[mystictrek]

Lolly, on Apr 21 2005, 09:13 AM, said:

This is the stuff that I find both fascinating and intuitively sensible.  I do not know much about taoism but am given to understand that zen and tao do share a lot of common wisdom.  The idea of a changing God, or perhaps a God that manifests, in one way, as change, is not problematic for me. 

In zen it is suggested that nothing is permanent, all is changing all the time.  If we posit a God that includes all of creation, I don't see how it can be any other way except that this God is changing, too.

Perhaps we're too quick to assign the dualistic qualities of good and bad to the idea of permanence/impermanence. 

I think many people tend to feel that a permanent quality of some sort would be "good"... that is to say, it would provide some sort of haven from the unpredictibility of life.  Yet, I have found that when things are really observed, I am hard pressed to find a single thing that is not subject to change. 

Accepting that change is perhaps the only true constant means accepting that, like it or not, we really do walk our respective paths in uncertainty, with no real permanent thing to attach to. 

I think that, perhaps, this desire for permanence is what happens to religions as they evolve.  We want to codify tradition into some set of unchanging rules and forms, because we feel that if we have something to hold on to that doesn't change, we'll find or create a safety zone in that religious practice. 

So we build up institutions to try to clarify what "should be" and to establish rules and protocols with the assumption that there can exist some really True and unchanging Truth that is the same from all perspectives, throughout time.  These rules and protocols become ossified, etched into stone, accepted unquestioningly.  We seek a safe haven in them and in so doing we shun the unfolding, everchanging experience of living that is available to us right now, in every moment. 

Okay, I'm rambling here... just some thoughts on impermanence and change which came to mind today as I read this thread.

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Lolly, I love your rambling. You can ramble here all you want as far as I am concerned.

[AletheiaRivers]

Yeah Lolly. Come back please. We miss you.

[jerryb]

AletheiaRivers, on Apr 20 2005, 11:30 AM, said:

This is a quote from a blog I found when doing a net search on "Christian Taoist". The writer is a vicar in the Church of England.

Quote

I actually think God is dynamic, alive, and apart from being above time (which is a bit hard for me to get my head round) must also therefore be capable of change in some sense. I need to think that he is interested in what I might do because it is possible for him to be surprised and delighted by it, as he sees how this unique work of art he has created in me, turns out. This seems to me to be far more pastorally useful, and consoling, than the idea that somewhere out there / up there, is a Being who is above and outside of change.

It seems to me the Taoists have got it worked out better, with their doctrine that the only permanent thing is change, and that there's a constant dance of yin and yang which moves the universe, and as soon as things reach one extreme, they already include the seed of the change to move back to the other.

As a 'Christian Taoist', I want to assert that the Triune God is that dance of change. We have nothing to fear from change, or resist in it (or seek restlessly in it, either), because the dance and the stillness is God. We are caught up in it whether we choose or not. So let go! Move with the dance! Let the rhythm and the music take you and move you, in their enchanting, enchanted flow.

Any thoughts?

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Hi Aletheia,


I enjoyed your post...especially the part where you said"the dance and the stillness is God". Some wise person said,"Stillness is the ONLY voice of our God".
I am truly coming to believe that, because I find myself more and more retreating
into that silence as my form of prayer. As I pray,I notice that I use much fewer words....and just listen.

Blessings,


Jerryb

[AletheiaRivers]

I wish I could take credit for that beautiful line, but alas it was actually a quote from a blog I found a while ago.

Is is how I see God though: A dance of opposites that rely on each other for their existence, which are not two however, but one. Duality in unity that make up a trinity. I think we are called to join that dance, both now and after death.

I listen to the silence too. I listen for the dance, the heartbeat of God, both without and within myself as well.

Sheesh, listen to me. I'm waxing poetic.

This post has been edited by AletheiaRivers: 13 November 2005 - 02:39 PM

[flowperson]

AR

Keep up the waxing. It makes alot of sense to me!

flow....

[AletheiaRivers]

Flow,

Thanks! I just re-read that post and thought "Sheesh, what WAS I thinking?" I've been reading the website "The Wild Things of God" for the past few days and it has me feeling all mystical. It's an awesome website. Highly recommended. I googled "Theosis" a while back and it led me there.

[flowperson]

AR

One of the things I know enough about to be a little dangerous is the basic nature of complex systems and how they operate in the natural world.

It's just that your description of the dance of opposites that makes-up the whole perfectly describes the phenomenon, as does the yin/yang illustration that you are so famous for out here in the wild, wild west.

They are all constantly changing in dynamically rhythmic patterns; but, they writhe in concert with musical patterns. Protein structures, DNA, ocean currents, wind and weather patterns, plant colonies, herds of animals, flocks of birds flying in the air,; you name it, they do it.

And what is needed for dancing? Music of course!!

By the way there are some passages in the Gnostic writings that have Jesus dancing in a circle with his disciples. Kind of like Havah Na Nageilah (sp) I suppose? Or maybe the circle of life, hmmmm.

