Burl Posted January 6, 2017 Author Share Posted January 6, 2017 (edited) Spiritual pilgrimage ... Peering down a microscope looking at a four-cell pre-zygote that could have been our child. Wasn't planning on going there, but went anyway. You did that? Wow. How did you locate something that tiny? It points out that a pilgrimage involves expending effort to approach a sacred space and achieve a spiritual reward. The icon is the hajj, or medieval Christian pilgrimages or Tibetan Buddhists with wood blocks strapped to their hands dragging themselves to the temple on their knees but the central theme is a burning spiritual drive state. Rom's pilgrimage to his blastomere is unique, but I think it fits and indicates this is a human behavior pattern spread across multiple belief systems. Edited January 6, 2017 by Burl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soma Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 I feel comprehending the neuroscience of religious and spiritual experience can help us figure out and appreciate the motivation of religious behavior and may help with our other addictions. In India pilgrimages are an important part of religious practice because people get out of a small village life and open up their mind to the world. Researchers at the University of Utah say that during spiritual and religious experiences the brain reward circuits are activated in the same way as with love, sex, gambling and drugs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soma Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 Las Vegas is a church without walls if you enjoy the Red Rock Canyon and desert, but many get sidetracked and reward the pleasure circuits of their brain in the Casinos which are crafty illusions to draw people in and keep them there with the goal of removing them from their possessions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burl Posted January 7, 2017 Author Share Posted January 7, 2017 Las Vegas is a church without walls if you enjoy the Red Rock Canyon and desert, but many get sidetracked and reward the pleasure circuits of their brain in the Casinos which are crafty illusions to draw people in and keep them there with the goal of removing them from their possessions. The word is entrainment. Using the environment and habits (NLP anyone?) for mind control. Advertising, news, social media, TV, movies, casinos - all is entrainment today. Reading Pilgrim's Progress I'm not convinced pilgrimage is entrainment. The essence of entrainment is repetition and control, and I don't really see that in pilgrimage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soma Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 I don't think entertainment is pilgrimage. I was drawing a contrast from the natural environment where many people go to commune with nature, which we call camping, but is a kind of pilgrimage and the man made illusions of Paris, Venice, Roman era which are some of the themes, or illusions to draw people into the casino. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burl Posted January 7, 2017 Author Share Posted January 7, 2017 I don't think entertainment is pilgrimage. I was drawing a contrast from the natural environment where many people go to commune with nature, which we call camping, but is a kind of pilgrimage and the man made illusions of Paris, Venice, Roman era which are some of the themes, or illusions to draw people into the casino. Soma: Entrainment, not entertainment. People deliberately manipulating your environment so that they can direct your behavior. Pilgrimage seems to involve a spiritual drive state which is satisfied permanently when one engages the sacred space. There is an emotional release involved. Muslims do not repeat the hajj and I have no burning desire to go back to the Yúcatan or Wounded Knee. I have two family members who were WWII vets and going to the monument was obviously a pilgrimage. It's almost universal in religion, but there are secular pilgrimages as well. I thought you might have some observations from your recent travels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burl Posted January 7, 2017 Author Share Posted January 7, 2017 Question for everyone: Where would you go if you were terminally ill and given a free trip to any place on earth which you had never experienced? I can't decide between Osaka and Cairo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romansh Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 (edited) I don't know, but I am not sure it would be much different if I was healthy. Visit family? Edited January 7, 2017 by romansh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soma Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 I would say my trip was a pilgrimage because Korea is like a new country and China too. My life is still unfolding so when the end is near I am sure the place will present itself, it might be with family since my two sons our doctors in the medical field, but I think I would just like to go somewhere to relax and enjoy the experience. When I was young my brother and I would got to Palm Springs during the summer and spend the time on my aunts orchard. We climbed the mountains behind it and found an old cave on a cliff with a narrow path leading to it. People told us that is where the Indians would go to prepare their last dance. I like this attitude to embrace what unfolds even death. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romansh Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 (edited) I can't decide between Osaka and Cairo. I can generally recommend Japan ... I thought a very civilized country and people. There seemed to be an inner peace. War for them must be such an aberration. The bus drive from the airport into downtown Osaka at night, I thought, was magical, Edited January 7, 2017 by romansh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soma Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 The people there are so polite and law abiding. You could leave suitcase on a street, walk around for two hours and it would be there when you returned. When hitchhiking 45 years ago a person picks you up and finds your next ride before departing. Amazing country, but very expensive, they protect their workers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burl Posted January 8, 2017 Author Share Posted January 8, 2017 I don't know, but I am not sure it would be much different if I was healthy. Visit family? My thinking