[Cynthia]

The kingdom of God is spread about the earth and men do not perceive it.... how do you all read that????

[DCJ]

Because the ancient manuscript evidence isn't reliable, it has gnostic influences, and it wasn't accepted by the early church.

(114) Simon Peter said to him, "Let Mary leave us, for women are not worthy of life." Jesus said, "I myself shall lead her in order to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every woman who will make herself male will enter the kingdom of heaven."

[Cynthia]

Jeep - the way I understand it, the politicians did it!!! :> Do people ever change??? I think that a consensus was created at the council of nicene with the initiation of the current tax breaks and special status for churches that signed on to the state sponsored religion. It had little to do with manuscript reliability or God... mostly to do with what worked for the state. Sound familiar?

DCJ - curious... I haven't been able to get any of my friends to find this discussion interesting... if you don't, feel free to opt out

In many "evangelical" churches/writings now, the role of satan is emphasized. He is seen to be an active force in human lives. Given that, if seems so very likely to me that he (satan) would have really put some effort into corrupting the scriptures and the focus of religions. Ex. - the passion of Jesus vs. the life/message of Jesus. Any thoughts?

This post has been edited by Cynthia: 02 February 2005 - 08:42 PM

[BeachOfEden]

The Native American author SunBear exposed this very same fact about mr.James Watts dangerous Rapture beiefs that promotes an anti-earth theology. He explained this in detail in his book, "Black Dawn Bright Day." SunBear wisely points out that Mr.Watts problem as well as all the rapture-bound Conservative Protestants in that they interpretated Jesus words as stating the "End of the WORLD", taken from the Greek word COSMOS. This is positively without a doubt a translation error, as SunBear wisely points out because the orginal Greek word was AEON, which means the end of this AGE..NOT the physical planet.

[des]

BroRog quotes the article by Bill Moyers (btw, isn't Moyers a Baptist preacher?)

Quote

Remember James Watt, President Ronald Reagan's first secretary of the interior? My favorite online environmental journal, the ever-engaging Grist, reminded us recently of how James Watt told the U.S. Congress that protecting natural resources was unimportant in light of the imminent return of Jesus Christ. In public testimony he said, "after the last tree is felled, Christ will come back."

Yes, and he was laughed at. Now people in fair nos. actually believe this-- and as Moyers says they are in high places. (Not sure what extent the popular novels have had to do with this.) Both today and yesterday I have heard very critical factual (yes it is beyond the theory stage) info on global warming, re: on effects to coral reefs and ice caps.
In this climate, nothign is likely to be done. As I have posted here before, people with the best "Christian conservative" record have the worst environmental records. They are really NOT interested in the environment as they will be raptured away anyway. And actually hope for it.

Yikes, I looked up this bizarre thing (the rapture index). Has things on it like floods and so on but here's one of the wierder ones: "32 Mark of the Beast: Wal-mart is falling behind in its plan to bar code all products with radio tags." Wal-mart-- I thought the Beast was Micro$oft!?

Also included is the "Plague index" which discusses the non-plague (unless you are a horse, of course of West Nile Virus).

BTW, the rapture index is 154, I thought it was supposed to blow at 145?

--des

[Lolly]

Quote

To my view, the Quote in Thomas was never said by Jesus. This language is quite foreign to the historical Jesus.

The question for me reflects the debate over the place of women in society, and the nature of their cultural roles.

Just to add a bit of interest, there is a similar story in one of the buddhist sutras, about a princess who reaches "enlightenment". In the instant before this happens, she turns herself into a man.

I agree with you about what this sort of story reflects. I see it as a way of guiding people in a male-dominated society to digest that women can become spiritually accomplished.

I would suppose that, in those times, the idea of a woman advancing in spiritual attainment might have been dismissed out of hand. As such, the message being conveyed by such tales was probably meant to be helpful (if the alternative was that women would be disallowed from participating) but it certainly doesn't read that way to us today.

[RaptureFree]

The Rapture Exposed -- I just finished reading it. It brings reality into focus, and puts fanciful, unbiblical doctrine in it's place. That is to say, there is no "rapture off the earth"... where supposedly millions get taken off the planet, and planes, trains, cars, trucks, etc crash and create death and havoc for those supposedly "left behind".

1Cor 15 explains the passage of 1Thes 4:13, so commonly used to "prove" a rapture off the earth. The passage in Corinthians says only that at the last trump all will be transformed from mortality to immortality in a twinkling of an eye. No one leaves the earth. Indeed, as Barbara points out, it is Christ who returns (visibly appears) to the earth. This is what she calls "the rapture in reverse".

