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The Questions I Ask And What I Believe


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#21 TomAllyn

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Posted 28 April 2017 - 08:34 PM

That video is definitely amazing! For some reason it causes me to think of a question I've asked on numerous occasions outside of here to which no one has ever attempted an answer. That is what if evolution is intelligent design? I feel the need to confess that I believe it is.


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“God is not a Christian, God is not a Jew, or a Muslim, or a Hindu, or a Buddhist. All of those are human systems which human beings have created to try to help us walk into the mystery of God. I honor my tradition, I walk through my tradition, but I don't think my tradition defines God, I think it only points me to God.” ― John Shelby Spong


#22 SteveS55

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Posted 28 April 2017 - 10:27 PM

Hi Tom,

And by the way, welcome to the forum. When I was going to Catholic high school, I remember being taught a little evolutionary theory. The Church didn't seem to have a problem with it. I think your idea is similar to theistic evolutionism. Not unusual, just no scientific proof for it.

Steve
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#23 tariki

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Posted 29 April 2017 - 05:00 AM

 

It is more about finding descriptions of that order and understanding the causes underlying that order.

 

 

Great. Thanks. Being at heart the emotional sort, I was deeply moved come the finish.  Thanks again.


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#24 tariki

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Posted 29 April 2017 - 05:06 AM

That video is definitely amazing! For some reason it causes me to think of a question I've asked on numerous occasions outside of here to which no one has ever attempted an answer. That is what if evolution is intelligent design? I feel the need to confess that I believe it is.

 

Hi Tom, I see far too much sheer wastage and dead ends when looking at the evolutionary process to move directly to "ah! intelligent design". Something must have gone "awry" somewhere along the line - which opens the door to the "fall". But again, for me t seems indisputable that things were "awry" well before human beings of any description appeared on the scene. Myself, I get back to what is often discounted as the "mystical"..........Meister Eckhart's "Love has no why". Simply put it is faith, not sight.


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#25 soma

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Posted 29 April 2017 - 12:15 PM

 

Hi Tom, I see far too much sheer wastage and dead ends when looking at the evolutionary process to move directly to "ah! intelligent design". Something must have gone "awry" somewhere along the line - which opens the door to the "fall". But again, for me t seems indisputable that things were "awry" well before human beings of any description appeared on the scene. Myself, I get back to what is often discounted as the "mystical"..........Meister Eckhart's "Love has no why". Simply put it is faith, not sight.

 

I feel we are the 5 blind men describing the elephant each describing a different part with the dead ends and the fall which I feel has different interpretations. To incorporate it in my Chritianity I fell on an interpretation of it that I can live with sorry if it is too abstract. Being metaphoric, the tree of life and the tree of knowledge are simply saying that we benefit by listening to the pure consciousness, the unity of the soul, and debilitated by going the way of the mind. These two trees are located in the middle of the Garden of Eden signifying two different expressions on one whole extensive unity. The whole is the pure consciousnesses that permeates everything and is never-ending that will never die and will live forever even in the objects that are temporary that are in eternity. The Bible says, “And out of the ground made the Lord God (Subtle Energy) to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.” (Genesis 2:9) The Book of Genesis tells us in story form the basic concepts and the accepted wisdom about our relations on the physical plane and the spiritual plane. The fundamental message is that our expansion from the material into the spiritual realm and higher dimensions of consciousness reveals our dual nature when revealed in unity. Therefore; we have two trees located in the middle of the Garden of Eden representing our material and divine natures. The tree of knowledge of good and evil is a metaphor for the thinking mind or our capacity to form thoughts that classify, differentiate and can single out favoritism or prejudice. The tree of life signifies a spiritual plane of consciousness that flows from divine unity and is an inward encounter with the soul and not the outward experience of the mind.

 

Socrates said, “If you don’t get what you want you suffer; if you get what you don’t want, you suffer; even when you get exactly what you want, you still suffer because you can’t hold on to it forever. Your mind is your predicament. It wants to be free of change. Free of pain, free of the obligations of life and death. But change is law and no amount of pretending will alter that reality.” Pain carries information that we will enjoy life more if we would only do more of something or less of something and when we get the message and respond the pain goes away. Our identification with our mind creates boundaries, limits, separation and our suffering, but when we identify with the soul love flows without boundaries as it is made new every second of every moment. An amazing thing happens when we eat of the tree of life because we begin doing what we love and what makes us happy. In the soul we live each moment just being in it, content with what happens as we flow with love as our intuition is alive and clear guiding us to pure joy. The mind creates good and bad, limitations and boundaries, but our soul crosses and goes beyond them to reside in pure consciousness and ocean of love.


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#26 tariki

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Posted 29 April 2017 - 01:13 PM

Hi Soma, there is a passage in the Theraavada Canon where the Buddha speaks of the elephant and the various blind men. The moral of the story - at least according to Stephen Batchelor - is to reject "views". The Dharma cannot be reduced to a set of truth-claims. Only by letting go of such views will one be able to understand how dharma practice is not about being "right" or "wrong". ​Batchelor cites a zen master, who in effect said that any appropriate response to any situation in hand need not relate to some from of abstract truth, pre-conceived and "believed in".

 

For me (as I gravitated towards Buddhism) this relates to the apophatic tradition of Christianity, the "negative way", the way of "unknowing".

