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LibChristian

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  1. Hi TinyThinker, you've been added! Thanks for the note

  2. I completely agree with you mystictrek. That's why churches are encouraged to write their own version (smaller community) and also why no one is asked not to have any statement separate. Putting our faith into words is a spiritual discipline that each individual should do separately. I do it by writing a blog and writing on message boards such as these. The Eight Points, or your Seven Points, or CrossWalk America's Twelve Points, aren't meant for anyone to say "Here I Stand." The very diverse nature of a progressive Christian faith prohibits that. Instead, such statements are meant to say "Here is a community within which I exist. It connects me to a spiritual family larger than myself. Now let me tell you about me." ~ Lib
  3. Well, I can tell you that TCPC, at least, is not trying to make progressive Christianity become a phenomenon separate from the many alternatives to traditional Christianity out there. If you look at our affiliates, we have Catholic, Episcopalian, Congregationalist, Methodist, and Lutheran traditions, for example. No "Church of the Progressive". But groups uniting together to show the world they exist. Especially when sometimes their denomination does not accurately describe them. The purpose is not to start something new, but to show the mind-boggling breadth of alternatives that have been extremely well-hidden in recent decades. In my experience is that there are three main reasons for the progressive Christian movement: 1) Non-traditional Christians are lonely. Non-traditional Christianity is based more around the concept of community than beliefs that can be written down, yet we are ironically fragmented by geography and denominations, among other things. I've spent the last few years moderating progressive Christian dialogues on Beliefnet, Delphiforums, and elsewhere. Over and over we get the same response "Thank you, thank you. I thought no one else felt like I did. I left my church and now I felt so alone." Or "Thank you, thank you for being here. I started to become interested in religion but all I could find was fundamentalist churches, so I just read a couple of Spong books and didn't share my faith with anyone." Later on they'll often ask how they can find (or start) a group of like-minded Christians in their area. So how do you draw people together who are less interested in doctrine and more interested in the experience of living within a faith? All the different alternatives have been reaching out individually with little success. To truly let people know we are here if they want to join us, we have to speak louder than "calling all Low Church Episcopalians" or "calling all social justice oriented Catholics." A lot of people who may be hungering for a non-traditional community don't even know they exist, let alone how to go about finding others like them. Uniting by saying "We are, besides being Christians and Lutheran and ____ and ____, also progressive Christians" provides people who are totally bemused a way to distinguish non-traditional approaches. Now, we could just call ourselves non-traditional. But then an at least vague explanation of that term would be needed too. 2) So many people are not aware Christianity outside traditional Christianity exists. In all my activities I also get a lot of "Wow, I never knew you guys existed. I always thought fundamentalism was not close to Jesus and wondered why there weren't any different kinds of Christians." We have had atheists, agnostics, and other non-Christians say thanks for showing them not all Christians were like the ones in the headlines, and that they have been educated about the choices. How many people on the street know about the witness and examples of Bonhoeffer or Thomas Merton or George Fox? How many know about the historic openmindedness of Congregationalists or the contemplative services of Quakers or the wonderful insights of Higher Criticism or the metaphorical power of the liturgy? Most people don't already know about all the alternatives to traditional Christianity. You do, but most don't. And what do our members do? They point them towards TCPC, sure. But they also point them towards their denominations. They point them towards resources on contemplative prayer, lectio divino (sp?), and taize. They point them towards spiritual works by people in all branches of Christianity, very few of which labeled themselves "progressive Christians" because a lot of them are dead and gone. 3) Numbers