glintofpewter

I think technology does not have the power to change mindsets. Certainly it is a powerful tool but there is a strong impulse toward balkanization or increased tribalism. Watched a TED talk which highlighted how google's responses to an identical search have such wide differences in results because of the individual's habits. In response to news on the up-rising in Egypt one first page of results had only travel and history responses. Besides balkanization forces Star Trek universe does not supply everyone's need for power which leads to many of the conflicts. I believe in Lord of the Rings and the 10-80-10 rule. The abusive social organization devolved in Lord of Rings is always a potential response which will occur even if basic needs are met. Roughly 80% of the people can be swayed by free riders and corruption. Star Trek has no answer to these problems. This 80% can also be influenced by prophets and leaders so the global world can be moved in the direction of Roddenbery's uptopia. There is talk in many arenas about the opportunity being at hand to change the global mindset. The Charter for Compassion is one. Integral growth thinkers and writers are prophesying such. some wuick ideas Take Care

I like this. In his context he probably can't do away heaven.

Sorry - intentionality is not part of worship planning. Worship is on automatic. No attempt to build the congregation's repertoire of songs it knows how sing - no learned flexibility with a variety of worship order and types that are comfortable - no exploring new language and metaphors. Too often hymns have images that reinforce a substitutionary model of the crucifixion which few members believe in. Dutch

Nick, PC(USA) is making progress, I guess. More Light Presbyterians Media Release February 25, 2011 Presbyterians Move Toward Acceptance of Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual and Transgender Ministers For the first time ever, voters in the Presbyterian Church (USA) who favor dropping exclusionary policies against gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender (LGBT) people are in the lead in a nationwide vote. [65-43 as of 3/23] In 2010, the national body approved an amendment that would allow LGBT candidates for ordination to be evaluated on their spiritual call to ministry and their abilities. The amendment then went to the 173 regional presbyteries across the country for a vote on whether or not to ratify the amendment. The Presbyterian pastors I know said this move in favor of ordaining gays is perhaps possible because so many conservatives have left the church Spong talks about this problem with Michael Dowd. A pastor I worked with had similar ideas. Both said that your audience influences what is appropriate. Neither were sacrificing their intellect. My pastor said it succinctly, "Don't stop someone from worshipping." meaning that then is not the time to challenge their beliefs. Might be a time to stretch them but not challenge them. Spong suggested that the time to study how the birth narratives are largely an invention is after Christmas. This is fine and dandy but, at least at my church, worship has been abandoned and the liturgy is on default. Maybe the new pastor will bring an ear for new language, hymns and metaphors. Today's preacher was a sub for interim and didn't know that we almost never use the newer hymnal so the average age of the hymns was 25-30 years instead of 100. Take Care Dutch

The pastor who was fired had written a number of controversial posts on his blog not associated with his church. Gay marriage and other radical ideas. The non-existence of hell was the last straw for the church who fired the young pastor. The wonder of all this, to me, is that this is more evidence that the conservative church is moving beyond its fundamental base. No Hell, evolutionary Christianity, and save the earth type efforts are signs that they won't be stuck in a narrow, fearful attitude towards the world. I don't always like that they are controlling the conversation with issues that are so 20th century but there are signs of movement. Take Care Dutch

this is an older thread but it seemed an appropriate place I am in need of new music as much as any other - and the church I attend has none! none! "Shine Jesus Shine Jesus" is probably the newest. But when I find a church with good resources I found the following approach interesting. It is kind of like having control over your psychological problems by being able to name them . This church uses a wide variety of music and when they use older hymns they label them as coming from a traditional era or mythic-literal viewpoint. Instead of grinding teeth everyone can relax and say to themselves, Oh, this is from this is that tradition/viewpoint. It seems me that one reason for doing this is to acknowledge that there is no break with the past but only development/evolution in the church and the past is part of our present. As I said - Only when there is a balance. All the service(s) shouldn't be labeled traditional or mythic-literal. This Suquamish UCC also uses pop/rock songs. http://suquamishucc.org/about/what-we-believe/what-is-the-integral-church/a-map/integral-church I heard about Tom thresher's Church in one of the Evolutionary Christian conversations coordinated by Michael Dowd. http://evolutionarychristianity.com/blog/audio-downloads/ Take Care Dutch