In a book review by Review by G. Richard Wheatcroft, he says the following:

Quote

The meaning of apocalyptic is “unveiling.” The purpose of the Book of Revelation is not to give “God’s play-by-play script for the future,” but to unveil a new vision of life for people who were under the domination and oppression of the Roman Empire and to encourage them to be faithful to God alone. She writes, “Revelation’s proclamation of an impending ‘end’ referred not to the end of the world but to the end of Roman rule.” Moreover, The Book of Revelation is prophecy, which does not mean predicting the future, as dispensationalists maintain, but “timely warning.” The prophetic tradition of the Bible is to speak God’s word of warning of the consequences of injustice and encourage people to return to “God’s vision of justice and generosity for the world.”

Quote

And, continuing from the same site:  She stresses that Revelation was written to counter the ideology of the empire which focused on military victory. The purpose of John in writing Revelation was to oppose Rome’s vision of victory with the vision of the victory of the Lamb of God. She writes, “The book of Revelation deals with the opposition between two kinds of power in our lives and in the world: the power of oppressive systems of domination verses the power of God’s Lamb to bring life and healing.” Lamb power manifests itself in “the power of nonviolent resistance and courage in opposition to injustice; it is the power of solidarity and forgiveness.”

https://www.tcpc.org...ure_exposed.htm

I recommend you read the review, and buy the book. It puts into perspective how "Revelation" is relevant to us today, and to each generation prior to us, and after us, ... in terms of spiritual warfare and overcoming evil...etc.

She is not a "preterist" from what I can tell. She believes apparently that the Roman Empire was "the beast" who persecuted the "woman" (the Church), but does not say that "Roman empire" was tbe only application of "the beast". Her point maximizes exemplifying spiritual warfare in every generation, but because Jesus told John "these things must quickly come to pass", ... he alludes to his generation (John's)... but not exclusively.

I disagree with her application of the "beast" being Rome. First, Rome was not slain the resurrected again. Second, Rome had no false prophet with two horns (figurative or otherwise) which spoke like a lamb, etc. Rome didn't prophecy, as Jews understood prophecy.

However, Pharisees, Sadducees, and the Sanhedrin understood "prophecying", and they were the worst persecuters of the church in that day. They killed the Lamb of God (whom God resurrected), and then persued the Church to kill her. Their "Kingdom" ( leadership, authority -- religous, anyway) was taken away (slain) at Calvary, ... but they usurped power over the nation, forbade their peoples from believing in Christ Jesus as Messiah, forbade believers to buy or sell, demanded that all give allegiance to Judiasm ( Judiasm was NOT the religion given by God to Moses, who was a Levite, not of Judah, the priesthood was of Levi, not of Judah, the book of Leviticus was of Levi, not Judah, the law was given to the Levites, not the Judah-ites (Jews), ... and Moses's religion was never called "Judiasm", which should be the first clue), and attempted to put to death all who believed in Jesus as Messiah ( ie, Saul of Tarsus, stoning of steven, the imprisoning of the apostles, etc, ... for 2 examples).

But her point is well taken -- it's the depiction of spiritual warfare, not physical warfare. It does NOT point to some futuristic "antichrist / world political leader" who physically kills believers, it does not point to some "future tribulation" that never seems to come to pass. It points to spiritual warfare, and to those who overcome spiritually, or are overcome by evil, sin, fear of persecution, etc.

Well worth reading. Hopefully this book and others like it will reveal the foolishness of the "Left behind" series, and faulty interpretations of the Bible, like "Late Great PLanet Earth", and the like.

[RaptureFree]

Brief Post Script:

I do NOT believe this planet is going to be destroyed, nor the skies (heavens) abovve it, and certainly "Gods dwelling place" known as "heaven" will not be destroyed. In the first place, in Rev 20 or 21, John sees the old heaven and earth flee, for there was no room found for them. Where would this planet flee to, where would the sky flee to? And "fleeing" is a far cry from destruction, is it not?

2Cor 5:17 says " for every one who is in Christ is a NEW CREATION; the old things are PAST AWAY, behold, All become NEW".

2Pe 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

2Pe 3:12
Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat ?

The "heavens shall pass away with a great noise" ... a figure of speech referring, I believe, ... to Jerusalem, particularly the temple, temple government (spiritual, religious gov't and all it's "elements")... which of course happened in the bloodiest battle ever known in their day from 66AD - 70AD. ( see Heb 8:13)

"the earth and the works that are in it shall be burned up" (see above ref to the War of 70AD)
"earth", by definition contextually, speaks of man, mankind, a specific region or land, country (see STrong's or Thayers lexicon).
"GE":
arable land
the ground, the earth as a standing place
the main land as opposed to the sea or water
the earth as a whole
the earth as opposed to the heavens
the inhabited earth, the abode of men and animals
a country, land enclosed within fixed boundaries, a tract of land, territory, region

Was not Jerusalem utterly destroyed by fire? Was not the temple destroyed by fire? Was not the temple the central focal point of their relgion, their religious service, (elements)? Did not God judge his people for their unbelief, rebellion?...just as prophecied in Dan 9:24-27?

