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grampawombat

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Everything posted by grampawombat

  1. I just finished God and Sex by Michael Coogan. It was published last year. In it, I think he comments on all of the topics discussed on this thread. One of those is the Romans 1 passage that many claim "proves" that homosexuality is condemned by God. Coogan makes many of the same observations that Spong made in The Sins of Scripture to refute this claim. As to talk vs. action: The Presbyterian Church USA has now made it possible for LGBT candidates for the ministry to be ordained. In that, it joins various Congregational, Lutheran, and Episcopal denominations. Because of the emphasis on participation of clergy and lay representatives at all levels (local, regional and national) in the Presbyterian decision-making process, getting to this point required a lot of talk. But I suspect that, more than that, it was the result of people's minds being changed by first-hand encounters with LGBT people in their churches and elsewhere. So I am reluctant to "let go" of the topic.
  2. Today, the PCUSA(the denomination I belong to) made it possible for LGBT candidates for the ministry to be ordained. For 37 years I have been a very small part of the effort that brought this about. I can't say I am proud, because, after all, pride is a sin, so I have heard. But I'm awfully pleased.
  3. Kath, in post #15 you commented "So, you mean you belong to a church that really isn't collectively all that evolved? Well, I hope you win the vote." Perhaps my comments on the topic of denominations should go elsewhere, but it is in response to the above, so here goes. The PCUSA is the largest Presbyterian group. It is the result of a merger of the old "northern" UPCUSA and the "southern" PCUS. This happened in 1983, and the denomination has been much more conservative (or whatever term you prefer) ever since. But things are improving. Some other denominations are doing better. I assume that most of the JSS folks are Episcopal, so you are more familiar with that situation than I. It appears to me that the Methodists have been slower at coming around than the Presbys, but I am not certain. The various Congregational bodies (UCC et.al.) decide issues on a church-by-church basis, but overall appear to be more accepting of LGBT folks than my denomination is. Recently the main Lutheran body (ELCA) took a pro-LGBT stance, but the other Lutheran groups (e.g. Missouri Synod) are a long way from that. There are American Baptist congregations that are pro-LGBT, but most are not. The Quakers are generally supportive, and may be the most progressive of all (they often are). Oh, and the U-Us are almost all pro-LGBT. We are about to move from Ann Arbor to the Puget Sound area, and will be looking for a new church home. So I went on line and googled "gay friendly churches." I found quite a few in that area in several denominations.
  4. Hi Kath. You asked, "Being a Presbyterian church, I wonder how they preach the bible and avoid the whole 'abomination' thing." Then I think it was Nick who provided some links that are probably very helpful. But I wanted to respond with some personal reflections. In Leviticus, abominations were particularly associated with worship of other gods. So if a man had sex with a male cult prostitute in the Temple of Baal in order to insure a fruitful crop from his fields, that was such an act. And it is my impression that the Hebrew word that the KJV translated as "mankind" was actually intended to describe such a person as a male cult prostitute. There are half a dozen or so passages that are supposed to indicate "clearly" that homosexuality is sinful. One in particular is from Romans 1. JSS discussed it in some detail in The Sins of Scripture. I'm biased of course, but I don't think any of these passages, even if taken authoritatively, actually prove the case. But that brings up the question of the nature of Biblical authority, and my experience is that there is a wide spectrum of beliefs in the PCUSA in that regard. Among the Presbys that I hang out with, proof texting is not held in very high regard, for example. Right now, the denomination is dealing with a proposed change in the Book of Order regarding who can be ordained, and whether language that excludes LGBT folks should be removed. Twenty years ago it wasn't even discussed, but this year it is going to be a close vote, which says to me that the denomination is moving in the right direction. Don
  5. I belong to a "More Light" church. It is one of a small percentage of Presbyterian (PCUSA) congregations that supports full inclusion of people in the life of the church without regard to, among other things, sexual orientation. Does that help?
  6. Thank you Nick. That was marvelous. Vintage Colbert.
  7. The PCUSA church that I attend is progressive in every respect. However, it is in a university town, and that is true of most of the denominations. It is a More Light Church, which means it affirms the right to full participation in the life of the church without regard to, among other criteria, sexual orientation. In addition to the denominations cited above, there are also progressive American Baptist and ELCA (Lutheran)congregations here.
  8. We have no way of knowing. But what works for me is the possibility that the afterlife is simply the solution to a set of engineering problems.
  9. I hope it is ok if I change the subject. Grammawombat and I just returned from two weeks away. During that time we had a reception to celebrate our 50th wedding anniversary. Our three kids, their spouses, and our eight grandchildren were there--part of a group of 75 people who shared the experience with us. The kids (all in their 40s) said some wonderful and touching things. At times, there was hardly a dry eye in the house. I think it was as satisfying an experience for everyone there as is was for Gramma and me.
  10. isn't sure what TCPC means by status. What are you looking for?