I am cold and green. Have a good time. Dutch

August 3rd 2010 Helped my daughter, my roommate, pack her truck for her move to Helena, Montana, with her Prince Charming. Signed the Short Sale Acceptance letter; the house will be out of my hands by August 27th. Acknowledged to Diane that our relationship is over (she has a partner) and we should move toward legalizing the Dissolution of our marriage. In late September I will move to an apartment across town and much closer to work. Dutch

soma, Thanks. Haven't seen the play love S.F. My son was born at the SF hospital Diane and I had a good time driving up and back. No, we won't ever share living quarters again. Our encounters help me learn to enjoy what happens today without making it mean anything. The Reunion was wonderful. No thunderstorms to ruin an afternoon. So many encounters. From my cousin the Wycliffe Bible Translator - they typically translate 25% of the old and 75% of the new. From my cousin the history professor - in the 800s there was a word for the mistress of the priest in the vernacular. Now why would they need such a word ? Any one ever seen a Sky Lantern? We used these as a way to remember deceased members of family. Wonderful. Watched them float on the breeze until they were out of sight. Not sure how it would work in the city. http://skylanterns.bigfireworks.com/ Dutch

Leaving this morning for family reunion which focuses on the grandchildren of my mothers great grand father Morten Larsen Mortensen. 75 of us will gather at my sister's ranch 17 miles up the Elk River from Steamboat Springs, Colorado. It may be the last time for a long time Diane and I and our two children and their spouse/beau will be in the same place at the same time. Take Care Dutch

Women: Is it because men are more confrontational and women more collaborative; Dutch

David, This is non-responsive non-sense to the Ugandan situation. Since your rational philosophic of Christianity seems to be useless in finding values or morality issues to discuss here then it seems to be meaningless. So sorry, Dutch

I have experienced a writing moment where everything relates to my focus and so write a litany such as this "evidence of personal beginning" list. Ignoring the figure-ground problem of "personal beginning" many of the items seem meaningless to me. But a few catch my attention. As Mike commented evolution explains complexity very well, I think. I am open to this but that is because, following Jakob Boehme, I think that seeking self knowledge is the why of creation and relationship is the how. Evolution is sufficient explanation for freedom. I don't understand why humans have to know the "why" of morality. Morality grows out relationship. There is no prior why that I see. I think that morality can be explained by evolution and learning how to live together. And . . . Two truckers and the low bridge . . . that's how science works and yes, it hurts sometimes. Just ask those people who thought we could fly by imitating the flapping wings of a bird and tested the idea by jumping off bridges. Flying low, Dutch

David, Give Neon enough respect to discuss the following in particulars. If these people are not taking right action how are they to know what right action is? Dutch

David, In a very impersonal response you have totally ignored the challenge in the evidence that Neon puts forth. Based on Neon's evidence and your response I think that the answer to your question below is "Let's ignore the evidence on earth and in the Bible and I, David, will tell you. I will tell what the Bible means since you clearly misread it and I will tell you how logic works because clearly you don't understand." The personal beginning gives no evidence for final absolutes and final categories. A personal beginning gives evidence for relationships. Relationships are not absolutes or categories; they are personal and dynamic. Hi Your grinding stone, Dutch

Found this googling. Thought you might like it. Barry Lopez (Arctic Dreams) How is one to live a moral and compassionate existence when one is fully aware of the blood, the horror inherent in life, when one finds darkness not only in one's culture but within oneself? If there is a stage at which an individual life becomes truly adult, it must be when one grasps the irony in its unfolding and accepts responsibility for a life lived in the midst of such paradox. One must live in the middle of contradiction, because if all contradiction were eliminated at once life would collapse. There are simply no answers to some of the great pressing questions. You continue to live them out, making your life a worthy expression of leaning into the light. dutch

1 John 4:7&8 It is enough. Dutch

Your astuteness, Logically I don't see how you can say anything about the beginning. We can only talk about what happened next and next and next . . . But I believe in the stories of our faiths we can talk about beginnings and we can talk about spiritual truths. These are heart and soul stories of mystery and Spirit. To make them any less with analysis by logic and science is to destroy them. Humans did not "get" knowledge about good and evil. Humans are learning about good and evil. We often forget what our parents learned. And we have to learn again. The history of democracy is not about deciphering the manual; it is about writing it. I don't agree with everything in the Westminster Confession. I see Goldschmidt, the Larger Catechism, and Ten Commandments as being of the same cloth: Humans learning to live with each other and setting standards for behavior. The intent of this project is not to be dismissed as meaningless because there is no absolute propositional reference. It is a matter of life and death. And it is enough. Ultimately it is about love. Your humble silver-tonguedness

