This is a question I've thought about a lot but have arrived at no real answers. There are still Christians today who think that menal or emotional problems are caused by "evil spirits" or just "demons." I think these people are wrong, and they get very defensive when I point out that their idea boils down to "invisible monsters are making people crazy."

BUT, in the gospels, Jesus appears to confirm this idea. He talks to people who are quite clearly mentally ill as though he is cleansing them of evil spirits. Does this mean:

1. Jesus, too, thought this was the case and this is an example of the human aspect of Jesus being limited in its knowldge (CS Lewis, for example, believed that Jesus asked "who touched me?" when the woman touched his robe because he honestly wanted to know)?

2. Jesus knew better and was just using the language and concepts of the day to explain what was going on?

3. The fundies are right?

Jesus here.

Thank you for asking this important question about mental illness vs. demons. In reverse order, the answers to your questions are this:

3. The "fundies" are not right.

2. I did know better. I also never spoke about evil spirits or demons, because my faith and trust in a God of Perfect Love would not permit me to do so. (It was my beloved but very stubborn disciple who added the dark side to my teachings.) However, I was hard pressed to explain the medical science behind mental illness, as there was little framework in other people's vocabulary, not to mention the fact that I didn't understand the medical science very well myself. (There were no neurologists, neurophysiologists, psychiatrists, psychologists, MRI's, fMRI's, or SPECT scanners at the time, so knowledge was scanty.)

So how did I know it was science, not possession? It was a case, pure and simple, of trusting my angelic guides, who patiently reminded me again and again that although the science was hard to understand, it fully explained the symptoms of psychosis.

Little known fact -- before I began my spiritual journey in earnest, I spent two years under the tutelage of a Greek-trained physician. My medical training came in very handy when the angels began to talk to me about healing miracles.

1. I would certaintly agree with the statement that I was human and didn't know everything!

Love Jesus
September 14, 2006

Well of course, Jesus operated out of/lived in his times. So if 4th Century people couldnt' understand mental and neurological illnesses they had to attribute it to something. So would Jesus, who lived in/and was educated in the times. Jesus also did several more or less bizarre things with mud and spit for instance.
I think that I heard this was a "treatment" for illnesses back when. Another thing he did, was send the demons possessing Lazurus (?) into pigs and drowned them. The poor pagan guy who owned these pigs wasnt' compensated for his losses. I think bizarre except in relation to the times where pigs are unclean, and so on.

I have epilepsy (controlled now by medication).
According to Biblical thought, I had demons. So demons are somehow controlled by Tegretol (an anti-convulsant)?!?! Why would demons be controlled by medication? Are they fooled somehow?
Do demons just get dopey? :-) And why are they controlled better by one medication over another?

There are promising new treatments for mental illness involving medication. For instance, depression is about 80% controlled by medication. Also there is a type of therapy called "cognitive" therapy which is very helpful in depression. Why would demons listen to that vs another type? There are new drugs for schizophrenia, which is no doubt, a physiological disease effecting the brain. Most of them have nasty side-effects at present. But someday perhaps there is a cure for this illness. Does this mean the demons of schizophrenia are somehow overcome?

Unfortunately this thinking has not helped in terms of sigma of mentally ill and neurologically impaired people who are somehow thought to be deservign of all this. But Jesus didn't start it. He just grew up in those times. If he came today, he'd probably throw away the medications! Say something like "You don't need these anymore. You are healed!"

BTW, my sister used to think I needed an exorcism. I haven't discussed this lately, so I don't know if she still thinks that. I don't want to find out!! Undoubtedly fundamentalists and also less educated people (my sister is not less educated), like this as an easy answer for disturbing symptoms.


--des

Ummmm . . . if I felt that way about medical science and modern medications, I wouldn't be posting channelled messages on the Progressive Christianity site. I'd be floating around on the sites that promise people instant, miraculous healing. Proper use of medication, in my angelic view, is one of God's great gifts to humankind.

You're right about the stigma, though. Individuals need appropriate, non-judgmental treatment for serious diseases like major depression and schizophrenia. That's one important way to make the world a better place.

Much love,
Jesus
September 15, 2006

Dear Jesus,

In the posts above, you neglected to mention another possibility: that there is both possession and mental illness. Now, which is which and how do you tell? Francis McNutt, a long time professional in the healing ministry advises that anyone doing that sort of ministry have a knowledge of psychology and/or advisors who have such training to that the difference can be detected.

It doesn't have to be "either/or".

M. Scott Peck, author of People of the Lie was a psychiatrist who, despite all his training and experience, found that there were some cases (not all by any means) which made no sense unless we used the concept of "evil". He found it made some issues and how to work with them clearer. Good book, check it out.

One of the errors of the past is what Isaac Bonewits' has called "monothesisism", i.e. the mental bias that holds there is only one explanation for a phenomenon, only one set of tools to work with it. The fundies make that mistake when they blame all mental problems on demons. Seckies (the secularist version of fundamentalists) make a similar mistake when they blame no mental problems on demons. We all need some humility.

And if you don't think there are "stranger things on heaven or earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy" (be it religious or materialist), just look into modern physics. If that doesn't convince you anything is possible, you just aren't listening.