  11. Ada, many of your ideas are similar to my own. Did you ever see the movie Groundhog Day? Bill Murray is an egocentric, insensitive guy who keeps living that same day over and over until he finally gets it right. Then he is able to move on. Another possibility: Arthur C. Clarke (of 2001 fame) wrote a book called Childhood's End. In it he describes the next stage of human evolution as a race that can communicate telepathicly to the point that they eventually lose their individual physical selves into what he calls the "overmind." I don't relate to this exactly as he describes it, but it got me thinking that eternity is, putting it mildly, a very long time, and I think if we were confronted with it in the next life it would fill us with dispair. So perhaps to survive, we will combine our thoughts with everyone else's in some way, and in doing so see ourselves from the standpoint of those whose lives we affected. So we would have to live with the knowledge of how those we wronged felt. Just some thoughts.
  12. From the February 2010 issue of In These Times comes the following: "Homosexual sex carries a 14-year maximum sentence in [uganda], but the new [bahati] bill adds the definition of 'aggravated homosexuality,' which would carry the death penalty. This would apply to 'serial offenders,' those 'living with HIV,' anyone who uses drugs or alcohol in the commission of the crime, and anyone who has sex with someone who is disabled or under 18 years of age. The bill also adds prison sentences for anyone who 'promotes homosexuality' or knows of it and fails to 'disclose the offense,' including parents that fail to inform on their children." Certainly, a person who has HIV and has sex with those who do not is putting them at risk, but the death penalty? The same holds for sex with minors or the disabled. Isn't this a bit of an overreaction? And what is a "serial offender?" Does that include gay couples in monogomous relationships? And would having a glass of wine with sex be grounds for the death penalty? And since I am a member of a Protestant congregation that supports LGBT rights, am I a "promoter" of homosexuality and therefore subject to going to prison? Calling the proposed law the death penalty for being gay may be an overstatement, but not by much. It is clear that both the present and proposed laws are grossly homophobic.
  13. As others have, I am inclined to call myself agnostic on the question of an afterlife, but I do have some speculative thoughts. I was an engineer, and I still tend to think like one, even after over a decade of retirement. For me, the issue is consciousness. It either has to be durable (it's around here somewhere, even if the body is gone--and we have to find it) or replicable (it's gone but we can reproduce it). Either way, if and when my consciousness is recovered, I call that afterlife. And recovering it seems to me like and engineering problem. The problem might take millions of years to solve, though. However, if there really is a God, maybe that will speed the process up. Like I said, it's just speculation.
  14. There is a composer named Brian Wren. I'll try googling him and see what I get. I belong to a More Light Presbyterian (open to all) congregation, and though we are seen by many as on the far "progressive" end of the spectrum, we still sing and enjoy many of the hymns from the Presbyterian hymnal.
  15. About ten days ago, I had some nasty cells removed from my nose, but the chunk they removed is healing pretty well, and is almost filled in. This is my second experience with cancer, and the first was over ten years ago. Perhaps with a little luck I won't have another such experience for another ten years or so.
  16. Yesterday we celebrated one granddaughter's eleventh birthday. We had pizza (not so good for grandma wombat and me) and an icecream cake for dessert. The latter was with our extended family--ourselves, our daughter's family of four (including the birthday girl) and a wonderful pair of women who have a two-year-old who is a joy and delight to all of us. We are fortunate to live in a community in which all sorts of family relationships are cherished and supported.
  17. There was a movie on Archbishop Oscar Romero a few years back. It starred the late Raul Julia. There is also one on Dietrich Bonhoeffer, but it was never in wide circulation. "Doubt" is worth seeing. Then there was one called something like "The Third Miracle" with Ed Harris. It was a little preachy, but the acting was good. These aren't exactly "biblical" but they all have religious themes that are generally worthwhile.
  18. A reply to post #139 I have been to, and occasionally participated in, several interfaith worship services over the last several decades. Some have been wonderful experiences. But for me the most meaningful ecumenical endeavors have been related to justice issues. I think there is enough moving between denominations that, at least among progressive (or liberal if you prefer) folks, there is little if any interdenominational enmity. There is enough of that within denominations.
  19. I'm going to shift the discussion slightly with some (sort of) random thoughts. Ecumenism is with us in the form of many organizations supported by several congregations. Here in Ann Arbor there is the Interfaith Coalition for Peace and Justice (ICPJ). Most of the congregations that are involved in it are toward the progressive end of the scale theologically, but not all. Also, there are individuals from churches over a very wide theological spectrum who participate in ICPJ's programs. My religious experience has included working with Presbyterians, Methodists, Disciples, UCCs, Episcopalians, Lutherans, American Baptists, Quakers, U Us, and Catholics. Some of these experiences were brief, but others lasted for decades. Some of my graduate work was in a seminary consortium that included all of the groups mentioned above. I no longer see much point in one big progressive denomination. People have too much invested, both financially and personally, in staying with what they have. When congregations become marginally viable, their members should give serious thought to merging with other congregations that share the social and theological perspectives, without regard to denomination. There are greater variations within the denominations than there are from one to another.
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