lend air of legitimacy. Its unfortunate, but numbers make people give us a chance at explaining why we are, in fact, legitimate Christians. It shouldn't, truth should exist apart from numbers, but it does. And I and many others I know have been told to our faces that we aren't Real Christians - and not by fundamentalists. By secular people. Our ability to be open and genuine about our faith is hampered by the fact that the public is convinced there is only one way to be Christian, and that is authoritarian. This way, I can point to one of the progressive Christian organizations and say "Look, the love-based community-based understanding of Christianity (instead of the authoritarian-based way) is bigger than me and even bigger than all Quakers. There are millions of us. We are Christians and we need to be taken seriously as having valuable spiritual inputs into the national dialogue. Don't tell us to speak only from secular positions because we are not "allowed" to speak from a spiritual position. We do and we can and we should and we will." ~ Lib
  4. Hmm. I think everyone is trying to take the Eight Points far more seriously than we intend them to be. There needed to be some kind of explanation (not definition but explanation: big difference) of progressive Christianity so people could understand what we're talking about. Are we un-fundamentalists? Are we fundamentalist Democrats? No. But these are common misconceptions if you just give the phrase "progressive Christianity" to people and then say "Um....well...we can't really put our faith into words so we're not gonna try." Its not mean to be an exhaustive list, or even a definitive list. That is why TCPC: 1) Plans to revise the 8 Points every few years, to keep it from becoming a stagnant creed to anyone. It already has 1996 and 2003 versions. If anyone thinks they have a thoughtful comment for the board to consider in their next revision, PLEASE post it under the appropriate point here: https://www.tcpc.org/about/the_8_points_1.html 2) As part of the affiliation process, churches are asked to study the Eight Points and then write their OWN version of them that describes who they are as a unique community. Church versions have had more than 8 points, less than 8 points, and radically different language. Its not supposed to be an exhaustive definition or even a definition. But you have to have something written down to explain to people who you are. To give an analogy, its like the Faith & Practice books for Quaker Yearly Meetings (I'm Quaker). We are a noncreedal church. You don't have to recite any statement of faith to belong to us. But we have to explain who we are so that newbies get a sense, a feeling, of what kind of community they're coming into. We just understand from the very beginning that truth is only imperfectly captured in words. The Faith & Practice book doesn't define us, but it does attempt to explain us. But if you don't even have a loose explanation (again, not definition) of progressive Christianity so people get a feeling about who you are...what's the point of trying to become a larger community instead of lonely fractured people and churches at all? :-) Oh yeah, and I love the Eight Point being about social justice. It has the last word. I do wish the 2nd point will be revised in its explanation of pluralism, and it probably will be and maybe in the direction I want. But PLEASE leave comments on the webpage!!! You can see that the early comments were taken into consideration when making the 2003 verson. ~ Lib
  5. I guess I'm harder on liberals when it comes to free speech, because I feel like we ought to know better. I know exactly what you mean FredP! I feel exactly the same way - about most subject, not only free speech. ~ Lib
  6. >Its sad that people feel they have to choose between the narrow fundimentalist interpretation and rejecting Christ altogether. I totally agree mzmolly. In their zeal to get people into heaven, they have often driven people away from Christ as effectively as if they had intended to. For instance, take the C.S. Lewis quote which is used so often: "Jesus had to be God, a liar, or a madman. Those are the only choices." For people that cannot at that point in time accept Jesus as God, or ever accept Jesus as the literal biological son of God or part of the Trinity etc. etc. they say "Ok. I think he was a liar." And that's it. They gave people the choice of "Agree with me or ignore Christ" and lo and behold, some people take them at their word. ~ Lib