No, I would be advising no one to throw away medications. This is not scientology after all. But we live in a fairly pharmaceutically oriented culture. Therefore, it might be logical if Jesus healed someone in the 21st Century, he might say something like "throw away your meds, you are healed". He did say at one point "take up your bed and walk". This seems a little similar. (You don't have need for it anymore). I am not implying by that that we should urge people with mental disorders to go and throw away medications sans some type of supernatural event.

Since I don't believe in demons I have a bit of a problem suggesting it could be "both".

I am perfectly ready to agree there are things we don't understand. For instance, why do people grow up evil, without conscious, with apparently normal parents, et??. It happens. Is it purely some misfiring in their brains that causes this? I think we have found that people with very abnormal brains can and do function normally. There are many mysteries of human psyche that I don't think we will ever understand fully and they include things like just what consciousness is and why we have it. But I am not inclined, when confronted with some mystery, to go and say "it's demons". I believe it to be a prescientific/irrational view. I don't think though that one can say they understand everything and all things are totally reconcillable with
linear thought though.

I also can't necessarily throw schizophrenia, the most common mental illness, into a sort of half demon realm because it doesn't seem real understandable. I have seen cases where the person takes one of the newest drugs and completely (almost presto bingo) becomes normal. How is that explanable via demon possession? Even partly? Sadly the current drugs are loaded with blood toxic side effects. (I've heard very sad cases of people put on the drug become well, or perhaps controlled, and then develop some life threatening anemia and end up committing suicide.) This does not mean future drugs wouldn't work or solve that issue.

One more thing:
It's very bad for the case of the stigma of mental patients to pull out demon possession when there are already enough hurdles, without any sort of concrete proof. It just does damage. They have huge issues in the family, getting and keepign jobs, etc. I'm sure the current fundamentalism rage isnt' helping matters. If I thought for any moment that demon possession was a useful idea (even as metaphor) for mentally ill people then I would suggest. I just don't. I think we can have mystery in the mind and hearts without pulling it out specifically for people with mental and neurological disorders. Or perhaps you hitting a little close to home for me to take this in some nice object way.

BTW, call it another stigma but the vast majority of mentally ill people are not in any way violent (those that are get a LOT of press). Most of the people that fall in the "evil" category usually have nothign that is in any standard list of mental disorders, except perhaps psychopaths. I don't think psychopaths are what someone asking about this topic would be thinking of, and I think it is questionalbe that they are mentally ill in the usual sense anyway. There are also cases of murderers eating people and the like. I still dont' think most of those have any sort of mental illness either. Although we would agree they are "sick".



--des

Me either and me too!

It is hard to get around that, I guess. If someone made an impassioned plea of why I was
going to hell in a handbasket (btw, it has been delivered :-)) for what I believe or don't
believe--well it's hard to get thru with me, when I don't believe in a literal hell.
I believe in metaphorical demons I guess. But I have difficulty when you attach even
these to mental illness or epilepsy, say. It gives it a worse name than it already has.
The physicians first law is to do no harm. I sure wish that that applied to religion as well.
I'm perfectly willing to believe that the "universe is not only stranger than we imagine
but stranger than we can imagine". But I see no need to plop demons in there, like
we need them to add to strangeness. :-)

--des

Des, that's a keeper!

Love Jen

Jesus here.

Sorry, dear friend, but I have to bring out the angelic Tough Love here. It certainly does have to be "either/or." This is a Progressive Christianity site, and I, Jesus, post here and only here for one reason -- on this site, people of faith are willing to bring their faith into alignment with the modern world. Many things in the modern world are problematic to the soul, but most of the problems that cause the greatest grief are no different today than they were 2,000 years ago, or even 5,000 years ago. Believing in demons causes a lot of grief. Believing in demons causes great distress to your soul, since your soul has unequivocal trust in the loving heart of God the Mother and God the Father. Your soul is hardwired into your human biology, and every time you tell yourself or someone else that you believe in demons and possession, your soul induces your brain to release stress hormones into your body. These stress hormones are not good for you over the long term. In other words, what I'm saying to you from my angelic perspective is that you can literally make yourself sick by worrying about demons. To counteract the effect of your own stress hormones, I recommend stress-relieving activities like exercise, playing fun board games, listening to upbeat music, and hanging out with friends.

Hope this helps.

Much love to you. Much love to the Mother and the Father. Amen.

Love Jesus
September 17, 2006

It would seem to me that if one believes in guides whether of the angelic or celestrial realm or astral realms then demons would also be a reality to that person. It seems to me that our individual identity is no more than a compartmentalized consciousness. This being so, then it is possible for that consciousness to be considered by most as 'good' (supporting peace and life) or 'demonic' (supporting the lower elements of fear, anguish, guilt, apathy, shame, suffering and those qualities that are destructive to life).

Each individual identity is able to have an influence on the 'other' if allowed by the 'other'. This being the case then one could reason that if we can be guided by angelic beings, the same is true of demonic beings. (compartmentalized consciousness as beings but not necessarily in form that can be seen) Having said that in no way prevents mental illness from being inherrent in the individual consciousness without 'outside' demonic influence. Possession comes into play as a word when one becomes so obsessed with the lower energies mentioned above that they are destructive in nature and the individual is entrained and unable to get release from that energy without assistance. The destructive energy now appears to be 'inside' and one calls that person possessed. Is that one really possessed by another? I think not in the literal sense.

