[trek42]

Borg mentions, in most of his books, a concept that he calls "thin places." These are, if I understand correctly, places or experiences where the "barrier" that separates us from the divine is very thin and we can experience something of the Spirit in the now. I guess you might call it a mystic experience.

Have any of you had "thin places" in your journey? If you did, did they just happen or is there something that you can do that makes such experiences more accessible?

I've been a Christian for 33 years but have never experienced anything that I would call "supernatural", out-of-the-body, a sensing of God that was completely unexplainable through natural means, a mystic encounter, or a "proof" of God's presence with me that I could rely on no matter how I felt about religion or the bible.

What have been your experiences of "thin places?" Were you seeking them? Are they still as unexplainable now as they were when you first experienced them?

trek

[Cynthia]

Hey Trek. The "completely unexplainable" is where I think you may be missing it....

You just know - if you let yourself. I could tell you about "thin" times, but they wouldn't make sense to you and wouldn't convince you... they were meant for me and I just Know.

The Love that Surpasses knowledge...

Phillip Yancey talks/writes about using the same evidence to prove or disprove God - you can't do either for someone else.

If you are looking for a thin place, try music, nature, someone you love. Get quiet. Just be. It's ok to think you've lost it... noblody knows but you and God.

Be ready for "the look" if you try to tell someone about it.

Go with God

[AletheiaRivers]

My thin place is the mountains near where I live. I can sit in silence against a really old tree and just FEEL God. Mysticism is my passion.

There is a "Mystical Christianity" thread in the Progressive forum. Some of the posts might offer some insights, but like Cynthia said, a mystical experience is rather hard to explain (ineffable).

The Mystic Heart by Teasdale is an awesome book that explains different mystical traditions and experiences. Also, in the "Mystical Christianity" thread I mentioned, earlier today I posted a link for a websight that has TONS of information.

[trek42]

BTW, if anyone here is interested in going through THOC by Borg via chapter-by-chapter format, I am starting a new group here:

http://s11.invisionf...m/LightReading/

If there is enough interest, we can discuss other progressive books also.

trek

[mgf50]

[
Another thing about Marcus Borg's panENtheism is I don't understand how Marcus can believe God is nurturing supportive loving when God doesn't do anything. Just doesn't make any sense.

M> I too have struggled with the concept of an interventionalist God. Given the suffering in the world, this has never made any sense. I do see God as Love, Compassion, Wholeness, Oneness. This does not mean that God loves me. It means for me, like the Sun is light and Heat, so God is Love and Oneness. It is up to me to be open and aware of this Love and Oneness and live with this awareness. It also means letting go of focusing on myself as an individual.

I have also been impressed with Matthew Fox, especially his via negativa--his idea of acceptance of suffering has a profound influence on my life. I have experienced suffering as a process of purification and growth. Thanks for mentioning "Process Theology", I want to learn more about this.


Marilyn

[DavidD]

mgf50, on Mar 18 2006, 11:25 AM, said:

[
Another thing about Marcus Borg's panENtheism is I don't understand how Marcus can believe God is nurturing supportive loving when God doesn't do anything.  Just doesn't make any sense.

M> I too have struggled with the concept of an interventionalist God.  Given the suffering in the world, this has never made any sense.  I do see God as Love, Compassion, Wholeness, Oneness.  This does not mean that  God loves me.  It means for me, like the Sun is light and Heat, so God is Love and Oneness.  It is up to me to be open and aware of this Love and Oneness and live with this awareness.  It also means letting go of focusing on myself as an individual.

I  have also been impressed with Matthew Fox, especially his via negativa--his idea of acceptance of suffering has a profound influence on my life.  I have experienced suffering as a process of purification and growth.  Thanks for mentioning "Process Theology",  I want to learn more about this.


Marilyn

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I hadn't read this thread before, but skimmed enough of it this morning to realize now the first part of the above is a quote. So that's two more people who don't see God as traditionalists do, as the source of all power, knowledge, love, and goodness that there is. That seems obvious to me from looking at this world, but those who believe in a traditional God are so sure of themselves.

I am not impressed with those who say suffering should be accepted, as if it were divinely ordained, as if people bring it on themselves, whether through sin or through delusions and attachments. As with so many things religious, religious people have grossly oversimplified the meaning in suffering, or lack thereof. Some people can experience some growth from some of their suffering. That doesn't explain suffering or say that excessive suffering is a good thing.

I like two things Borg did in this book. I like his chapter about how faith is not the same as belief. I like how he describes the transformation that is indeed at the heart of Christianity. Suffering is part of that, but to say that's what suffering is for is like saying the internet exists just for me. Yet so much of religion is about making leaps like that.

