Adi Gibb

Hi Janet, Okay, getting back to the original post, I have a way I have adapted to Christian music. In secular music terms I have a system that I call the "Prat Paradox". That is there are certain bands and acts that, as people, are just tools, but I enjoy their music a lot. A prime example of the Prat Paradox is the band Oasis! Now, in terms of Christian music, I have a similar paradox, the "Gaither Paradox". While I know that the theology behind much if not all of the music that comes out of the Gaither Vocal Band and its many off shoots, I ignore that, treat the song as a mirror rather than a window (also how I read the bible) and enjoy the music for the spirit of loving Jesus. A prime example of this is the incredible song written and sung by Mark Lowry, fast becoming a Christmas standard, called "Mary Did You Know". This, on the face of it, is SUCH a literalist song, making assumptions that I don't necessarily hold to and some I think are a little unhealthy to believe in (such as "One day he will rule the nations")but the spirit of it, asking Mary if she knows, when looking into her baby's face, just how special that child will be, is, that she is looking, metaphorically or literally, at the face of God! Anyway, that's my take on it. Works for me. Adi

G'Day Bill and g'day everyone, I have been reading this topic and I think it is a very important point which Bill has raised and which needs to be analysed. From my personal take, I think I see a middle ground. I think the TCPC point, in using the word 'orientation', should be looked at. What is 'orientation?'. In the Merriam-Webster dictionary it is defined as: 1 a : the act or process of orienting or of being oriented b : the state of being oriented; broadly : arrangement, alignment 2 a : a usually general or lasting direction of thought, inclination, or interest b : a person's self-identification as heterosexual, homosexual, or bisexual <sexual orientation> However I am not sure if this is the presumed definition of TCPC. For me, when I read the word 'orientation' I read, I guess, 'biological and sexual inclinations present from birth'. So when I read that point I take as its parameters those gays and lesbians and even trans-gender people who have innate inclinations, as innate as my inclination to be straight for instance, but are margainalised and excluded by some elements of society. If this definition is the definition one applies to 'orientation', I have no problem with the point whatsoever. BUT, if the definition is more "a usually general or lasting direction of thought, inclination, or interest", then there may, as Bill points out, be an issue, as this can indeed include various sexual practices which may be considered against generally held morals etc. Orientations are different, say, from deviancies! So where do we go then? If the second definition stands, then I think it becomes a matter of consent. So to use some of Bill's examples, pedophilia and incest are not sexual 'expressions' which contains the consent of the other party, well not usually. Sado-masochism could, I guess, be considered to be okay if both parties consent to the activities. Ultimately, it is the consent which makes the activity fall within the parameters of an acceptable orientation. I have gone on a bit but that is how I see it. With my own definition of orientation, the point is fine. With the dictionary definition maybe there is scope for clarifying the point, perhaps even being more specific (open to heterosexual, homosexual and trans-gender seekers) or choosing another word than 'orientation', maybe 'identity'? Thanks for this Bill, this is is a great point you have brought up! Adi

That's true. Maybe I am an MSCPC! Metaphysical Santa Claus Progressive Christian!

Agree with everything you have said here Bill. Tony Campolo says there are two thousand scriptures relating to helping the poor, and that it is that which Jesus wanted us to focus on and not, in Tony's words, "Pie in the sky when you die by and by". So you will have no arguments from me that Jesus wanted us to concentrate on 'earth as it is in heaven'. And I think the default position on this kind of thing which is, and importantly is MEANT to be, beyond human cognisance, should be an agnostic one. I guess my point is just that, do your searching, do your questioning, seek differing points of view and then formulate your own framework in which you feel comfortable about the afterlife. You are right, this is something that is completely speculative, but I don't think we should be bound by scientific method in dealing with it. I guess, for a soundbite, This is about belief, not bunson burners! Still in shock about Santa mate! So all those letters? Adi

