[rivanna]

JayTee made a good point about the different contexts of the nature miracles and the dialogue with Satan. I still think Jesus was defining the way he would carry out his ministry, in the desert scene. He was choosing the role of the suffering servant, or the son of man, rather than the conquering hero messiah that was expected.

Tsisqua’s point about Jesus reaching out to the marginalized is so true. We all feel marginalized in one way or another.

Spiritseeker seemed to be asking whether Jesus had supernatural powers or not. Maybe the implied question is, can people relate/pray to Jesus if they don’t think he was resurrected? For me, that had to be real in my mind before I felt Christ was accessible; but it doesn’t seem necessary for others. Not sure if this interprets your question correctly.

You say “I am really hurting inside because I want a relationship with God and Jesus that I can be proud of.” But pride has nothing to do with it. You can have the spiritual connection and you can continue the intellectual reading-- no contradiction. It seems to me that your heartfelt longing will take you beyond any fear that you must study enough to feel justified. A small leap of faith is involved rather than achieving absolute certainty. I think it comes down to how strong your desire is. If you really need Jesus to be alive and present for you, he will be.

This post has been edited by rivanna: 19 October 2009 - 09:57 AM

[spiritseeker]

Thanks for all the replies everyone. You have definately got me thinking. I was thinking how some people on here relate to a certain picture that means something to them and it shows them what Jesus is about. I realised that I do have something like that myself.

For me it is music. One group in particular really get me feeling spiritually in touch with Jesus. They are Casting Crowns. Whenever I listen to them I just feel like Jesus is with me and that everything is ok. It is truly a wonderful feeling.

[spiritseeker]

I must also add that a few people have spoken about "the leap of faith". I really struggle with that and I know there must be something holding me back but I dont know exactly what. Even a small leap of faith is big to me because if I cant understand something then it is hard to take a leap of faith and just say I believe.

It is very hard to explain but my heart is telling me to go for it and leap but my head is saying no. Even though my head is saying no to taking a leap I do 100% believe in God and Jesus. Sorry it this is all confusing but it is really hard to try and explain how I am feeling over the computer.

[Adi Gibb]

Hi again Spiritseeker,

Your issues remind me once again how ridiculous it is for people to think that faith is easy. Faith is hard, and that leap of faith can be the hardest thing to do! Why? Because of the fear that your leap will send you spiralling into nothingness, that you will step off that cliff and hurtle into the abyss. But only by stepping off that cliff sometimes can you fly! Have a look at this link, its that section of the Indiana Jones movie I was talking about, and it SO describes the act of faith perfectly. http://www.youtube.c...h?v=C-c8_OFwZoY

All I can say Spiritseeker is I know where you are coming from, because I have been there myself. When, not if, you do make that leap, I can tell you there is something there waiting to lift you up! To paraphrase Seinfeld: It's real...and it's spectacular!

Adi

[Mike]

Spiritseeker,

I think the ability or necessity to make a leap of faith may depend both on the context and the psychological/spiritual disposition of the individual. While I do not wish to contradict Adi, I would simply provide another point of view. Not everyone is the same, and as far as leaps of faith are concerned, I'm not sure I have ever made one or that the idea is useful to me personally, in my own life. Now, perhaps I have made 'leaps of faith' in the sense of increments, steps, jumps, but I can't think of any giant plunges I have ever made, especially in the sense of never being the same afterward. My religious experience has been a gradual opening up to the divine, with some moments of relative abandon, and still a long, long way to go. Perhaps in the future I may experience some great leap, who knows?

But also perhaps it is best not to create expectations for oneself when it may not be clear what those expectations really mean. Eastern religions would tell you that you simply have to learn to be who you are and not try to be something else. If there is any leap that I think most everybody needs to take, it is simply the leap to trust in God, or the way things are, to say 'Thy will be done.' But that isn't a matter of belief really, but facing the end of oneself - facing reality. I still have problems with doing that. Perhaps people like myself - I mean, people with a similar psychological constitution - must leap many times, because I find myself running back to familiar, comforting territory. Not that I do not think the leaps of faith that Adi speaks of are valid, I think they're great, and well attested to in the history of religion and spirituality. They demonstrate an endowment of great grace.

How can I begin to talk about anybody else when I do not know my own self? My only advice is simply to continue where you are led but not to get caught up in your own expectations of what you think you ought to be, or what you think you ought to experience. Whatever your experience, God is still a mystery, and the deeper one's experience, the less is known and the less there is to convey.