Even Borg goes on in the rest of this book to focus on beliefs. Some of it is tunnel vision, such as presenting only two possibilities for God, panentheism and something more traditional. In fact the possibilities are countless, and the reality is just one, no matter what anyone believes.

[Lee Tasey]

This is Borg's best. I wrote a long review of it on Amazon. The review name is FireHalen3.

I'm sort of an atheist, yet in the moments when I'm able to believe in G-d, it's when I'm reading people like Borg.

If you read only one book by Mr. Borg, this is it.

Lee

[mgf50]

[

L>I am not impressed with those who say suffering should be accepted, as if it were divinely ordained, as if people bring it on themselves, whether through sin or through delusions and attachments. As with so many things religious, religious people have grossly oversimplified the meaning in suffering, or lack thereof. Some people can experience some growth from some of their suffering. That doesn't explain suffering or say that excessive suffering is a good thing.

M>Suffering seems to be inherent in creation. Life eats life. Creation evolves through the survival of the fittest. From the viewpoint of the individual this is horrendous and terrible. From the viewpoint of the Whole it is more acceptable. For example, I don't like it when people give me cut flowers, I hate watching them die. Hower when they die on a plant I don't mind so much because I see new flowers take their place. Suffering is less painful when you can identify with the Whole which is how I understand God. Hard times are not so bad when I am connected with other people.

Marilyn

[mystictrek]

mgf50, on Mar 18 2006, 11:25 AM, said:

[
Another thing about Marcus Borg's panENtheism is I don't understand how Marcus can believe God is nurturing supportive loving when God doesn't do anything.  Just doesn't make any sense.

Marilyn

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The fact that Borg believes in a very immanent (close) God does not mean that God is not doing anything. God is doing all kinds of things right now, right here, and not from a distance as that stupid song said. God is right here, right now in a very gentle and compassionate and sometimes quite tricky manner. We are transformed by the gentleness, the compassion and definitely the trickiness. God has a fantastic sense of humor and loves to play. The more we laugh and play and dance and sing, the more we are acting like God and indeed being God! When we escape the domination of the ego, we become one with God and we play!

This post has been edited by mystictrek: 22 March 2006 - 12:14 PM

[soma]

"Another thing about Marcus Borg's panENtheism is I don't understand how Marcus can believe God is nurturing supportive loving when God doesn't do anything. Just doesn't make any sense."

Marilyn

I like mystictrek's explanation.

I would say that God the Father or pure consciousness is the all-pervading reality underlying the universe because it has no frequency or wavelength and is beyond space and time. It is un-created so It is the primary cause of the manifested levels of consciousness outside of pure consciousness. Our physical perceptions reveal only a very small part of the universe in which we live, we can't see the primary cause that creates and supports us. Pure consciousness is the highest reality, and material consciousness; the one we perceive with our senses is the lowest.

On suffering I would venture to say:

It is our life intelligence that guides us through the crises of birth, puberty, marriage, suffering and death; it also leads us to reflect on our inner life and our relationship to every man and woman. The intellect can give us a glimpse of the spiritual life inside ourselves, help us resist the exterior influences that blind us with passion and help us access thoughts about God or pure consciousness that are totally new, unexpected and beyond our own capacity. The effect of these inspirations is to enable the soul to approach God beyond the material realm in pure consciousness where everything is one; therefore, suffering is a tool, a blessing or a tribulation that prods us to question and know our interconnections and the uniting force or primary cause may it be pure consciousness or as I refer God the Father.

[mystictrek]

I heard a portion of Frederick Buechner being interviewed by the best interviewer on radio, Diane Rehm. He has a new book out called "Secrets in the Dark : A Life in Sermons" >
http://www.amazon.co...glance&n=283155

He said something profound about finding our purpose. It happens when our deepest joy meets the world's need.

I thought this related to my "play" post above. Did you know there's a sign at heaven's gate which says "Children At Play: No Grownups allowed"?

Max Wertheimer, a Gestalt pyschologist, defines an adult as "a deteriorated child."

You can listen to the interview with Buechner at > http://www.wamu.org/programs/dr/

[soma]

Thanks for the links. Kibran says, "Children are the teachers." They are fresh from the other side while adults are more conditioned to earth.

Children are growing in every direction
Adults stop growing vertically and start growing horizontally

[mystictrek]

XianAnarchist, on Mar 19 2005, 12:40 AM, said:

So, when I talk about "God as mystery," I am talking more from the perspective of knowlege based on "apprehension" than "comprehension."  But, if for a more "comprehension" approach, I would offer the following:

God is the...
Life-Giving Source of Creativity
Unifying Way of Interconnectedness
Abysmally Absolute Other

I like that! It goes back to post #39 from last year.

This string refuses to die ... and for good reason: Borg is PC at its best. He gives us a clarity about who we are which I have longed for.