  7. >lindalou: My favorite quote from Spong was "my heart cannot worship what my mind does not understand". >Gerard: But is Spong right? That's a good question Gerard! My opinion is that Spong is indeed wrong about this. Even in the revised quotes that lindalou gave. Here would be my revision of the statement: "My heart cannot worship what my conscience cannot accept." ~ LibChristian There are a lot of things I don't understand about God and Jesus and Christianity, and that's okay. But where I have to reject it, is when God is protrayed as cruel or unjust or bloodthirsty. I can worship what I am confused or frustrated or uncertain or even skeptical about. I cannot worship what I am sickened or revolted by. >fatherman: Sometimes its ok to be in a community that loves you more than they agree with you...beliefs change, but love does not. Amen! I'd take a community that loves me over a community that agrees with me anyday. As long as it was real love, and not "I love you so much I'm preaching that you are Satan's minion for your own good" love of course ;-) ~ Lib
  8. Hey everyone :-) Good thread! I would like to second the recommendations of Sojourners, Call to Renewal, and The Interfaith Alliance. There is also Progressive Christians Uniting in California. And the Jewish/Interfaith Tikkun Community. And national advocacy groups of Quakers and the ELCA and I'm sure many more mainline denominations - please add your own denominations! And Soulforce, a GLBT-supporting nonviolent network. Keep the links coming! :-) ~ Lib
  9. >mzmolly: My mother in law, who sent the letter apologized! Imagine that! Molly that's amazing! I've certainly never been able to respond to End Days scare tactics in such a way that I got an apology! You must have definitely been in the right spirit when you replied!!!! If, and only if, you feel comfortable, would you consider posting part or all of your reply to her here? I could use a good example to work from! :-) ~ Lib
  10. Hello Armadillo :-) Your suggestions sound WONDERFUL. I would caution against your pastors suggestion of taking up room inside the conference, as that could be twisted in the media very easily into the headline "Gays Are Against Free Speech" etc. etc. etc. and only hurt your message. However, I think holding a totally peaceful protest would be a wonderful idea. I have some suggestions myself: 1) Besides contacting the MCC as Sophia suggested, check out your local Soulforce group as well. They are the kings and queens (and intergendered royalty ) of nonviolent pro-gay Christian protests. 2) Get Soulforce or MCC or Quakers or some other experienced nonviolent action group to train you guys in how to respond to violent reactions. If you feel secure that your group can abide by nonviolent principles, contact every local newspaper including/especially the independent ones and let them know what's going to happen. Make sure about the nonviolence, though, because a shock-value-loving media may twist whatever it can get its hands on. 3) Make banners utilizing Bible verses. This will get the attention of conference-goers and perhaps inspire/anger some of them to come over and talk to you. For instance, you might put the following "interpreted" Bible verse on a sign: Romans 8:38-39 For we are persuaded that neither death, nor life, nor ... [being gay] shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. 4) Have tons and tons of educational material to pass out. My personal suggestion is that it in fact leans towards your Christianity and not your pro-gay or I'm-gay identity. Here's why: I've once again re-realized from my anti-gay parents how much they think your faith is just a cover-up. For instance, I only recently got my parents to attend a open and affirming church for Christmas and Easter. I really think my mom was expecting an orgy on the altar! But now that they saw how quote-unquote "normal" - now that they saw "Hey, these people are Christians too, who sing the same hymns and read the same Bible I do" I think that made a difference. Whereas, if one of the sermons had even touched on their gay-affirming stance, I think it would've pushed my parents further away. Its certainly not your responsibility to prove your Christian faith to others, but I think it is better to win over an enemy by disproving their false ideas with actions than with words. Again, this is just a personal suggestion of mine. 5) Let us know on this board how it went! ~ Lib
  11. Just for starters, here are some books for which I'd love to "donate" 15%-of-the-price to TCPC: Borg, Marcus. The Heart of Christianity. Definitely the most important as I usually pick up books at local used bookstores, but this one won't be available used for some time and I just can't wait!! :-) Walter Wink, The Powers That Be and other books Thomas Merton writings Some high-quality Bible translations Tony Campolo - heard about him lately, want to read him! Quaker writings can be found on many Quaker nonprofits so that's why I haven't included them here Anyone else got suggestions? ~ Lib
