[JosephM]

Jake, on 29 July 2009 - 07:38 AM, said:

I think I detect a misconception that wrestling with God is a bad thing, or that the intent of faith should be to bring a peaceful, centered, and loving feeling to the faithful. Sorry, I don't see it that way. Faith grows stronger through conflict. My wrestling with God is growth. It keeps my thoughts on God new and fresh, and it stops any attempts to objectify God. Life is in constant flux, constant change. Every second brings a new opportunity for reflection on God. Since the nature of God is infinite, and my capacity for thought is finite, I will forever be viewing the perimeter of something I can never fully comprehend. It is a parallax. Every step in my life puts me in a position to view God from a new perspective, creates new questions about the nature of God, and generates new awareness. There are no definitives , no right or wrong answers, and never will be any packaged understanding of God.
I would love to continue, but i am going to be late for work if I don't put the keyboard down.

*Once again, my opinions, not meant to offend but to enlighten.

Hi Jake,

It is quite alright to have that view. Some here including me have shared that view for some time and personally I had come to the same conclusion that you have written "Since the nature of God is infinite, and my capacity for thought is finite, I will forever be viewing the perimeter of something I can never fully comprehend." And then realizing exactly what you have said, I found it fruitless to wrestle anymore to comprehend the incomprehendable because the mind cannot see past itself. At that moment of surrender a profound peace and presence emerges that removes all conflicts and questions of conflicts. Thinking stops and one in a glimpse experiences/realizes ones true nature and that all that wrestling was nothing more than vanity and a creation of the mind and no longer necessary. This is only my experience Jake and if you would like to expand on this perhaps we could start a thread under the debate section concerning this possible misconception you detect. Please feel free to do so if you wish. I'm sure others would like to express their view and we could all get in more detail concerning this without burdening the purpose of this particular thread and other non-progressives may even get involved to present alternative perspectives.

Love in Christ,
Joseph

[Kyler Rush]

Hey guys,

Sorry I was away for so long but I was kinda busy.
I have another inspiration for you to chew on.

About a week ago I was at the square feeding pigeons, and I thought to myself, "Wouldn't it be cool to feed them out of my hand?" So I held back some of the nuts that I was scattering, and lowered my hand. At first the pigeons were a bit skeptical about my intentions, yet they wanted the nuts in my hand. After a few moments one brave pigeon ventured forth and plucked a peanut from my hand. Seeing that nothing had happened to his (or her) comrade, another pigeon plucked a peanut from my hand and came back for more. Soon the pigeons were pushing each other out of the way to get at the nuts.
Just like the pigeons at the square, we humans see an opportunity to take a blessing that is offered by Life, yet are skeptical about the one offering it or the thing being offered or sometimes both. Also, like the pigeons, we wait for someone else to take what's offered just to be sure it's safe for us. Sometimes it is good to wait, sometimes it is not. If we wait too long then we won't get to pick the best stuff. And if we rush into it to try and get it before everyone else has had a chance, we may find ourselves in a sticky situation. It's tough deciding when to wait and when to jump. All I know is, "When the free cookies are out, take one and leave some for everyone."

Kyler.

[tariki]

I've been reflecting upon this "peace v conflict" and relating it to my own experience and understanding. For me it has boiled down to how I relate to Reality-as-is. For me I certainly have "conflicts", moments of deep self-judgement.......certainly I don't hover about upon a cushion of enlightenment! Yet for me the "conflicts" are dissolved rather that resolved by any particular decision or activity of myself. Reality is and always has been infinite compassion/grace and this is all that I know or feel I need to know. Genuine activity (even "decisions") issues from this assurance/faith/trust, or as we say in the Pure Land, "no working is true working".

From a Christian perspective, there are the words of Desmond Tutu. Speaking of the verse from the NT...."You were chosen before the foundation of the world"........he said....this means that nothing you can do can make God love you more, nothing you can do can make God love you less...

And there is a little verse by Thomas Merton that is apt....

In one sense we are always travelling,
Travelling as if we did not know where we are going.
In another sense we have already arrived.
We cannot arrive at the perfect possession of God in this life:
That is why we are travelling and in darkness.
But we already possess God by grace.
Therefore, in that sense, we have arrived and
Are dwelling in the light.
But oh! How far have I to go to find You
In Whom I have already arrived!

Hopefully my words can be received in the spirit with which I seek to offer them. And the following to, which suggest themselves because of one or two things in this thread, spoken by the Christian mystic Meister Eckhart......they can truly enjoy the feast who would just as willingly fast Personally, more often than not, I still enjoy the "feast" far more, yet the truth of Eckharts words cry out to me.

Peace to you all
Derek