in the terminal illness bit was you could do it only once and never again. For my Dad, it was visiting his childhood home and his mother's grave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romansh Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 Rom's pilgrimage to his blastomere is unique, but I think it fits and indicates this is a human behavior pattern spread across multiple belief systems . No not really ... another time I was eel fishing at night on a lake at night with my Dad ... saw the milky way for the first time (I was seventeen, and I lived in a big city in the UK). I went there and then to a "sacred space" or at least as close as I will ever get. I have seen the milky way again in Chile; I was at moderate altitude and the night sky was clear. Went there again. My colleague got out of a car to take a phone call and I got out to stretch my legs ... immediately was on my pilgrimage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soma Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 rom I know the feeling, in Hawaii I went up the volcano to see the eruption and it was creation happening in the present. My senses were engaged; sulfur smell, feel the the heat, sound captivating, sight mesmerizing like a stream or fire, and taste probably because my mouth was open with awe. The universe say it all, we just need to listen as our life is a pilgrimage speaking every second of we have eyes to see and ears to listen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burl Posted January 8, 2017 Author Share Posted January 8, 2017 . No not really ... another time I was eel fishing at night on a lake at night with my Dad ... saw the milky way for the first time (I was seventeen, and I lived in a big city in the UK). I went there and then to a "sacred space" or at least as close as I will ever get. I have seen the milky way again in Chile; I was at moderate altitude and the night sky was clear. Went there again. My colleague got out of a car to take a phone call and I got out to stretch my legs ... immediately was on my pilgrimage. Not a pilgrimage. One must bring their physical body to a specific location. The experience of beauty can have a spiritual impact, but it is not a pilgrimage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soma Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PilgrimageA pilgrimage is a journey or search of moral or spiritual significance. Typically, it is a journey to a shrine or other location of importance to a person's beliefs and faith, although sometimes it can be a metaphorical journey into someone's own beliefs. We can limit our definitions and our pilgrimage to just space and a specific shrine or location or we can venture into another dimension. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burl Posted January 8, 2017 Author Share Posted January 8, 2017 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilgrimage A pilgrimage is a journey or search of moral or spiritual significance. Typically, it is a journey to a shrine or other location of importance to a person's beliefs and faith, although sometimes it can be a metaphorical journey into someone's own beliefs. We can limit our definitions and our pilgrimage to just space and a specific shrine or location or we can venture into another dimension. In this thread I'm only interested in the sociology of physical pilgrimage and physical sacred spaces. Metaphorical journeys and spaces are interesting but need a different topic. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soma Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 In India if you go from a small village with small village thinking and carry a pumpkin with you after the pilgrimage the pumpkin will have rot, but the mind is usually enriched through the process of meeting new people with similar notions of sacred places or skeptical of sacred of these places, but either way the experience expands a person's boundaries and thinking. The changes are in the mind, we don't have to climb a thousand stairs unless we want the challenge or need to in order to get an epiphany, but we can get the same experience in the mind. The Milky Way is a physical place very large mind you and so is the universe so all a person has to do is open the mind to these places and let the pilgrimage start first in the senses, then the brain, which triggers the mind and expands to consciousness. Hero's Journey. According to folklorists and other narrative scholars, the hero's journey forms the basic template for all great stories. Described at length in Joseph Campbell's The Hero with a Thousand Faces, the hero's journey serves as the tale every culture tells. Definition of Hero's Journey | Chegg.comwww.chegg.com/homework-help/definitions/heros-journey-41 We can skip a stage and go straight to the mind to make it easier, but we will still end up in the same place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burl Posted January 8, 2017 Author Share Posted January 8, 2017 The Hero's Journey trope has similarities but it is not the same. The pilgrimage to a sacred site satiates a spiritual drive state. If I remember correctly, the Hero is forced or tricked into conflict, is transformed and then elevated. That is a different narrative. What is this drive? Look at the Buddhist pilgrims again. If all is oneness, I don't think this is what they are seeking. Mindfulness, perhaps. In the pilgrimages of a man seeking out his mother's grave, or a war veteran visiting a memorial the idea of assuaging a broken oneness makes sense. I don't really see the Hero's Journey there either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soma Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 The pilgrimage is common to the hero on a journey, putting one foot in front of the other, alone, not a tourist because there is time for thought and contemplation. The pilgrimage is a calling for change, for adventure for something new. It is a pattern of experiences, learning and seeking that is found in the folktales, literature and mythology in many cultures. The person on a pilgrimage and the hero on a journey are for the same reasons to seek answers to life’s questions, which is unlikely to be found in one’s daily life. The pilgrimage and the physical journey are in the physical realm, but the answers come inside the person. Both go on a journey and if successful return as a different people than the ones that started. Joseph Cambell uses “The Hero's Journey” as a