  12. Hello everyone :-) Well, as I've been thinking about how our spending habits have both incredible powers (fair trade, etc.) and what they say about us...I've been making up a list of places where you can buy books online from nonprofits, charities, etc. (Don't worry, I'm working on clothing and coffee too! :-D) And one thing I noticed is that as great as the list at TCPC's online store is, just a few books are missing. If the Center can get these few books on their website we can "donate" 15% of the books' prices without ever doing anything else. So, on this post follows a long list of all the books currently available through the store. My next post will be just a couple I wish the Center would add. Please, everyone add their favorites! Not only could we rake in some work-free revenue for the Center, but we can get ideas for reading material off of each other's recommendations! BOOKS ALREADY IN TCPC'S ONLINE STORE Adams, James R. So You Can't Stand Evangelism?… Adams, James R. So You Think You're Not Religious… Andrews, Andy. The Traveler's Gift. Armstrong, Karen. Buddha. Armstrong, Karen. In the Beginning. Armstrong, Karen. Islam. Armstrong, Karen. Jerusalem. Armstrong, Karen. Mohammed. Armstrong, Karen. The Battle for God. Armstrong, Karen.Through the Narrow Gate. Arterburn, Stephen. Every Man's Battle. Bevere, Lisa. Kissed the Girls and Made Them Cry. Brestin, Dee. The Hoy of Women's Friendships. Borg, Marcus. God at 2000. Borg, Marcus. Jesus and Buddha. Borg, Marcus. Reading the Bible Again for the First Time… Borg, Marcus. The Lost Gospel Q. Burklo, Jim. Open Christianity: Home By Another Road. Cobb, John B., Jr. Becoming a Thinking Christian. Crossan, John Dominic. A Long Way from Tipperary. Crossan, John Dominic. Excavating Jesus… Gordon McBride, Gordon. Flying to Tombstone Binkley, Cheryl Gibbs & Jane Mitchell. Jesus and His Kingdom of Equals… Crossan, John Dominic. Jesus. Crossan, John Dominic. The Birth of Christianity. Crossan, John Dominic. The Historical Jesus. Crossan, John Dominic. Who is Jesus? Crossan, John Dominic. Who Killed Jesus? Crossan, John Dominic. Will the Real Jesus Please Stand Up? Destefano, Anthony. A Travel Guide to Heaven. Yancey, Phillip. Rumors of Another World. Dorrien, Gary. The Making of American Liberal Theology… Ehrenreich, Barbara. Nickle and Dimed: On (Not) Getting By in America Laughlin, Paul Alan. Remedial Christianity… Ehrman, Bart D. The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture Shockley. Donald G. We Ask Your Blessing… Campus Occasions Rubenstein, Richard E. When Jesus Became God Butcher, John Beverley. An Uncommon Lectionary Eldredge, John. Waking the Dead. Ethridge, Shannon. Every Woman's Battle. Weems, Renita J. Just a Sister Away. Webb, William J. Slaves, Women, & Homosexuals. Gerd Theissen, Gerd. The Shadow of the Galilean. Giles, Richard. Re-Pitching the Tent: Reordering the Church Building. .. Hahn, Celia. Uncovering Your Church's Hidden Spirit Armstrong, Karen. A History of God Johnson, Elizabeth A. Women, Earth, and Creator Spirit. Johnson, Luke Timothy. The Real Jesus. Meier, John P. The Roots of the Problem…(A Marginal Jew Vol. I) Keck, L. Robert. Healing as a Sacred Path. Keck, L. Robert. Sacred Quest: The Evolution and Future of the Human Soul. Kelly, James L. Skeptic in the House of God. Krakauer, Jon. Under the Banner of Heaven. Kushner, Harold S. When Bad Things Happen to Good People. Lewis, C.S. Mere Christianity. Limbaugh, David. Persecution. Lundblad, Barbara K. Transforming the Stone: Preaching… Martin, Joan. More Than Chains and Toil: …Enslaved Women. Maxwell, John C. The 21 Irrefutable Laws of Leadership. Meier, John P. Companions and Competitors. Meier, John P. Mentor, Massage, and Miracles. Nicholi, Armand M. The Question of God. Strobel, Lee. The Case for Faith. Trigilio, John. Catholicism for Dummies. Pagels, Elaine. Beyond Belief. Pagels, Elaine. The Gnostic Gospels. Picknett, Lynn. The Templar Revelation. Richard Holloway, Richard. Doubts and Loves: What is Left of Christianity Griffin, Victor. Enough Religion to Make Us Hate… Sanders, E. P. The Historical Figure of Jesus. Borg, Marcus. Meeting Jesus Again for the First Time… Spong, John Shelby. A New Christianity for a New World… Spong, John Shelby. Born of a Woman. Spong, John Shelby. Here I Stand. Spong, John Shelby. Liberating the Gospels. Spong, John Shelby. Living in Sin? Spong, John Shelby. Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism. Spong, John Shelby. This Hebrew Lord. Spong, John Shelby. Why Christianity Must Change or Die. Steinfels, Peter. A People Adrift. Thompsett, Fredrica Harris. Living with History. Tobin, Robert, ed. How Long O Lord? Christian Jewish and Muslim voices… Trible, Phyllis. Texts of Terror. Wadud, Amina. Qur'an and Woman. Christ, Carol P. She Who Changes. Wondra, Ellen K. Reconstructing Christian Ethics…