Hang on...what's that you say about Santa? Seriously though, to play devil's advocate I think one could mount an argument that science, at least Quantum Physics, entertains the notion that existence continues after bodily death in the idea that 'information' can never be lost. Indeed, it was this 'law' of physics which undid Stephen Hawking and his black hole theories. Pullman, in his Dark Materials trilogy beautifully captures this notion when the dead decide to become particles and blend in with existence rather than live a sterile and hell-like existence in 'heaven'. Of course, the question is what is an afterlife? Pullman would assert that particles mixing with the breeze is an afterlife, but what we really mean maybe is a consiousness (!) and I think that is the key! So I think science would say that at least on a molecular level we do, indeed, have a continuity after death, that is not a cognisant one, it is faith which deals with the concept of a 'knowing' afterlife. This, as Billmc says, comes down to faith. My faith, as I have stated, believes absolutely and whole-heartedly in an afterlife and, to be frank, a million scientists could trap me in a canyon and try and convince me otherwise and they wouldn't. Thought long and hard, had my experiences and done my searchin, happy with where I am on that. Actually I like the quote that was on TCPC recently from Dan Brown: "The more science I studied, the more I saw that physics becomes metaphysics and numbers become imaginary numbers. The farther you go into science, the mushier the ground gets. You start to say, "Oh, there is an order and a spiritual aspect to science."" I love the spiritual aspect to science! But it is not its forte. Hey, Hawking now believes in parallel universes, which was once the stuff of science fiction, so maybe it is getting there! For now though, I guess I am ultimately agreeing with Bill, don't look for an knowing afterlife in science, that is for the domain of faith, and I reckon all the bases are covered. Adi

Hi again, What I meant is just that there is a strong tradition of reincarnation in certain aspects of Judaism, the concept of John the Baptist as being the reincarnation of Elijah is attributed to a Jesus quote in the NT, though one could take that as being metaphorical of course, and there are arguments that at least one of the early church fathers entertained the notion of a transmigration of the soul. Having said all of that I think an afterlife is something which each individual should consider and medidate on in their own way. If there was absolute and undenial proof that Jesus believed in a single linear ascent of the soul and nothing else, I would still believe in reincarnation, as it is simply something I feel compelled to believe in when looking around me and inside of me. As to how that reincarnation or rebirth takes place, that is a long story, and while I have my own interests, who knows! But at one of our group meetings recently a Bahai representative explained their concept. They believe that once one dies on earth the soul leaves and doesn't come back, but they go on to have other existences on different planes, improving oneself, before an ultimate joining with the 'covenant of god'. I found that really interesting. Adi

Hi again, What I meant is just that there is a strong tradition of reincarnation in certain aspects of Judaism, the concept of John the Baptist as being the reincarnation of Elijah is attributed to a Jesus quote in the NT, though one could take that as being metaphorical of course, and there are arguments that at least one of the early church fathers entertained the notion of a transmigration of the soul. Having said all of that I think an afterlife is something which each individual should consider and medidate on in their own way. If there was absolute and undenial proof that Jesus believed in a single linear ascent of the soul and nothing else, I would still believe in reincarnation, as it is simply something I feel compelled to believe in when looking around me and inside of me. As to how that reincarnation or rebirth takes place, that is a long story, and while I have my own interests, who knows! But at one of our group meetings recently a Bahai representative explained their concept. They believe that once one dies on earth the soul leaves and doesn't come back, but they go on to have other existences on different planes, improving oneself, before an ultimate joining with the 'covenant of god'. I found that really interesting. Adi

Hi Spiritseeker, I'm a reincarnationist, and do not see that as necessarily antithetical to Christianity. Adi

I will have to put two: The Meaning of Jesus: Two Visions (Marcus Borg and N.T. Wright) and The Cloister Walk by Kathleen Norris. My question: As someone enormously proud of my Scottish heritage, what is your family heritage?

Hi everyone. On 14th October (my birthday) I will be launching my novel, THE LILITH CHARM, online in the format of a blog, for everyone to read at their leisure. The official address will be http://thelilithcharm.blogspot.com/. So at the moment I am madly polishing to have it ready every spare moment I have. On Sunday I went to a huge multi-faith celebration as the state I am in is celebrating 150 years of existence! Was covering it for Focus, an Anglican newspaper I write for. Not sure if I can attach it here but could paste I guess. Joseph, how should I go about it? Finally I am anxiously waiting to see if my PhD application is accepted and I will be starting that next year! And that is me caught up!