justice nor religion) for a loving and "just" God to punish a mortal finite life of 90 or so years, with eternal punishment. Eternal punishment for finite actions is not justice, unless we're talking a kind of hell you can work your way out of over time (finite hell for finite actions? Maybe... That's not my belief though, just for the record. I'm just saying it makes more sense.) I don't believe God needs to "punish" us at all because He forgives us, with love and justice that knows no bounds. I think it makes more sense that God's grace and truth are eternal in all aspects, including in/through/after death. When we face God, including those who never believed in Him, we will then know the truth... and we will be faced with reality, and we will still have a choice. When God gave us free will, He gave us the ability to choose our own fates. At our final hour, this choice will not be stripped from us, and that makes no sense under the whole "eternal punishment for finite actions" deal. And even if we never before believed in God, or even if we did horrible things to people during our lives... who could stand before God now and say "You don't exist" or "I reject you." -- Who wouldn't fall on his or her face and beg God's forgiveness for basically being a moron in life? Actually ... I think some people could, that's the thing. Look to God Himself after death and still reject Him, I mean. So if in all of that... if even after death we are given a chance to accept God's grace while standing -in his presence-, and still we reject Him for whatever unfathomable reasons? Then yes, we do place ourselves in a state of Hell: A state of separation from God we choose to thrust ourselves into. I don't know what that state is or how it operates... while my beliefs are fairly firm on this, the details are sketchy; however, I simply don't think the details are all that important since I have a relationship with God. I'd imagine if I needed to know more about it, God would be letting me in on it. As it stands, I only know that a separation from God after death would logically involve the extreme opposite of existing in perfection on all things (including joy) -with- God. The exact extreme opposite of perfection in joy certainly can't be very good, to put it mildly... but I choose not to dwell on negative things. That "interim period"... All right so.. I gave you the basics, and my thoughts on heaven, and my thoughts on hell... there is that one little thing left hanging that I almost hate to mention, the whole "What happens after we die if the Afterlife isn't immediate" idea. This is where I get Gnostic on people, and they basically lose me all together, they tell me I'm not a Christian, and proceed to feed me to the resident wolves (I'm on a number of Christian forums, I know the standard procedure ) ... I believe that we are reborn after we die, and we will continue to be reborn until we have learned what we need to know in order to connect with God so that we may return to Him. *shrugs* Anti-climactic perhaps, it's not a new concept, though it does get quite controversial in Christianity of all places. But, it's actually pretty fitting with everything I just said (assuming anyone read it all ), since I believe God must in all fairness give us every possible opportunity to accept Him since He is eternal and not base anything off of a single mortal life. Rebirths make complete sense to me, and they jive in my personal relationship with God. And yes, it may seem that this makes Hell obsolete entirely, but I do believe a person can go all their lives til the end of the earth or the end of humanity (should we manage to get off this rock), or the end of the universe, or some other end I'm not aware of, and just.. never get it. And there may still be other instances where the soul stops progressing through rebirths that I am simply not aware of, I am after all not God and not the master of life and death... But all I know is that end, whatever it may be, that is when you really have your final chance to get it right. Standing in His presence, once and for all, having managed to screw it up time and time again. You've got your last shot. To touch back on that for a moment, I honestly do believe that 99.999~% of people will be with God, which means I do believe there is someone (probably a lot of someones when you total up the population over the entire history of the human race) who is going to end up separating themselves from God in a state of "Hell". The idea of someone rejecting God in His presence seems silly perhaps to some, but I've actually read blogs of people who have stated outright they have intention to reject God in His presence when they die, for any number of reasons. Now frankly, I don't believe they will all truly be able to do what they claim.. but if they really do have that will in life, if they aren't even willing to say "You know, all right, if I'm face to face with Him in death, I guess I can't ignore that," that may mean they are capable of carrying that will and that choice into death as well. So I definitely can't count it out. There is one other facet to the "separation from God" aspect: That when you die (in any one life), you've rejected God so completely and fundamentally that you've created a stain so deep on your very existence, that rebirthing isn't even a possibility any longer. You've truly died to yourself in the worst possible way (a statement Christians often used as a positive statement -- dying to yourself as obedience to God -- but one I consider accurate in a much different and negative way). If you cannot even acknowledge God at all any longer, how can you keep going when God is what keeps the process going in the first place? When God is at the root of all that exists. ... and I think this in essence is the true blasphemy that threatens to separate us from God forever. Final thoughts: .. well .. that is my entire belief in the afterlife. Perhaps there is no one who will ever agree with me, I'm ok with that. I guess it might sound cowardly (though I consider it "peaceful"), but I really have no interest in "defending" my beliefs. I enjoy sharing what I believe but... that's really the extent of it. I see a question that was asked, and I want to answer it so that people can see my take on the subject... but what do I care if everyone wants to pull it apart from the seams? It has no impact on my personal beliefs because I right my beliefs with God. So you'll forgive me if anyone decides to take issue with what I've said, and I then seem suspiciously absent. It's not personal. It's just business. On one last offnote: I stuck to the "afterlife" related concepts in this post, but I actually do believe in other sorts of "hell" that we as mortal beings confine ourselves to in the mortal realm. Those are important but, I believe they relate more to life than to death, and this thread is about the afterlife.

