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Why Does The Bible Depict So Many Of God's Killings?


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I understand that it is jargon, but I was curious about the scholarship that determined the difference between when a war was a holy war and when it was not, as described in the bible.

 

You said that If booty is allowed, it is not Holy War in the biblical sense. So I was asking what scholarship that assumption came from because the bible seems to offer very little by way of explanation about the differences in war and they seemed to quite often seize booty (both of the material and of the feminine kind) when it suited them but wrote that such was God's instruction.

Holy War describes war declared by God through a prophet and not by a tribal leader or priest. Today we have wars, police actions, green revolutions, coups, civil wars, etc. This the same logic.

 

I'll try to look into it a little deeper over the weekend. Maybe you could be more like Tariki and do some research on your own to bring to the discussion too.

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Hi Paul, I'll leave that with Burl. But having a bit of time to myself I did a bit of Googling. One interesting site was related to the Hebrew word "herem", which can refer to either war or property. "Herem means that in the hour of victory all that would normally be regarded as booty, including the inhabitants of the land, was to be devoted to God". Seeking the roots of the word, it seems to relate to the utter destruction of all that separates us from God. Which, at least to me, can lead to other things than "Holy War".......perhaps more a journey inwards rather than looking over the next hill to find your next target?

 

One scholar spoke of Holy War as being concerned purely with the elimination of idolatry, seeming to imply that the wars of other nations back in those days were concerned more with pure conquest and booty. Which to me asks the question, is "idolatry" another thing that is in the eye of the beholder? One of the very oldest "Holy" book, the Vedas, has the line "Thou are formless: your only form is our knowledge of You". which makes me reflect upon the words of that old Hymn, sung with such gusto not too many years ago, about "the heathen in his blindness bowing down to wood and stone". It makes one wonder.

 

Well, whatever.

 

Presently lacking any understanding of how biblical scholarship has determined the difference between holy wars and non-holy wars (when both are attributed in the bible as instruction from God), it seems to me that the Israelites, like most other peoples in that region in those days, were just as much into their warfare and raping and pillaging as anybody else. In the Israelites case they attributed their conquests and defeats to their relationship with their God, as I imagine the other tribes of people did as well tot heir respective God/s. It seems it took the heathen Romans to initiate peace on earth.

 

I am sure the Israelites were convinced they had good reason to destroy other peoples and perhaps regarded all of their wars as holy. After all, God was telling them to commit genocide, infanticide, and implement a scorched earth policy.

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Holy War describes war declared by God through a prophet and not by a tribal leader or priest. Today we have wars, police actions, green revolutions, coups, civil wars, etc. This the same logic.

 

I'll try to look into it a little deeper over the weekend. Maybe you could be more like Tariki and do some research on your own to bring to the discussion too.

 

Happy to research Burl, I guess I was just hoping for a quick answer to your assertion that when the Israelites took spoils, then it wasn't a holy war. I have looked and I simply don't see where that is supported biblically. I just thought you might be able to explain where your support came from for determining that if booty is allowed, it is not Holy War in the biblical sense. It's the biblical sense bit that I don't see.

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Happy to research Burl, I guess I was just hoping for a quick answer to your assertion that when the Israelites took spoils, then it wasn't a holy war. I have looked and I simply don't see where that is supported biblically. I just thought you might be able to explain where your support came from for determining that if booty is allowed, it is not Holy War in the biblical sense. It's the biblical sense bit that I don't see.

Holy War. The Old Testament speaks of the "wars of Yahweh" ( Num 21:14 ; 1 Sam 18:17 ; 25:28 ), but does not use the term "holy war." This was introduced into the literature by the German scholar Friedrich Schwally in 1901. It refers to a type of warfare totally devoted to the plans and purposes of the Lord. God not only endorses and directs it but is an active participant.

http://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionaries/bakers-evangelical-dictionary/war-holy-war.html
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I must be missing something. You reference Numbers 21 concerning holy war but in that chapter when they defeat the Amorites, the Israelites then occupied their cities and took their daughters as captives. Is that not taking spoils? That seems to contradict what you were saying about holy wars not taking spoils? I am confused.

Edited by PaulS
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I found the first few responses most interesting. The article itself certainly has a bias and an apologetics tone, which the comments are quick to identify and address more accurately, in my opinion.

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I must be missing something. You reference Numbers 21 concerning holy war but in that chapter when they defeat the Amorites, the Israelites then occupied their cities and took their daughters as captives. Is that not taking spoils? That seems to contradict what you were saying about holy wars not taking spoils? I am confused.

Slaves are spoils, and that was not allowed. They could take captives as wives, but the women must agree and be given time to mourn their dead.

 

Generally the rule in holy war was complete destruction.

 

PS: I am hitting my max posts/day quota again so I may have to take a day off.