Having said all that, in my view, if one is in search of truth and on a direct path, there will be no 'spirit guides' positioned along the way either angelic or demonic. That which is reality is beyond all form yet is essential to all form. There is no need to seek it as it will be revealed when obstacles obscuring it are removed rather than acquiring anything new. In my experience, there are many side paths and all seem to eventually point to the same results. Personally, it seems to me most direct to look neither for demons or angels or 'guides' but rather concentrate on the exposing and transcending of self-created barriers to truth itself.

Just a point of view to consider.

Love in Christ,
JM

I also don't buy into the whole concept of "guides" (except human ones) on the astral or otherwise plain.
It strikes me as new agey. And I don't tend to buy into to many new agey type things.
In the end, they seem to combine various traditions, not that I am opposed to that per se, but combine
them into some kind of dubious mix.

But yes, IF you believed in such guides then demons could follow. I just don't.

And IF you believed such things then I'd don't see why the medical/ and demonic wouldn't go together.
Although it beats me how you then rationalize various successful treatments of mental disorders. Does the
demon just go hiding? And I don't care for the stigma such ideologies bring forth. IF I thought it would help the individual involved, then I would embrace this stuff, but I dont' see how it would, even in a metaphorical sense.

Other models allowing for the medical treatment; assistance and involvement by the family and friends; exercise and nutrition; and involvement in meaningful work and social actiivity; as well as spiritual and creative activity to me offer the most help and support and the least amount of community fear and mistrust. The above doesnt' rule out factors we can't understand (which might even include the parcularities of brain functioning), it doesn't live there.


If you want a model, at least use one that doesn't do harm. Yes, thank you, I think it does make sense for "religion to do no harm", Jenn.

--des

While the idea of demons is problematic for most of us, I do use the word demonic to describe certain tendencies in humanity which are not God's will. We have to discern what is good and what is evil, what is angelic and what is demonic. Discernment requires a lot of prayer and reflection and study. We all fall short of the glory of God and pointing fingers at others is always wrong. We need to look within ourselves for what is good and what is evil and hopefully make progress along with the rest of the human race. We can not do this alone. We need to be accountable to others who we can trust and grow with. I believe that participation in a dynamic group process built on faith and reason is absolutely necessary for spiritual growth.

Hi Mystictrek,

Perhaps much of our problem is due to our tendencies to try to discern what is 'good' and what is 'evil'. The temptation to do so and eat from that 'tree' seems to me to be the pinnacle of man's downfall. Perhaps it is wiser to see choices and consequences. Perhaps if we look more at things this way instead of as opposites such as 'good' and 'evil' with definitive demarcation lines that were stationary for all times and societies, there might be considerably less finger pointing. Just some thoughts for one to consider.

Love in Christ,
JM

POINT 8: By calling ourselves progressive, we mean that we are Christians who recognize that being followers of Jesus is costly, and entails selfless love, conscientious resistance to evil, and renunciation of privilege.

So there!!

Actually, though, I think your point is useful and is a great clarification. Bonhoeffer said we ordinarly choose not between right and wrong but between right and right or between wrong and wrong.

I don't have a problem with the idea of the demonic. It's just when it gets attached to a physical being,
as if that being were some creature (image: red, small wings, horns, nasty mouth, sharp teeth, etc.)
and perhaps scenes of pea soup vomit and a head spinning 360 degrees.

Though I still do agree that often are choosing between right and right and wrong and wrong (or in the case of politics, the lesser of two evils).

I also dont' think, despite stereotypes to the contrary, that the vast majority of people with mental illness have anything to do with the even the demonic, let only demons. That largely this is an illness where the individual suffers and families suffer because their loved one is suffering. Not because of any violence or untoward acts.I think research would bear me out here.


--des

I take Jesus casting out demons as a metaphor. The demonic is everywhere and must be challenged in very gentle and humble ways but also authoritative ways. This is a dynamic process usually requiring many years or at least months or days. The Bible stories make it seem like magical moments of liberation but that's symbolic. The reality is that healing happens through humble and compassionate relationships over time. Open minds are required. People who make swift judgments about another person's behavior are usually wrong. We have so much to learn about human behavior. It's a mystery.

I think Jesus was using the terms familiar to his audience to talk about mental illness, including the word demon. For instance in Luke 11 after he healed the man who was mute--he says when an evil spirit has been cast out, the room of the mind has been swept clean and put in order--but then the evil spirit returns with more of its kind, and makes the person worse off than before. That image has always puzzled me somewhat, unless he means it's not enough to rid yourself of a destructive thought pattern, you have to actively seek to fill the space of the mind with positive, nurturing energy (the kingdom?). Perhaps Jesus saw mental illness as being possessed not by an autonomous force of evil, but by the negative emotions of others.

Perhaps Jesus was teaching that exorcism is not the way so much as "speaking life" into the sick--loving them into wholeness. On a larger scale, there is no "salvation by elimination" --which seems to be a basic flaw in all forms of fundamentalism-- whether that of the Islamic terrorists, and that of relying on military force to end it.

And this is an excellent example of what I'm getting at. I'm not saying all disease is demonic. But I'm unwilling to say our medical science is so all powerful that we can explain it all. Maybe Jesus was using language familiar to his audience. Or maybe we're using language familiar to ours. Maybe we're both using metaphors neither of which are totally descriptive, but are useful in dealing with a problem.

After all, we can't see a demon, we can't pull one out and nail it to a specimin tray.

But then, we can't do that with a "destructive thought pattern" either.

Exorcism is a complex ritual that often gets results.