template to demonstrate the change in a person on a pilgrimage, a journey expressed in folktales, literature and mythology. On a pilgrimage it is not one encounter that the change happens because it is a series of experiences without people one knows including family. A mundane pilgrimage might not be similar to the Hero’s Journey because one can back away with friends or family, but the sincere pilgrim is the subject of the Hero’s Journey. It is like the old adage, going to church doesn't make you a Christian, going to Holy places don't make you Holy, the same way going to a garage doesn't make you a car. It is the journey that makes the pilgrimage. Many people go on pilgrimages to take pictures, take selfies and brag, but it doesn't make them holy. I feel sorry for them because they miss the journey of change and travel to just tell a story. The Buddhist are seeking the same answers to the same questions we do and yes there is oneness, but not everyone is aware of it or experience it; therefore, people are tricked into going on a pilgrimage and on their journey are transformed and elevated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burl Posted January 9, 2017 Author Share Posted January 9, 2017 (edited) Soma, I'm trying to unpack the terms pilgrimage and sacred space. You are not unpacking. You are stuffing them both into a bigger suitcase. I think specifying these as drive related has value. Unlike learning or conditioning, motivations or drive states originate in the individual. Oneness and mindfulness become more relatable when viewed as motivations. The Tibetan pilgrims are not engaged in superstition, but are engaged in mindfulness as they are acutely aware of every aspect of their sensorium as they drag their prostrate bodies over the cobblestones. The pilgrimage of the son to the mother's grave has aspects of the restoration of oneness, but also alienation and the need to place one's own narrative in a historical context. I keep thinking security and contentment relate as the satisfaction of drives too. Edited January 9, 2017 by Burl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soma Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 Pilgrimage - Wikipediahttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PilgrimageA pilgrimage is a journey or search of moral or spiritual significance. Typically, it is a journey to a shrine or other location of importance to a person's beliefs and faith, although sometimes it can be a metaphorical journey into someone's own beliefs. Usually a pilgrimage is a journey undertaken for a religious or spiritual motive. It seems you want to use it as a journey to a meaningful even such as the Vietnam War or a grave with personal connections. In that case couples go on pilgrimage to the place they first met. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burl Posted January 9, 2017 Author Share Posted January 9, 2017 Pilgrimage - Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilgrimage . . . Usually a pilgrimage is a journey undertaken for a religious or spiritual motive. . . . Exactly. What are the possible motives? When you can define the spiritual or religious motivation as a drive and not a learned or conditioned behavior you are establishing the pilgrimage as physical evidence supporting the existence of a nonmaterial reality. The difficulty of the pilgrimage goes a long way towards establishing that the behavior is not learned or conditioned and that it comes genuinely from the spirit, as physically it is an argument against interests. It's not quite an argument yet, but we close to philosophically establishing evidence of mindfulness and oneness as spiritual realities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soma Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 I believe from my experience that there is spiritual oneness, in one pure consciousness, as Christians we call it God the Father but I wouldn't say it is proof except for me. I think everyone has to find their way and direction to where and what they want in this life. I respect and am in awe with people and the choices they make because in my mind they are individuals expressing themselves as waves from the one source we all are connected to. I think Quantum physics and the Unified Quantum Soup is an attempt to prove universal unity in one energy source and Steve Hawkins is working on a formula to express it, but many people will argue against spiritual matters and I respect them. The truth is we can't really prove it or dis approve it. Side note in 1978 I was in Iran and when the Shaw left, the muslims would walk in the streets and whip themselves with sharp metal spikes because they were happy. I don't understand that or try to, but I do like, respect and honor the Sufis which Rumi is a part of on the mystical side of Islam. I understand Islam, but the fanatics are being manipulated for political gain for a few. In a similar way that Trump manipulated the Evangelical vote. I don't feel we have to convert anyone to Christianity, but we can help our Christian brothers and sisters become more mature in their faith by going deeper in our own faith. The Holy Ghost does it all, we just need to witness it. Pilgrimage is not proof except it alters one's consciousness in the laboratory of the mind so people get a taste of what they sense is out there beyond the mind. The proof is in the pudding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thormas Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 Exactly. What are the possible motives? When you can define the spiritual or religious motivation as a drive and not a learned or conditioned behavior you are establishing the pilgrimage as physical evidence supporting the existence of a nonmaterial reality. The difficulty of the pilgrimage goes a long way towards establishing that the behavior is not learned or conditioned and that it comes genuinely from the spirit, as physically it is an argument against interests. It's not quite an argument yet, but we close to philosophically establishing evidence of mindfulness and oneness as spiritual realities. I can't buy that all the journeys of all pilgrims (think the Crusades) establish 'physical evidence' supporting a nonmaterial reality. First, I question the motives and second, "God" is not an entity and only an entity and its existence can be supported by physical evidence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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