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It does seem to me that the whole subject of "Holy War", at least in any attempt to exonerate any particular group or "belief system", is linked with Apologetics (of the Christian Faith) In Islam we have the concept of Jihad, often translated/understood as "Holy War", yet the Islamic Apologists speak of the word meaning "struggle/struggling/striving", the struggle to create a just society, to make ourselves "just". Here are some fine words from the Muslim Ziauddin Sardar, written soon after 9/11................

"Creating the Kingdom of God on earth, as it is in heaven, is the basic message of Islam. This is the true meaning of Jihad................Acts of terror are not Jihad. They violate the explicit word of God, Prophet Muhammad and the reasoned concensus of all believers. The greatest jihad is the war on injustice in one's own soul, the injustice that can conceive of terror tactics and lose all restraints and respect for the sanctity of a human life. Jihad is the reasoned struggle of each individual to work within the bounds of moral action, to extend the protection of justice equitably to every human being, irrespective of colour, creed or place of origin. Jihad is the obligation to make peace a lived reality for all human beings.................The faith I hold, the faith of Muslims, the justice we seek, is an obligation to promote and make real in each life freedom from tyranny, neglect, need, dearth and suffering. The justice we yearn for is the life blood of a humane society with dignity and freedom for all. It cannot be found by blasting innocents apart in an inferno of twisted metal and concrete. When the innocent are murdered, we all go into the dark with them. When the innocent suffer, their suffering is our own."

(As published in the "Observer", an English newspaper)
As I understand it, ISIS are not after "booty" as such. Is their war therefore "holy"?

What is THEIR "cause"?

 

At least my own investigations have led me to Alicia Keys, and her song Holy War. I never knew of this until today. A good song and good lyrics.

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I'm pretty sure Joshua was the only person to have engaged in holy war in the academic biblical sense of the term. Yahweh did approve and assist in many battles, but they were not holy war.

 

I think it is well evidenced that ISIS are mercenaries who are not adverse to murdering muslims. This alone puts them well outside of theological Islam.

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So it would seem that apart from Joshua taking Jericho, all of the other wars the Israelites of the day initiated, supposedly as instructed by God, were not Holy Wars, but God did approve of them taking sex slaves, booty and committing mass atrocities and genocide. Actually, the whole trip down the road about Holy War seems a bit of a furphy then really if it only pertains to one particular battle of the many referred to in the bible.

 

So we are still left with mass atrocities and violence, supposedly ordered by and/or approved by God, where taking booty was approved. That I can understand from an ancient Israelite's point of view and culture, but I cannot possibly fathom how modern minds would even consider these actions fair and reasonable. Theirs was a primitive, war-mongering mindset which thankfully began to alleviate when Rome dominated (but naturally there were negatives associated with that too).

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So it would seem that apart from Joshua taking Jericho, all of the other wars the Israelites of the day initiated, supposedly as instructed by God, were not Holy Wars, but God did approve of them taking sex slaves, booty and committing mass atrocities and genocide. Actually, the whole trip down the road about Holy War seems a bit of a furphy then really if it only pertains to one particular battle of the many referred to in the bible.

 

So we are still left with mass atrocities and violence, supposedly ordered by and/or approved by God, where taking booty was approved. That I can understand from an ancient Israelite's point of view and culture, but I cannot possibly fathom how modern minds would even consider these actions fair and reasonable. Theirs was a primitive, war-mongering mindset which thankfully began to alleviate when Rome dominated (but naturally there were negatives associated with that too).

Correct. The point is that warfare such as this is NOT fair and reasonable anymore, and has not been for millenia. It is a direct refutation of the "God is on our side" justification.
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I think it is well evidenced that ISIS are mercenaries who are not adverse to murdering muslims. This alone puts them well outside of theological Islam.

 

Are you suggesting these mercenaries are not muslims (ie think of themselves as muslims)? And how is muslims paying mercenaries to murder other muslims any different?

 

Unless we are going down some no true Scotsman argument this makes no sense.

 

If not, I would like to see the evidence.

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Are you suggesting these mercenaries are not muslims (ie think of themselves as muslims)? And how is muslims paying mercenaries to murder other muslims any different?

 

Unless we are going down some no true Scotsman argument this makes no sense.

 

If not, I would like to see the evidence.

No. I clearly referenced theological Islam, which is not the same thing as self-identifying as muslim.
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So I was sort of right ... but a variation of the no true Scotsman fallacy.

You were sort of wrong. You clearly stated self-identification and not theological correctness.

 

Begging the True Scotsman fallacy is not even wrong. It does not apply to hypocrisy.

Edited by Burl
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You were sort of wrong. You clearly stated self-identification and not theological correctness.

 

 

My apologies Burl, I did not recognize that you were in possession of the one and only true theological interpretation.

Have a nice evening.

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