So is psychological counseling.

Let's be humble and admit that none of our human fields, not psychology or religion, are sufficient in and of themselves. They each bring insights, knowledge and practices that we need.

I don't believe that either medicine ( or talk therapy-- though I think it's successes
are pretty much limited in real mental illness anyway) always gets results. You'd be an idiot
if you believed that, and I don't think anyone does. The problem, imo, is taking an irratianal
and unreasoned view (I mean this in the strictest sense of being NON rational), is that
it does two things:

1. Preposes to place mentally ill back into at least a partial world of demon possession ideas
that do not do provide any advantage and instead enables stigma. Anything that enables stigma,
would have to be very powerful and very definitely true to want to take it on.

2. Purports there is possibly no cure for certain diseases (ie schizophrenia) because there is not
a current one or posits a possible cure outside the realm of medicine and behavioral science.
(Don't work on that, it's demons). Or perhaps it is just too hopeless.

At one time all cancers were beyond the realm of any medicine, now a certain percentage
are, and the cure is often as bad as the disease. Does this mean that cancer is demon possession?
Or does it instead mean that right now we do not know of or understand cancer well enough to
be able to cure any of it without also somewhat killing off parts of the person (their white blood
cells, their hair, etc.)?? I think this is a good analogy to mental illness as we have very little knowlege at present of the nervous system,etc. (with the possible exception of some valuable new
classes of drugs).

Btw, I am speaking of real mental illness and not the stresses of daily life and so forth (not usually things that are even dealt with in talk therapy. For schizophrenia, talk therapy is worthless (except as support).

I also see one option for Jesus' response, the incidents are myths to show the power of Jesus. He has power to cast off demons. That's God power. We are left with something a little less than air tight about Jesus'
exorcisms unless you believe the literal word of the Bible, which I don't.

BTW, I don't think exorcism does work. I think any careful analysis of any type of "results"can be shown to be the result of wishful thinking, the placebo effect, etc. Generally clients for exorcism are uneducated and able to suspend disbelief for the process. In fact, I have heard of even those who claim the exorcism does work but actually describe fairly limited gains anyway that don't even seem to be the result of any progress at all.

I see demon possession as an argument something like this: We can't claim to understand everything. (Gosh I hope not). So lets go back to the middle ages or earlier and pull out this nonrational explaination to
help us explain stuff. You want mystery? Go read about the origin or meaning of consciousness. That should
keep you busy. If that doesn't do it for you, go read up on some neuroscience.

BTW, I see the explanation of "negative emotions of others" very painfully close to what was once termed
schizophrenigenic parenting and "refrigerator mothers". About 20 years ago, nothing was known about the causes of autism (little is still known but it appears complex), so parents (mostly) were said to have
caused their child's autism. These mothers were said to be cold and impersonal (some may have had
autistic traits). So the problem of having an autistic child was added to by the problem of being the cause of it in some unknown way. Children were sometimes institutionalized away from their parents to "cure" their autism. Now we know one major thing, and that is the only people who can really help a very young severely autistic child are these same parents. I know a mother of a 26 year old autistic son. She still worries that she caused her son's autism, although she has been told otherwise many times since.
The same happened with families of schizophrenic young adults.

The above shows the dangers that the wrong explanations can bring. These kind of things have consequences which can be real.



--des

The mind and the body are truly one. Some spiritual thinkers actually refer to "the mind body". Schizophrenia and other major mental illnesses are due to basically,the juices not squirting correctly into the brain, causing certain areas of the brain that control certain behaviors to misfire and nor respond"correctly". Just as someone who has diabetes has an insulin problem that can often be corrected with medicine, some mental illnesses can also be corrected or stabilized with treatment. Just as some diseases are too far gone for medicine to help much, so are some mental illnesses. Others are not. Bi-polar disorder is classified as a major mental illness. for many less severe types it is corrected with medicine and they lead normal lifes, with many around them not even knowing they have a mental illness. Considering the stigma attached to mental illness, who would want to announce it?

Jesus healed the blind and other diseases. As mentioned in this thread, mental illness and things like seizure disorders were probably called "demon possession" by a people that didn't know better.

I am not just blowing hot air here, I spent 10 years as a mental health social worker working primarily with the seriously mentally ill, mostly schizophrenics and severe bi polars. I also had some "traumatic brain injuries" or TBI foks on my case loads. They were just as normal as you or I, they did something like hit their head on a windshield in a car accident, and now the juices in their brains no longer worked correctly. Their "mind-body' no longer functioned properly and they were on my case load because they now displayed schizophrenic like behavior.

One note though. There were a couple of cases that were so atypical that the shrinks just couldn't nail it down. The labs didn't check out, the symptoms didn't check out, they smelled bad no matter how often they bathed, and in one case there was huge amounts of green expectorants. So "Asian's Traveler" may not be too far off. behind close doors, I saw experienced Psychiatristss and Psychologists throw there arms up in exasperation and say if there such a thing as "demon possession" this or that case exemplied it. They just couldn't put it on paper or their professional license would be in jeopardy.