A few months ago I finished a book called Unlikely Disciple by Kevin Roose. The author goes "under cover" at Liberty University to see what life is like as a conservative Christian university student under Rev. Falwell. He completely immerses himself in the experience and writes about it... I haven't lamented finishing a book in a long time, but I was really sad when this book ended. It was an excellent read and I just want another one so much, lol.

thank you~ I admit that's not the best Robert Frost work I could have posted, but it's strangely one of my favorite little pieces, haha

Having seen how some very mild things I believe appear to shock people, I'm terrified to post my view of the afterlife LOL I wish this thread were back in the Progressive section. I'd love to talk about it, but I truly loathe debate. Sadly this is where all the interesting threads are!

LOL! I think it's terribly easy to pick a favorite poem from a range of existing authors and works. I think it's both more difficult and more creative to write one of your own, and think very well of it to boot. We've grown into a society where people increasingly think very little of themselves and what they have to contribute to society. If we aren't famous, we have nothing worth reading... so I say all power to JM Here's two of my own work that I happen to enjoy And just to pacify the masses... one from a different author --------------------------------- The Child I Everything drowns in grey overtones and people, unaware of cautious sight, step gently to avoid dark holes and prune the flowers 'round the outer rim. Except, one child, a curiosity of sorts with ice-fresh eyes and straw-toned hair turns back to move against the crowd. II Something no one ever saw in a black and white world their backs to see and faces to ignore This light that seems the end of Earth, he sees with piercing gaze, and reaches, feels, but cannot touch and lives in life like no one ever tried. Music from a far off place, a song a smile, in faded pink, yet lost. III Grand innocence beauty doth abide to fight lurking clouds, moored above the lake - but nurture's strained, and Nature can't contend the fog and mist, unknown, conspire defeat. And turning from the bright horizon here he takes the only hand he ever knew and dies. --------------------------------- I walk alone I walk alone, but not dejected, not upset and not rejected, not embossed with tear-stained eyes, complacent under sundry skies. I've come full circle, here I stand along this road with no demands, unwinding candor strand by strand -- ... the world just falls away. --------------------------------- "Not All There" by Robert Frost I turned to speak to God About the world's despair; But to make bad matters worse I found God wasn't there. God turned to speak to me (Don't anybody laugh) God found I wasn't there—— At least not over half.

Reclaiming God -- which is a personal compilation of my own beliefs, as well as a site to encourage others to explore their own personal progressive beliefs and not give up on faith in God. http://www.reclaiming-god.com/