 

So, thinking abut it, and the other thread about hunger, an appropriate response in the moment ​may well be simply to give food to alleviate hunger. In THAT moment, it may be THAT simple.


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#27 soma

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Posted 29 April 2017 - 01:22 PM

Some one said better to give a fishing pole instead of food. I feel my dharma is to point out the perceived inbalance causing hunger and the hunger in Christianity. It seems to be my hobby while occupying this body.  


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#28 tariki

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Posted 29 April 2017 - 02:04 PM

Some one said better to give a fishing pole instead of food.


Yes, a fishing rod if appropriate.
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#29 JosephM

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Posted 29 April 2017 - 03:33 PM

Hi Soma, there is a passage in the Theraavada Canon where the Buddha speaks of the elephant and the various blind men. The moral of the story - at least according to Stephen Batchelor - is to reject "views". The Dharma cannot be reduced to a set of truth-claims. Only by letting go of such views will one be able to understand how dharma practice is not about being "right" or "wrong". ​Batchelor cites a zen master, who in effect said that any appropriate response to any situation in hand need not relate to some from of abstract truth, pre-conceived and "believed in".

 

 

Derek,

 

From your post, i recall having a special moment from a writing ascribed to Paul in Romans of the NT which goes like this..

 

 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

 

I remember looking up the word "renewing" in Greek when traced back to the root word Anakaluto which means

  1. to unveil or uncover (by drawing back a veil)      

This renewing of mind is not by programming with something new but rather removing the veil that is covering. Very similar to concept of removing views or preconceived concepts and opinions


"The only separation between you and me can only be in your mind." --Joseph Mattioli


#30 tariki

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Posted 29 April 2017 - 04:12 PM

Joseph, you made me think of the episide recorded in the Gospels of the veil in the temple being ripped apart from top to bottom - this at the monent of the death of Jesus.

I would wish to associate this with the text "behold, I make all things new". Sadly, looking up one or two Christian sites, the ripping apart of the veil announces merely a new set of beliefs and affirmations, doctrines and creeds.

"All things" really do need to "new" moment by moment. Just at the mment I am digesting the life of David Jones ( see the Zen Gardens thread ) who, whie being a true "modernist" was nevertheless steeped in past cultures and traditions.......these he transformed/ transmuted according to his own experiences. Experiences that included the trenches of WW1 on the western front, shell shock and on-going depression and agoraphobia.

"Out of darkness light shall shine". Yes.
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#31 soma

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Posted 30 April 2017 - 04:07 PM

I have observed that the conceived concepts I hold on to keep slapping me in the face until I let them go. 


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#32 thormas

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Posted 01 May 2017 - 07:51 AM

Joseph, you made me think of the episide recorded in the Gospels of the veil in the temple being ripped apart from top to bottom - this at the monent of the death of Jesus.

I would wish to associate this with the text "behold, I make all things new". Sadly, looking up one or two Christian sites, the ripping apart of the veil announces merely a new set of beliefs and affirmations, doctrines and creeds.

"All things" really do need to "new" moment by moment. Just at the mment I am digesting the life of David Jones ( see the Zen Gardens thread ) who, whie being a true "modernist" was nevertheless steeped in past cultures and traditions.......these he transformed/ transmuted according to his own experiences. Experiences that included the trenches of WW1 on the western front, shell shock and on-going depression and agoraphobia.

"Out of darkness light shall shine". Yes.

 

Tariki,

 

I believe I got your point about the veil but there are volumes written by Christian theologians/authors that attempt to present the new and go beyond doctrines, creeds and static beliefs. Such authors include Baum, Hick, Macquarie, Moran, Schillebeeckz, Kung, Gray, Allison, LT Johnson and on and on. Of course the trick i to get it to the people in the pews who have neither the time or interest to do such readings. 


Edited by thormas, 01 May 2017 - 07:52 AM.

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#33 tariki

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Posted 01 May 2017 - 08:49 AM

Tariki,
 
I believe I got your point about the veil but there are volumes written by Christian theologians/authors that attempt to present the new and go beyond doctrines, creeds and static beliefs. Such authors include Baum, Hick, Macquarie, Moran, Schillebeeckz, Kung, Gray, Allison, LT Johnson and on and on. Of course the trick i to get it to the people in the pews who have neither the time or interest to do such readings.


Hi Thomas, yes, my own post offered a counterpoint, drawn from the life of David Jones. There is more to renewal than merely the new, if it is genuine renewal. David Jones sought to re-present the past and its traditions. RE-present, present it anew, in his art and his poems. Each was "the thing itself" and not an attempt to represent anything. Thus, as I see it, he himself was renewed. I think the fact that many who knew him intimately described him as "childlike" holds some sort of clue. The thing is that he suffered deeply from depression, drank rather heavily at times and often gave the appearance of being a tramp, or at least unkempt. Well, there we have the "outcasts" in fellowship with Christ......or Jesus.....or whoever.
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#34 thormas

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Posted 01 May 2017 - 12:22 PM

There is more to renewal than merely the new, if it is genuine renewal. David Jones sought to re-present the past and its traditions. RE-present, present it anew, in his art and his poems. 

 

I agree and have always liked the idea of re-presenting; for (some) readers, it is hearing for the first time - almost as if it were never said before.


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