Jim, I think you and I have some personal link to this stuff so we are bound to take it a bit more
"personally". I myself was misdiagnosed as schizophrenic about 20 years ago or so, was placed
on anti-psychotics and so forth. In the process I met quite a no. of schizophrenics (which is one
way I figured I was not one). But I also share a link with these people thru personal experience.
The symptoms can indeed be mystifying. But the false dichotomy between mind and body is what
started this all in the first place. I have even heard of schizophrenia as being a very severe
autoimmune reaction (people with schizophrenia often have high amts of histamine in their cells).
I think this is probably not a good lead, but it does show just how complex the mind body relationship
is. Often schizophrenics are very sleep deprived as well. Perhaps a symptom but certainly will
complicate matters (along with very poor diet, smoking, lack of exercise-- often in the extreme, etc.)
I think organizations that provide social networks, jobs/ job training, etc., and supportive counselling are very good, and this is what I was involved with way way back when.

The thing we know for sure that has done the most harm is stigma. One of the chief sources of stigma
1. the person is somehow responsible for being that way in a way that people with diabetes are not (even
though for maturity onset diabetes, lifestyle probably figures more prominantly). And two, the idea in the
back of many people's heads that this is caused by demons. This sets the person aside as not fully human or controlled by human activity.

I think the thing Jesus did do, is that he was able to see these people, however, ill, as part of the human community. In the same way that he touched lepers and sat with them (btw, lepers in the Bible may not have all had leprosy but may have had many diseases or illnesses
that set them apart). For me, this was the "lesson" that applies to all of us.

Do we really want to go back there?

I admit there are particularly puzzling cases, but it IS possible they are very rare diseases. (There are groups of "orphan diseases" that only maybe a few hundred people in the world have.) As can be imagined research into these is often nonexistent, the rarer they might be. I had a student once with such a disease and only 100 people in the US had it. Consider the highly publicized cases of pregeria (kids with early aging). The only reason there is this interest is the clues it might give to regular aging. Or something like the total immune shutdowns. These things don't cause dementia or anything, but we know that some odd illnesses do cause schizophrenic like symptoms. I doubt we'll sort this out for a long time to come.
I know there are cases that are quite comfusing, but due to these orphan disesases and the complexity
of the neurological system which does control secretions and gland function, I don't think I'd be
handing these cases to the exorcist either.


--des

Another myth surrounding mental illness is that mentally ill people are more violent than others This is not true. They are no more prone to violence than are others in their socio-economic group.

I work in a prison setting now and the inmates are mostly "personality disorders". The "juices" in their brains and their brains function normally for the most part. They are "personality disorders" because their minds think in a twisted manner. They are much more dangerous than the mentally ill.

I just thought of all the news casts where they always identify a mentally ill person. They ought to identify the non mentally ill too. So if someone just did a strange murder, they would announce "This person has no record of mental illness'

One doctor I know actually stated that if he wanted to live in the safest neighborhood possible
he would live in one which was entirely schizophrenic. (It isn't often safe for the people
with the illness though, since suicide rates a high.) He stated that all psychiatrists knew
this as wards of the most seriously schizophrenic patients (back when there were such wards),
were commonly run by the tinest nurses.

Though there are highly publicized cases to the contrary (mostly involving those who are
paranoid), the public mostly thinks that most schizophrenic people are violent and anti-social.
I felt very safe at the center with the mentally ill people, many who were not too well controlled
medically. The weirdest thing that happened was the *very* large no. of very strange
propositions I got which mostly went somethign like this: "You are a very nice girl. Come
to my apartment and let's f***". No dinner or anything. :-) I also probably had my life's dose
of second hand smoke, as many schizophrenics are very serious smokers (I think tobacco is kind of a tranquilizer.).

Sociopathic and psychopathic types are another thing. They can be charming. They can be murderers. And they often hold public office. Then there is something else, there is the disconnect that sometimes comes
with beliefs. There were stories of Nazis who were loving husbands and fathers going to work each day
persecuting Jews. If they believed we were all part of the same human family, such actions would have
been impossible. But I don't believe even that belongs in the realm of demon possession. It is quite demonic though.


--des

Sociopathic and psychopathic types are another thing. They can be charming. They can be murderers. And they often hold public office.

Des, you gave me my belly laugh for the day with that sentence.

I have major, major qualms about taking isolated cases of unexplained medical illness and using "demon possession" as a catch-all wastebasket to explain rare diseases that aren't understood yet. I side completely with Des. Major mental illness is very complex, and stigma is the last thing individuals need. I worked in the mental health field for five years, and in that time I saw the miracle of modern antidepressants and antipsychotics at work. I remember particularly well the case of a woman with severe post-partum depression. It was so severe, the psychiatrist concluded she was suffering from a psychotic depression. Before this woman was put on an atypical antipsychotic (Zyprexa), she couldn't function at all, she couldn't bond with her child, she looked haggard and dishevelled, and her husband was frightened by the severity of her illness. After she'd been on Zyprexa for about 2 months, the turnaround in her mood and behaviour was so astonishing that I hardly recognized her. She'd returned to a state of normalcy and was able to participate lovingly in the care of her child.

If you haven't heard of the strange case of the Jefferson Island disaster at Lake Peigneur in Louisiana in November 1980, check it out. The story is so bizarre as to defy belief. In another age, this disaster would have been called the work of God or the Devil. But everything that happened is explained by simple science. It's a wonderful reminder to all of us religious/spiritual folks not to jump to medieval conclusions about anything in science, including human physiology, which is also guided by scientific principles (even though we don't fully understand those principles yet).