Oh, and I am of the opinion that the best things of G-d are wild. That's what mother nature is all about. Our native brothers and sisters believed that it took the marriage of the sky god of time and the wild goddess of earth to make the earth whole and complete in the original time of creation.

There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with feeling and being mystical from time to time.

Rock on dudette!

flow....

This post has been edited by flowperson: 13 November 2005 - 08:53 PM

[jerryb]

AletheiaRivers, on Nov 13 2005, 02:38 PM, said:

I wish I could take credit for that beautiful line, but alas it was actually a quote from a blog I found a while ago.

Is is how I see God though: A dance of opposites that rely on each other for their existence, which are not two however, but one. Duality in unity that make up a trinity. I think we are called to join that dance, both now and after death.

I listen to the silence too. I listen for the dance, the heartbeat of God, both without and within myself as well.

Sheesh, listen to me. I'm waxing poetic. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Aletheia,

You ARE poetic....don't fight it.
I like what you said about God's heartbeat...maybe that's what we are all missing in our hectic world today. The scripture "Be still and KNOW that I am God" comes to mind. I have come to understand that there is a great difference in BELIEVING
and KNOWING....and I need the feedback of all of you on this board to help me understand that difference.


GODSPEED MY FRIENDS,

Jerryb

[North]

BrotherRog, on Oct 11 2005, 12:33 PM, said:

Some forms of Christianity are highly Hellenized, i.e. assimilated Aristotles notions of an "unmoved mover" (omnipotence, omniscience, etc..)

However, there are more open-minded schools of thought within Christianity, e.g.;

Denver Journal - 5:0301 - Most Moved Mover. A Theology of God's ...Denver Journal - 5:0301 - Most Moved Mover. A Theology of God's Openness.
www.denverseminary.edu/dj/articles2002/0300/0301.php -

Amazon.com: Most Moved Mover: A Theology of God's Openness (The ...Amazon.com: Most Moved Mover: A Theology of God's Openness (The Didsbury Lectures): Books by Clark H. Pinnock.
www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ tg/detail/-/0801022908?v=glance 
amazon.com review

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Dr. Greg Boyd (also an proponent) makes that point about the hellenization of Christianity and explores these issues in several of his books. Really enjoyed "Is God to Blame". Makes some remarkable points from scripture and experience. His God is the one we really experience. Some evangelicals (in a sense of the term) were highly offeneded but as Boyd points out, even the strongest proponent of the sovereignty of God still locks their door at night. This is a contradiction for someone who beleives that nothing can happen outside of God's will. I am moving more in the direction of OT, although I was at first disturbed by it.

North

[AletheiaRivers]

Quote

One of the things I know enough about to be a little dangerous is the basic nature of complex systems and how they operate in the natural world.

It's just that your description of the dance of opposites that makes-up the whole perfectly describes the phenomenon, as does the yin/yang illustration that you are so famous for out here in the wild, wild west.

It's funny that I spent so much of my adult religious life arguing against the Trinity as being unscriptural, only to become a "Trinitarian" because of science, philosophy, nature. Boy would the elders in my former congregation love to get there hands on me now!

Quote

There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with feeling and being mystical from time to time.

I used to feel mystical all the time and over the past few months I lost it. The past few days have brought it back (thanks Fred for bringing up Kenosis).

Quote

Kind of like Havah Na Nageilah

Oh crap, now I have the naked guy from Monty Python's "Life of Brian" dancing around in my brain! Not exactly the Circle of Life dance you had in mind, eh?

[AletheiaRivers]

Quote

Aletheia,

You ARE poetic....don't fight it.
I like what you said about God's heartbeat...maybe that's what we are all missing in our hectic world today. The scripture "Be still and KNOW that I am God" comes to mind. I have come to understand that there is a great difference in BELIEVING
and KNOWING....and I need the feedback of all of you on this board to help me understand that difference.


GODSPEED MY FRIENDS,

Jerryb

Jerry, run (don't walk) to your nearest Blockbuster Video and rent the movie "Uncorked" with Minnie Driver and Rufus Sewel. The movie is filled with hidden spiritual insights. About 1/3 of the way into the film there is a scene that has something to do with what you said above. I hesistate to say more because I don't want to ruin in for you. The movie isn't an earthshaking spiritual experience, but that one particular scene reached in and grabbed my heart so tightly I couldn't breath.

I think "Be still and know that I am God" is my all time favorite scripture. Wow, we do seem to be on the same wavelength.

[FredP]

AletheiaRivers, on Nov 14 2005, 12:16 AM, said:

It's funny that I spent so much of my adult religious life arguing against the Trinity as being unscriptural, only to become a "Trinitarian" because of science, philosophy, nature. Boy would the elders in my former congregation love to get there hands on me now!

It is funny, isn't it! Kinda goes to show you that most "trinitarians" don't understand Trinitarianism to begin with.