Your astuteness, If the beginning has an attribute then it has been individuated and is therefore not the beginning. Something personal is part of but not the whole of that which is the beginning. See Walter Goldschmidt, Affect Hunger, for one answer. The Westminster Confession of Faith Larger catechism has an excellent commentary on the 10 commandments. Same to you. Take care. Dutch

To arms! to arms! There is a dragon -- fun for a bit David, Inter-religious dialog The 4th step of inter-religious dialog is to engage in and experience the other's religious practices. And reflect. Clarity? Certainly. Change? possibly. I think if the two participants agree on a truth then it is so. But the truth only exists in their agreement. I am reminded of peer reviewed scientific endeavors. I think one can know things about gravity or apples that are true but a religious truth that can be spoken of in the same way as gravity, that is unobtainable, or, rather, I don't see evidence of that. In the face of death humans have a need to make meaning, but there is no evidence of intrinsic meaning. I only see man-made meaning, if by "meaning" one means "intent". That which began creation is the source of everything, especially all that we think, rightly or wrongly, is good or evil. I think humans intrinsically don't know anything about good and evil; humans discover this knowledge in relationship with each other and the world. Based on your definitions I see no evidence in the natural world to support the claim of a personal or impersonal beginning. I think neither attribute applies; that no attribute applies. Attributes came after the beginning so did not exist in the beginning. As I reviewed the thread I see that you are well-read and logical in your intellect, great assets in discipling, and perhaps, proselytizing. This must be a good place to sharpen you sword. Enjoy! Dutch

This thread or conversation is an inter-religious dialog because the participants do not agree; because they use different language and practices in their spiritual journey; because there different understandings of Jesus the Christ, and, few seek to be in alignment with one another. I think that understanding is the ultimate value in inter-religious dialog. Understanding another's position, understanding their own and being better able to articulate their own position are outcomes of the dialog. The ultimate value is not truth but understanding. Separately, In part, David, this is what I understand you to be saying about meaning. Whether there is meaning is a fundamental question for evaluating any system belief. Meaning flows out of a personal beginning. If there is not a personal beginning then there are no personalities, no person hood, no individuals to make choices. There is no reference for good and evil. There is no difference in the outcomes and no consequences for actions. No reason for afterlife. Is it correct? Dutch

Truth is not the ultimate value in inter-religious dialogue.

(I shouldn't do this the addict said.) David, The stories I tell are eclectic and any conceptual framework is jerry-rigged. If I can stay centered then I only do this for the exercise. I'll risk this one more time. Without a personal beginning, all that exists would be impersonal. I don't think this statement is true. If it were you and I would agree but we don't so it is not true - at least between us. And, yes, in my view it's "truthfulness" does depend on us. This impersonality may be mass, energy, or motion, but all equally impersonal. It makes no difference which you start with. As soon as you accept this impersonal beginning everything is reduced to these impersonal factors. If all is impersonal, how do the particulars have any meaning? Nobody has given us an answer to that. If that is not a cry for help then is it the right question to ask? I wonder. But to your question of how can an impersonal beginning lead to anything personal I think Walter Goldschmidt in Bridge to Humanity: How Affect Hunger Trumps the Selfish Gene has a good answer. He describes how several strands in the development of hominids came together around the nurturing relationship of mother and child. Walking upright, grammar/toolbuilding - I believe there are four and do not have my book handy (I have been moving) This confluence, fueled by the mother child relationship, created the conditions for such as culture, knowledge and learning, and morals. God learned about the power of love as mother and child learned about the power of love - in the process of life itself. Victors write the meaning of history. Perhaps then the rest just live it. Dutch

And I have asked to be Where no storms come, I'm waiting. Maybe six months. Hopkins brings to mind those schooled echoes. Pick a memory and google the whole poem. No wonder of it: sheer plod makes plough down sillion Shine, and blue-bleak embers, ah my dear, Fall, gall themselves, and gash gold-vermillion. and THE WORLD is charged with the grandeur of God. It will flame out, like shining from shook foil; It gathers to a greatness, like the ooze of oil Crushed. Why do men then now not reck his rod? Generations have trod, have trod, have trod; And all is seared with trade; bleared, smeared with toil; And wears man’s smudge and shares man’s smell: the soil Is bare now, nor can foot feel, being shod. A celebration of the sounds of words!

Hi Joseph I'm back in small ways. Makes me think of an 9-year old making stilts with a power saw and no adult supervision.