On November 20, 1980, Lake Peigneur was a freshwater lake that was only 11 feet deep. By November 22, Lake Peigneur was a 1,300 feet deep saltwater lake. Miraculously (and I don't use the term loosely), no one died when a Texaco drilling rig in the lake accidentally opened up a hole in the roof of a salt mine 1500 feet below the surface. As lake water poured through the small hole in the mine roof, the salt began to dissolve, and soon the gaping hole acted like a giant bathtub drain. A geyser of compressed air erupted from the salt mine, and a huge whirlpool appeared on the surface of the lake. The whirlpool sucked loaded barges down (most of which later popped back up like corks!), pulled 65 acres of land off Jefferson Island, and turned a 12-mile-long canal into a 50-foot-high waterfall that poured Gulf saltwater backwards into the lake and forever changed Lake Peigneur's biology.

Yeah, eh? Can you imagine how dumbfounded the local citizens must have been? Can you imagine how much worse it would have been for them if superstitious folk had come along and told them science couldn't possibly explain what had happened, but aliens or demons could? Talk about a way to free up some Louisiana real estate real fast.

Love Jen

Okay Jen I stand chastised but I am relaying what I saw and heard. We are talking about severe cases where schziophrenia was diagnosed or schizo-affetctive disorder just because nothing else fit, where no psycho -trophic worked or was irrelevant, where massive doses of tranquilers couldn't quiet them down, in one case there had been contact with the dead, verified by a priest who had tried exorcism and failed, in another case satan worship that involved cannibalizing a baby, etc.

I am not talking about post partum depression here or fundamentalists labeling anything they don't like as "demonic", I am talking about some really strange stuff. And the other other dynamic happening here is the shrinks agreed they may NOT be mentally ill, these people had dabbled in the supernatural , went too far, and their heads cracked and a whole bizaar demension of ugliness that we don't understand opened up.

I hate to sound creepy here and if you have seen my other blogs, you may have noticed that I am not given to supersition or silliness. These are cases that go in the "unexplained phenomena" category.

I met these clients in a locked down state mental hospital, by the way, where authorities were aware of any crimes that had been committed, and the people were there instead of being in prison. After many many years being locked down, they both re-entered society,inluding the person who cannibalized a baby. Real "Hannibal Lector". "Charles Manson" type stuff.

I agree there is the Hannible Lector element. It isn't at all common (whew!), and I am sure these
people aren't mentally ill in the usual sense, even though almost everyone would say they are sick.
I have no trouble in saying these cases involve evil, but I dislike the notion of personifying evil into
a creature like Satan or demons. For one thing, it implies that personalized evil creatures exist.
I also think there is plenty we don't know about how the mind works, esp when people immerse
themselves in evil activities and thoughts. BTW, I don't believe in contact with the dead, even if a priest
"verified it". The only thing I could say was that the person must have been extremely convinced/convincing
that he had contact with the dead.

There are various, for lack of a better term, "switches" in the brain that stop us from doing whatever
we think. You see what happens in ADHD when kids basically do whatever they think of doing (mostly
it is saying what they think to say, touching stuff,etc) or in more serious cases like Tourettes' where people
sometimes say swear words and racial slurs. What if someone thought about
stuff that people don't generally think about (like eating babies), and then that switch wasn't turned off
that would go from thought to action? I mean we know there are people with various sexual fantasies that most people do not fantasize about, sometimes become action? We could maybe assume that some tiny fraction of people do think about stuff that would freak out most people, and then a smaller subset of that group would actually do it. I don't claim to understand why that might be though.


On a less rare note, there are kids (and adults) that immerse themselves in things like Nazism and white supremacy. These people sometimes do act on these ideas, even today. They aren't mentally ill by any definition. I would gather it starts harmlessly enough. They go to a website, say. And then they start spending more and more time in that "community". I think one thing we do know about them is they are not
really connected to real communities. (Perhaps the same could be said for the terrorist bombers.)

There is evil, for sure, but what the nature of evil is, is another subject.

It is also one thing to say that these very small selection of cases is evil or demonic and then generalizing
to the vast majority of mentally ill patients and saying they are demon possessed. The center where I was
had no such cases, afaik, and they worked with thousands of mentally ill people. I met odd folks, no question, but they were mostly harmless and mostly pretty garden variety in the kinds of delusions
they had.

Even though mental illness is a very bad thing to have, I wouldn't put it in the category of evil. I think
the people you speak of (or Neonazis for that matter) are in another group. They may get locked up like
common criminals or severely mentally ill people but that doesn't make them so.


--des

Jim, I believe you. I believe you to the core. I apologize for not making it clear that I trust the truth of your reporting. The creepy kinds of things you've seen are the same kind of creepy thing that led me to press with all my channelling might for answers to explain them. For a long time -- maybe four years -- after I first began to channel, I had no clear explanation for the kind of bizarre phenomena you've described. In the absence of any other feasible explanation, I went, by default (though I now regret this) to the idea of evil energy or demonic forces. There just didn't seem to be anything else to pick from. And the Bible talked about demons, so I thought I was on safe ground. But Jesus taught me otherwise. That's why, as I've mentioned on other threads, I go with neuroscience as my starting point.