Look at the word "elements" in Galations and compare it to that in Peter:

Stoicheion 7:670,1087
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
stoy-khi'-on Noun Neuter

Definition
any first thing, from which the others belonging to some series or composite whole take their rise, an element, first principal ( ie, the laws of God given originally by Moses, corrupted by pharisees in a religion they referred to as "Judiasm").

the letters of the alphabet as the elements of speech, not however the written characters, but the spoken sounds

the elements from which all things have come, the material causes of the universe
the heavenly bodies, either as parts of the heavens or (as others think) because in them the elements of man, life and destiny were supposed to reside

the elements, rudiments, primary and fundamental principles of any art, science, or discipline

Look at Galations:
Click Verse for Commentary Notes

Ga 4:3
Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
Ga 4:9
But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage ? ( ie, pharisee-ism, laws NOT given by God, but made up and exaggerated by ungodly religionists, of whom Jesus said "you are of your father the devil")

world: Kosmos:
Definition
an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government ( ie, phariseeism/? )

ornament, decoration, adornment, i.e. the arrangement of the stars, 'the heavenly hosts', as the ornament of the heavens. 1 Pet. 3:
the world, the universe
the circle of the earth, the earth

the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family
the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ

world affairs, the aggregate of things earthly (ie, laws added by pharisees)

the whole circle of earthly goods, endowments riches, advantages, pleasures, etc, (including religous laws added by pharisees) ... which although hollow and frail and fleeting, stir desire, seduce from God and are obstacles to the cause of Christ

any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort ( ie, Phariseeism, also the Sanhedrin, & Judiazers)

the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (Rom. 11:12 etc)
of believers only, John 1:29; 3:16; 3:17; 6:33; 12:47 1 Cor. 4:9; 2 Cor. 5:19

Comare Gal 4:3, 9 with Heb:

KJV In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

NAS: 8:13
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

The covenant was "spiritual". The temple and all it's rites were a physical demonstration of the spiritual. It pointed them to Christ and to the "new creation in CHrist", which they rejected. As Jesus prophesied, the "kingdom of heaven, the kingdom of God" (which is spiritual) was taken from the Sanhedrin & the Pharisees and given to the church (which was started by Jewish believers, Ro 1-2, & Ro 11).

The temple and it's leadership was destroyed "by a fervent heat"... physically, as well as in spiritual judgement.

When John saw the old heaven & earth flee, and a new heaven and earth appear, he wasn't talking about the physical elements, nor the physical earth, nor the physical heavens (skies, stars, the latter of which depict the church & saints in Revelation 1&2, and the "heavenly, spiritual leadership/gov't swept by the tail of the dragon" in Rev 12, as well as the godly leadership/gov't seen in the crown of the woman in Rev 12).
Likewise, when he saw the "new earth" (ge), ... I firmly believe he was referring to the "new man in Christ, the new creation", 2Cor 5:17 w/ Col 3:12-14), ... not a recreated planet.



When Jesus said "blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth", he said nothing about a "new planet", nor of people "going to heaven".

This post has been edited by RaptureFree: 17 September 2005 - 09:14 PM

[October's Autumn]

Can't comment on the book because I haven't read it. However, The book of Revelations (I've read, studied, etc.) I can comment on. Simply put the book is about the expectations of early Christians in their lifetime. Some of it was taking place, some of it they hoped to take place, soon. They certainly expected the end of the world to come to them. The reason it is written like it is is so if it got in the wrong hands it couldn't be understood. That is also why much of the symbolism is either lost to us or simply a best educated guess.

One interesting tidbit. 666 is the number of Neron. Each letter has a value and they add up to his name. Sometimes Revelations uses 616 which is the shortened version of his name: Nero.

[des]

Surprisingly, my fundie (although I think getting to be more evangelical than fundie) sister doesn't think much of the rapture stuff. She used to buy into it, but lately she (jokingly) said "I need to put you in my will in case the rapture comes, of course I don't believe in a pre-tribulation rapture." (I could hear her asking someone "Presbyterians don't believe in that do we?" I also thought it was interesting that she thought of herself as belonging to a specific religious denomination (as this is pretty unfundie, ime), and that she cared what they said.

BTW, everything I have read lately, though admittedly progressive, says that:
1. Relevations is a specific type of apocolyptical writing that was popular at the time.
2, Almost did not make it into what we call the Bible.
3. Is almost certainly about Rome-- Rome circa 200AD not some "nuevo Roman state" like the European Union, if you could even halfway consider that the EU is any kind of union of anything beyond capitalist transactions.

If my sister won't buy it, that makes me think it is way on the edge of lunacy, but I know there are tons of people out there who really believe this sort of thing. I'm sure Katrina has raised some expectations. For the Dow Jones of End times and lots of wacky stuff go to
www.raptureme.com. The actual "rapture index" is bizarre and fascinating to me in a train wreck kind of way.


--des