  13. Thanks for the article! Yep Bush's true interests are certainly coming into the light. Personally, I believe in faith-based charity - under the OLD guidelines. Under the pre-Bushite guidelines, any church could create a separate branch that was separate from the church. That branch would be classified as a non-sectarian charity within which proselytizing could not happen. Faith-based charity went on like that for decades. The Catholics and the Salvation Army and everyone else created their own branches and did fine. Bush didn't add any respect of faith-based charity - he added allowance of proselytizing. Hopefully, we can get that administration out and the OLD guidelines for true faith-based charity back in. ~ Lib
  14. Hi everyone! Oh come on, I know there's more people out there except for me, BrotherRog, Rizzo and Gordon! Some of these threads have 89 views - even for doubling for each of us there's a lot of you just lurking and we need your input and viewpoints! :-) So...let's get these boards hopping! Why don't we all answer this questionaire? 1) Do you consider yourself to be a progressive Christian? Why or why not? 2) Where do you live? If you're under 18, please don't be any more specific than your city and do NOT give us your school or your last name. Its not safe 3) What do you do for a living? What do you do outside of your wage-earning job? 4) How did you find out about these boards? 5) What are you looking for as you post here? 6) What on Earth do you think this icon means? 7) Tell us anything else you want to about yourself ~ Lib
  15. (continued, sorry Rizzen I'm long-winded! ) Now. I can’t tell as a person who’s just read two Internet posts who you really are or what your sexual orientation really is. But personally, I think your own words have shown that you may be of a bisexual nature, because you were able to be attracted to BOTH men and women, i.e. that you are able to have romantic, passionate feelings about both of them. Do you know why bisexuals have a lot of success in “ex-gay therapies” or otherwise “changing” in the way you say you have? Because they are already “wired” so to say, to be in love with a person of either sex. They can either 1) with therapy, merely concentrate on the opposite-sex people they are attracted to and look for a committed relationship with those people, or 2) they find an opposite-sex person to be in love with and lose interest in looking to the same sex for potential mates. Gay people can’t do that. They’re not wired to fall in love with a person of the opposite sex. I again urge you to read Mel White’s biography, where he describes more than 30 YEARS of trying to fall in love with his wife romantically – and it didn’t work. He tried electrocuting himself, he tried isolating himself on an island and yelling at his father in his head like a "Christian therapist" told him to do, he tried considering suicide to end it, and he tried dozens of other ex-gay therapies, and all he could feel was a friendly or brother-sister love for her. And that attempt to live in a heterosexual marriage ended up hurting the entire family. Now, you may have been a gay man and truly changed! Or you may be one of the products of ex-gay therapies that eventually can’t stand it anymore and take drastic harmful steps because of their desperation. Or you may be a bisexual that’s managed to just concentrate on women for that once-in-a-lifetime love. Or you may have been a normal heterosexual teenager that starts wondering if they’re gay because its such a hot issue – and the more they obsess and worry about it, the more they think they truly were. I don’t know! But I do know two things: 1) The Bible is very, very ambiguous on whether it condemns committed, love-based (as opposed to lust-based or pagan-worship-based) homosexual relationships. 2) Many gay people have found an acceptance from God that they don’t find from people, and they are God-loving, ethical people in loving relationships raising families (often composed of children that heterosexuals wouldn’t take in!). So…what do I do with that? ~ Lib
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