I know the kind of hospital unit you're describing. In Canada, they sometimes put the scariest of the scary psychopaths in the forensic unit of the psych hospital because nobody knows what else to do with them. I haven't worked in such a unit, but I have my own protracted personal experience that taught me the hard way just how frightening and unpredictable the mind of a psychopath is. If I hadn't had firsthand experience with the terror tactics of a psychopath, I'm not sure I would have understood Jesus when he told me the answer to human evil lies in the human brain. But I couldn't ignore or deny the look in this particular person's eye (not to mention her inexplicable behaviour). I had to face the fact that she liked herself the way she was. Then I had to deal with it. To deal with it, I needed to understand how she got so badly off course. That's where my channelling came in.

Jim, you make the point that some of the patients you saw had dabbled in the supernatural, went too far, and their heads cracked. That's what I've been saying here, too. There's grave danger to one's mental and physical health when one plays with mystical fire. I can explain how this happens, neurophysiologically speaking, and if anybody would like the nitty gritty details, let me know.

The spiritual question for the rest of us is . . . how can we help ensure that other human beings don't end up so f***** up? Society would be a lot safer and happier for everyone if we learned how to prevent such tragic brain damage in the first place.

Love Jen

Des, Just to make sure you know where I am coming from, I don't believe in a the literal, tradtional devil. I think humankind chooses constantly between the good and the bad. Our choices are for the spiritual or for the egoic every minute of the day. We are all children of God, and as children of God ,divine. I do take the biblical passage "The Kingdom of God is within". literally.I am not a worshipper of the angry male sky God who punsihes , torments, and burns people he doesn't like in hell for ever. I don't think I have ever personally said that anyone was demon possessed, even before my beliefs became very progressive.

I wish I could say more about these two cases that the shrinks gave up on but confidentiality laws prohibit it. One of these individuals has passed away but the other case was somewhat famous many years ago with books and some TV appearances so I can't give any more details.Plus I was attacked by this individual and they know where I live. There were some pre-cognitive and extra sensory things going on here too. But if you don't want to believe any or all of it, thats fine. I wouldn't have believed it either.


The point is as rational and scientific as we may be, there are some things that are unexplainable. The human mind is capable of incredible manisfestations.
For instance, in Vodoo, if some one puts a curse on a vodoo beleiver, the curse is likely to be successfull. If the curse is put on a nonbeliever, the curse is likely to be unsuccessful.When people start dabbling in the dark side of things bad things just might happen. Things that can't as of yet be explained scientifically.

The two shrinks I mentioned had no further scientific explanation for the symptoms they were seeing. In exasperation, they called it "demon possession", probably for a lack of any better terminology.

Personally I would call it, "unexplained phenomena ".

As for our society, as Jen mentioned, that is why we have to work for a lovable sustaining society so we stop producing Charles Manson's and Jefferey Daumers.

Jim, I didn't think you had used the idea of a literal physical devil or demon but others here
appear to have used the idea (unless I got them wrong).

Yes, I would definitely put it in "unexplained phenomena".
I think "belief" does play a part in various phenomena that you mentioned (say Voodoo).
It is related to the placebo effect, in that if you believe in something it is possible it will
help (or hurt) you.



What you describe with these prisoners is probably exceptionally rare.
Yes, the mind is exceedingly strange.
Thank God.



--des

The "mind-body" is a very strange organism. Most people desribe me as mellow and laid back but if I have too much caffeine I get argusome, irritable, my blood pressure goes up , and am difficult to get along with.

I stopped drinking any sort of whisky many years ago becaue it makes me want to fight.If I drink wine I get even mellower and start telling jokes that if I wouldn't be able to remember otherwise.

Another interesting thing about that study on voodoo, that I didn't mention, was that sometimes the people who got sick or hurt by the voodoo curse, didn't know they had been cursed. They just believed in voodoo. They were in some sort of collective consciousness.

I don't watch creepy crawly movies because they give me bad dreams but many do. (Some I suppose without effect) I catch bits and pieces though and there is some really sick stuff out there. Could some be in some sort of collective consciousness thing where they do believe in a literal devil, hell, and a punitive harsh male sky God who they fear and want to attack? By siding with what they see as "satan" or evil they are in effect rebeling agaisnt the angry sky God that is going to punish them and fry them for eternity?

Jim, you'll sleep better at night if you try trusting your intuition more strongly. Take the things you're thinking and feeling and hold them at a distance. Look objectively for a moment at exactly what you're saying. You're smarter than you think. You've found in your studies that those who believe in voodoo can get sick even though they don't know they've been cursed. This creeps you out. So far so good. It's normal and healthy that you should be creeped out. You need to take your innate wisdom a step further, though. Examine the facts carefully. It's only those who believe in voodoo who are affected by it. This means there's a problem for those who believe in voodoo. For some reason, they get strange illnesses. Step 2 is to go further with your questions and ask God why voodoo seems to work. Is it the voodoo rituals themselves that have power to make others ill? (Certainly a practitioner of voodoo has a vested interest in making you believe this is so.) Or is it the false belief system in the mind of the victim that makies the person ill? Is a mere belief in evil voodoo powers strong enough on its own to harm your own immune system? Is a belief in evil forces so upsetting to your inner soul that you literally make your own brain and body sick? Would believers in voodoo get sick at some point anyway even if no one were to officially cast a curse in them? The answer is yes.

The facts tell you three things: (1) Only those who believe in voodoo seem to be affected by its curses. (2) Belief systems have powerful effects on one's health, either for good or for ill. (3) To help preserve your mental and physical health, stay away from voodoo.