AletheiaRivers, on Nov 14 2005, 12:16 AM, said:

I used to feel mystical all the time and over the past few months I lost it. The past few days have brought it back (thanks Fred for bringing up Kenosis).

I do what I can.

[AletheiaRivers]

Quote

It is funny, isn't it! Kinda goes to show you that most "trinitarians" don't understand Trinitarianism to begin with.

And that those that argue against the Trinity don't really know what they are arguing against. Neither side has it right.

[FredP]

AletheiaRivers, on Nov 14 2005, 03:14 PM, said:

Neither side has it right.   

You've discovered my mantra!

[AletheiaRivers]

I can just see Fred, sitting lotus position, chanting and shaking his head in negation and bemusement: "Neither side has it right. Neither side has it right. Neither side has it right.'

[jerryb]

AletheiaRivers, on Nov 14 2005, 12:22 AM, said:

Quote

Aletheia,

You ARE poetic....don't fight it.
I like what you said about God's heartbeat...maybe that's what we are all missing in our hectic world today. The scripture "Be still and KNOW that I am God" comes to mind. I have come to understand that there is a great difference in BELIEVING
and KNOWING....and I need the feedback of all of you on this board to help me understand that difference.


GODSPEED MY FRIENDS,

Jerryb

Jerry, run (don't walk) to your nearest Blockbuster Video and rent the movie "Uncorked" with Minnie Driver and Rufus Sewel. The movie is filled with hidden spiritual insights. About 1/3 of the way into the film there is a scene that has something to do with what you said above. I hesistate to say more because I don't want to ruin in for you. The movie isn't an earthshaking spiritual experience, but that one particular scene reached in and grabbed my heart so tightly I couldn't breath.

I think "Be still and know that I am God" is my all time favorite scripture. Wow, we do seem to be on the same wavelength.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi Aletheia,


On my way to the bookstore! Can't seem to get enough of this good spiritual stuff!

As far as that favorite scripture of yours...it's in my top ten too. And I truly believe,that if we ever really grasp what that verse implies...it will revolutionize our spritual paths.


Blessings my friend,

Jerry

[jerryb]

AletheiaRivers, on Oct 11 2005, 10:27 AM, said:

Thanks for the links Rog. I especially liked what the author of the blog had to say:

Quote

One of the tenants of philosophical Taoism is balance: To be balanced one should not dwell on depression, discouragement, or bad things to the point where they rob us of the ability to act. Moreover, the counter is equally as important. That is, when we encounter something that appears to be an advantage one should not get carried away with ecstatic excitement--especially to the point where we become blind to the bad which may be hiding in the advantageous.

According to the Tao Te Ching: Misfortune is what fortune depends upon. Fortune is where misfortune hides beneath. Naturally, the story of Sai Ong's son illustrates this notion.

Perhaps a better example for the Western mind is the notion of moderation. Without moderation, life can be series of extremes--a series of highs and lows. One moment you are high on success; the next you crash and burn. According to Taoism, nothing can survive long by going to extremes. Once you realize this, instead of non-stop highs and lows that are out of control, life becomes a series of gentle rolling hills. The extreme ups and downs become the exceptions, not the rule.

Comparitive religion is somewhat of a hoby of mine and I give credit to that interest in bringing me back to Christianity, because in my studies, I found Christianity to hold the most "truth", both philosophically and theologically.

I appreciate much of Taoism and Zen and think that they have alot to offer philosophically. The Zen concept of life being a journey that we shouldn't miss because we are so focused on a destination, is something I try to remind myself of regularly. Stop and smell the roses, in other words. Much of Christianity is "gotta get to heaven ... gotta survive God's war ... gotta avoid hell ... " Those are interpretations of the Bible that miss the point, imo.

I hold to a modified Christus Victor view of the cross. (I don't think Jesus was a legalistic, judicial style, ransom, propitiatory sacrifice for my sins.) I do think Jesus' death was a snub at the authorities (both material and immaterial) and a defiant snub at death. I think the resurrection has as much to teach us about the meaning of Jesus as his death did, and I think his life example, of course, is just as important as the other two.

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Aletheia....once again, our spiritual backgrounds are similar. My study in comparitive religion is also helping to bring me back to christianity. But it is a much different christianity from the one that was "drilled" into my head as a young man.
I am getting to know a kinder,gentler Jesus. Thanks to people like Phil Yancey who helped me to see that God is actually "hungry" for a relationship with us,and as he says in the cover of his book "Where is God when it hurts"? "God takes us
beyond the things that make for disillusionment,to a deeper faith,and a thirst not just for what God GIVES.but for who He IS".


MORE blessings,

Jerry

[AletheiaRivers]

Quote

"God takes us beyond the things that make for disillusionment,to a deeper faith,and a thirst not just for what God GIVES.but for who He IS".

[flowperson]

[soma]

God is definitely smiling on us today in your post or is that a wink? Maybe just one hand clapping?