[October's Autumn]

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I agree. It seems a little weird to me that men would fear us because we menstruate (though perhaps at a psychological level?). I think it's probably more likely that men oppressed women because 1) they are stronger physically and therefore can get away with it; 2) maternal tendencies make it easy to put women in charge of kids and therefore make men "superior"; and 2) because men were jealous of women's ability to create life.

Keep in mind that women's menstruate was a big mystery until modern science came along. Unless the Egyptians (who did autopsies) figured it out I'm not sure how much ancient people knew about it. But it is cross-cultural which suggest possible biological/psychological reasons.

As far as women being in charge of children, that making them weaker is a sociological concept. Women being in charge of children could be a reason to make us/them superior because they are given the power to influence and protect future generations. Much of what we think about as being inferior/superior is not innate but created by society.

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I've also heard what you said about the belief that men had the "seed." I've heard that this was the reason behind a lot of the sexual "ethics" in the Old Testament - men weren't supposed to waste their "seed," it was unethical, I suppose because it was a human being. Therefore, no anal or oral sex (and thus no homosexuality, specifically male-male) or masturbation. I'm not sure if that really is the reason behind the sexual laws, but it's what I've read, and it makes sense in the context of the "seed" idea.

Actually, masturbation is not forbidden anywhere in the Hebrew Bible or the Greek Bible. Although, as I understand it fornication is a catch-all word for any kind of sexual conduct that was not able to produce a child. I do not believe fornication (or its original word in Greek or Hebrew) had anything to do with sex before/outside of marriage. Although I could be wrong.

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We really are lucky to live in the society we do! We may not be considered totally and completely equal to men in some people's eyes, but at least we're better off than a lot of our sisters, past and present.

I agree. Birth control alone puts us at a better position than our ancestral mothers. Especially considering the maternal mortality rate from pregnancy, birth, and post-partum traumas. By limiting the number of children we have we are able to live longer and healthier lives and give proper care to the off-spring we do have.

Twice in my life (that I know of) I would have died had I been born 200 or so years ago. Once when I was 18 months old and had pnemonia. And five years ago when I had internal bleeding from endometrial tumor which had to be removed during an emergency surgery. Now I use birth control to halt its progression.

[October's Autumn]

Gnosteric, on Jun 10 2007, 02:47 PM, said:

In some Gnostic scripture Eve is also known as Zoe (life). Guess what the Archons try to do to her? They try to defile and rape her because she has a power that they don't have. In fact, earlier in the story they (the Demiurge and all the Archons) tried to create life and experienced utter failure. Their spirit-less, material only creation, Adam, just lies there until the feminine force animates him.

I think the Gnostics realized that the oppression of women was closely tied to this envy.

It certainly looks like Gnostics had/have a good insight into why (or at least partially why) women have been oppressed since the beginning of time. Speaking of Gnostics. I found an Elaine Pagels book at Borders. I haven't bought it yet (I think it was just a basic on gnosticism) but I plan to get it and read it.

[Gnosteric]

October, on Jun 10 2007, 06:36 PM, said:

Speaking of Gnostics. I found an Elaine Pagels book at Borders. I haven't bought it yet (I think it was just a basic on gnosticism) but I plan to get it and read it.

In our recent Gnostic meeting, we were laughing about how we have never met a Gnostic that doesn't have a soft spot for Pagels. She helped put the Nag Hammadi texts on the map.....well before it was trendy. Which book are you thinking of getting? I have several.

[October's Autumn]

I can't remember! I looked them up on Amazon and none look like the one I wanted to get. I really want a Gnostics 101.

[McKenna]

Gnosteric, on Jun 10 2007, 03:47 PM, said:

In some Gnostic scripture Eve is also known as Zoe (life). Guess what the Archons try to do to her? They try to defile and rape her because she has a power that they don't have. In fact, earlier in the story they (the Demiurge and all the Archons) tried to create life and experienced utter failure. Their spirit-less, material only creation, Adam, just lies there until the feminine force animates him.

I think the Gnostics realized that the oppression of women was closely tied to this envy.

Wow, that's really interesting! Thanks for sharing!

October, on Jun 10 2007, 06:18 PM, said:

Keep in mind that women's menstruate was a big mystery until modern science came along. Unless the Egyptians (who did autopsies) figured it out I'm not sure how much ancient people knew about it. But it is cross-cultural which suggest possible biological/psychological reasons.

Wow, how ignorant of me. Of course, you're right. That makes a lot of sense, then, actually, that men would be in awe of or somehow jealous of women for being able to stop and start bleeding. Some societies did make a big deal out of it, making the woman "impure" and segregating her from the society while she was menstruating. That makes sense that that came from a fear/jealousy.

October, on Jun 10 2007, 06:18 PM, said:

As far as women being in charge of children, that making them weaker is a sociological concept. Women being in charge of children could be a reason to make us/them superior because they are given the power to influence and protect future generations. Much of what we think about as being inferior/superior is not innate but created by society.

Absolutely, I agree. I just meant it gave an excuse for men to say "see, we're stronger and better, you get to take care of the kiddies while we manage society."

October, on Jun 10 2007, 06:18 PM, said:

Actually, masturbation is not forbidden anywhere in the Hebrew Bible or the Greek Bible. Although, as I understand it fornication is a catch-all word for any kind of sexual conduct that was not able to produce a child. I do not believe fornication (or its original word in Greek or Hebrew) had anything to do with sex before/outside of marriage. Although I could be wrong.

Yikes, my ignorance is showing again! Wow, that actually surprises me quite a bit. I definitely thought it was forbidden. Okay, well, I stand corrected

October, on Jun 10 2007, 06:18 PM, said:

I agree. Birth control alone puts us at a better position than our ancestral mothers. Especially considering the maternal mortality rate from pregnancy, birth, and post-partum traumas. By limiting the number of children we have we are able to live longer and healthier lives and give proper care to the off-spring we do have.

Twice in my life (that I know of) I would have died had I been born 200 or so years ago. Once when I was 18 months old and had pnemonia. And five years ago when I had internal bleeding from endometrial tumor which had to be removed during an emergency surgery. Now I use birth control to halt its progression.

Not to mention that we now have basically the same legal rights as men. We can vote, own property, hold jobs, etc.

Sorry to hear about the tumor I'm not sure if I've ever been in a situation that would have killed me...although I did have epilepsy when I was younger, so there would have been a time when I would have been thought to be possessed.

[Gnosteric]

October, on Jun 12 2007, 05:28 AM, said:

I can't remember! I looked them up on Amazon and none look like the one I wanted to get. I really want a Gnostics 101.

You can’t go wrong with either “Beyond Belief; The Secret Gospel of Thomas” or ‘The Gnostic Gospels” by Pagels. Don't be fooled by the title of Beyond Belief it's about much more than Thomas. I actually would recommend the two of them together.

That said, my first recommendation would be +Stephan Hoeller’s book, “Gnosticism; New Light on the Ancient Tradition of Inner Knowing.” He is an active Bishop in a Gnostic church in California.

There is also a beliefnet book about Gnosticism that works as a quick, light reference intro.

[Gnosteric]

McKenna, on Jun 12 2007, 06:49 PM, said:

Wow, that's really interesting! Thanks for sharing!

When you consider that some folks believe that the Demiurge is what we get when "god is made in our image" and the Archons are the damaging aspects of the worldly (vs Godly) Church, then "we" continue to defile women.