What we put into our heads is just as important as what we put in our stomachs. If our intuition keeps telling us that violent movies are bad for us and our children, we should probably listen to our common sense and not feel remotely guilty about refusing to watch these films. There's always going to be a pop psychologist and/or marketing genius whose job is to convince you you're weak and foolish if you can't take it like a man. To heck with that. It takes courage to buck societal trends and listen to the wisdom of your own soul.

Love Jen

P.S. I don't drink alcohol at all anymore, and I don't apologize for bucking convention when I go out. Hey . . . it's my brain, and my brain just doesn't like alcohol. Caffeine's okay for me, though. So is chocolate!

O.K. Jen I am going to ponder on what you said. I am also going to start another thread on the power and capabilities of the mind as we are drifting (in a good way) from the topic. (if you want to start another thread, go ahead) See you soon.

Yes, this is a thread that is over, as far as I'm concerned. I don't have much discipline in this, unless
I feel there is overt attacking going on though. (which I don't).

--des

I just joined and am sorry to see that this thread closed, as it is one that touches my life significantly -- and is something I currently am struggling with.

About a year ago I was diagnosed with Bipolar Disorder and have found that when in my down moods, I give up on everything spiritual and on any hopefullness for the future.

I don't rail against God for my having this illness, but it does concern me that much of the illness (and the symptoms of) are out of my control and so when I am having an episode I can't see/feel/experience the spiritual aspects of my life that give me comfort when I am not having an episode.

If it were up to me, I would spend all of my life in trying to connect with the sacred and live a Progressive Chrisitan life to the best of my abilities. But it's not my own doing when I experience a set-back and then seem to have to start all over at Square One in building back my faith.

So much of any of the faiths seem to rely on one's ability to freely make a choice on what path they want to pursue, so I feel left out (as I imagine some other mentally ill people do) because often I am not able make my own choice -- freely or otherwise.

- Doug

>Dmac:
>I just joined and am sorry to see that this thread closed, as it is one that touches my life significantly -- and is something I currently am struggling with.

No thread is actually closed. It fell out of circulation more like it.
I said I didn't want to discuss whether mental illness was demonic in origin as I
felt that set things back considerably.

It also touches me. I was dxed as having a severe mental illness, but
later found to have epilepsy. I have been in organizations for mentally ill people. I also am (mildly) autistic.
It's not a mental illness, but it certainly is misunderstood in similar ways. I have had many friends dxed
as mentally ill (schizophrenic or something).

>If it were up to me, I would spend all of my life in trying to connect with the sacred and live a Progressive Chrisitan life to the best of my abilities. But it's not my own doing when I experience a set-back and then seem to have to start all over at Square One in building back my faith.


Strangely, with uncontrolled epilepsy I had more intense religious experiences than I have now. In fact, I had sensory experiences such as seeing sound. Otehr experiences were seeing things in unusual ways. Some of these things I miss. I don't miss being disabled, not being able to work (I kept leaving jobs), and so on. But I miss those experiences.

>So much of any of the faiths seem to rely on one's ability to freely make a choice on what path they want to pursue, so I feel left out (as I imagine some other mentally ill people do) because often I am not able make my own choice -- freely or otherwise.

I feel that a lot of what we take as "free will" is not. We are deeply affected by the physiology of our brains and our early experiences. I still think I believe in free will fro the most part, but I feel there is a limit to it.
I think you have very clearly stated one possible limitation. What do you do? The best you can, I guess. It
is the best any of us can do.

Hopefully, you have some supports out there. Online has new kind of communities that can be very valuable.


>Doug

--des

DMAC - the up and down nature of bipolar disorder gives you a chance to learn how to cope. Basically, you now have experience with the downs and you know, from your own experience, that you will come back up and have the kind of contact with God that you value. If you know that, then the next down will be less hopeless. You may want to write down some reassurances for yourself as well as a list of things that help you get better. Use your brain in a well state to assist yourself when your brain is stalled and negative.

Welcome to the boards and Godspeed.

Dmac:

Having been where you are I can only echo the excellent advice given to you by des and Cynthia. Relish and remember what is given to you during the ups. It is invariably important information. Create new ideas and artistic works if possible and share them with those that you can trust... then prepare yourself for the downs.

This is the other side of the creative process and it can be transcended if you work hard enough at it. Many famous people in history are your companions in this. A strict daily regimen of vitamin and herb therapy, good music to listen to, plus lots of sunshine seems to have helped me the most.

Hang in there. I can't promise you that it will get better, but you can see now that you have sympathetic company here.

flow....

Thanks to all who replied - you have some good ideas and thoughts on how to cope and, more importantly, how to continue to grow despite the moods & times that are out of my control.

And I guess part of my frustration, if I look at it honestly, is envy of those who don't have to deal with this recurring situation. Not to say that everybody else's life is easy, or even easier. I just become frustrated at the amount of medications I'm on and I wish that this particular aspect of my life were taken away.

Thanks again to all!

- DMac

God is everything that is good. And the goodness, which everything has, is God. - Julian of Norwich

Totally understand Dmac - sorry you have to deal with this. Just remember that, even if you don't know about it, everybody's got something. It's just hard to remember that in our bizarro culture where people who are broke buy the most stuff and very very few people are close enough to anyone to share their real trials. I think ( - yeah, easy for me to say ) that sometimes the people who are so uncomfortable that they have to reach out for help have some advantage. I think that's what the scripture about it being easier for a camel to fit through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into heaven is about. Godspeed.