Hope that made some sense.
Peace to you,
Mike

This post has been edited by Mike: 20 October 2009 - 01:26 PM

[Adi Gibb]

G'Day Mike,

I agree with everything you say. My grandparents were very religious folk but the idea of 'leaps of faith' or 'revelation' would have been anathema to them. As you say, it is an individual path we all must walk, and while I have never had a 'road to Damascus' moment, for me an initial leap of faith was necessary. I was constantly hitting intellectual brick walls when it came to my understanding of the metaphysical aspects of Jesus. I knew I wanted to believe in this aspect, but part of me just didn't feel able to surrender to the notion of transcendant things outside of human parameters. It was, to put it simply, scary! But when I took that leap, and surrendered to that notion, became open to the possibility of a limitless divine which was indeed limitless, the walls broke down, and I began my intellectual searching anew. Sounds strange but that is how it happened for me.

I could be wrong but I sense Spiritseeker is in a similar position to me back then. Regardless, I absolutely agree that one's faith can be slow or fast, intellectual, contemplative, practical, scientific, a myriad of possibilities, and leaps of faith are sometimes not required at all.

[rivanna]

Seeker,

Leap of faith was not the best choice of words-- it was a long gradual journey for me also. What I meant was, imagination is part of the process along with intellect. At least that’s how it seems to me. I agree with you about music and visual art. I enjoy seeing the different ways the gospel has been illustrated through the ages, but music has a more dynamic effect on the spirit.

[spiritseeker]

Adi Gibb, on 21 October 2009 - 09:42 AM, said:

I could be wrong but I sense Spiritseeker is in a similar position to me back then. Regardless, I absolutely agree that one's faith can be slow or fast, intellectual, contemplative, practical, scientific, a myriad of possibilities, and leaps of faith are sometimes not required at all.

You are exactly right Adi. I feel like you have a grasp on exactly where I am at but at this point on my journey I just cannot take a leap of faith as it doesnt seem right but on the other hand I am not happy spiritually and I do know that I need more in my relationship with Jesus/God.

I admire that you were able to take a leap Adi but I cant picture that for myself. I just feel like I have hit a dead end.

[Mike]

Adi Gibb, on 20 October 2009 - 07:42 PM, said:

G'Day Mike,

I agree with everything you say. My grandparents were very religious folk but the idea of 'leaps of faith' or 'revelation' would have been anathema to them. As you say, it is an individual path we all must walk, and while I have never had a 'road to Damascus' moment, for me an initial leap of faith was necessary. I was constantly hitting intellectual brick walls when it came to my understanding of the metaphysical aspects of Jesus. I knew I wanted to believe in this aspect, but part of me just didn't feel able to surrender to the notion of transcendant things outside of human parameters. It was, to put it simply, scary! But when I took that leap, and surrendered to that notion, became open to the possibility of a limitless divine which was indeed limitless, the walls broke down, and I began my intellectual searching anew. Sounds strange but that is how it happened for me.

I could be wrong but I sense Spiritseeker is in a similar position to me back then. Regardless, I absolutely agree that one's faith can be slow or fast, intellectual, contemplative, practical, scientific, a myriad of possibilities, and leaps of faith are sometimes not required at all.

Hi Adi,
As I suspected we are in no disagreement. That is why I wanted to make clear I wasn't trying to contradict or challenge your perspective, since your path and my path both are valid approaches to the Divine. Like I said, I cannot really talk for or about anyone else, so I simply wanted to provide another point of view.

spiritseeker, on 22 October 2009 - 07:52 AM, said:

I just feel like I have hit a dead end.

Hi Spiritseeker. You are in my thoughts. Like Job we all must face dark times spiritually. By darkness I mean ambiguity, unknowing, doubt. It's strange that God never really answered any of Job's objections - Job just stared into the whirlwind, felt the mystery of God in his bones, you might say. In my view only God is absolute, and whatever we are facing does not have the final say on our lives or the meaning of our lives. This dead end you feel has no intrinsic existence. Dead ends can tell us something about ourselves, implore us to look deeper, or to just let go. Things can change and will change; this can happen quickly or slowly. I'm a slow mover myself. I am learning to just sit and breathe.

Peace to you,
Mike

This post has been edited by Mike: 22 October 2009 - 01:19 PM

[DHAWLIA]

spiritseeker, on 24 September 2009 - 05:23 PM, said:

I am new to this website and I would really love to hear everyones beliefs on who Jesus is and what he means to you? Was he just a great leader of people but not the son of God? Did Jesus even exist? Is Jesus the son of God?

I have walked down many different paths to get here and I do believe in Jesus but I need to learn more to decide on what I believe about him. I know that I love him and he has special meaning to me but to what extent I dont know. I would love to hear all your beliefs and experiences on how you got to where you are.

Can anyone recommend some good books that can help me in my quest to learn more aout Jesus?

Thanks!

Hey, spiritseeker. All I can do is offer my personal view of Jesus, what He did, and what He means to me. This will be a large post, as my views need a bit of explanation to be properly conveyed. In short, Jesus is the one who has offered me life. Not just eternal, but a very real quickening in this life as well (At least in heart). I was challenged with a question the other day about God being just when it came to "punishing" an innocent man, and letting the guilty off the hook. It made me dig deep into my personal beliefs, so I wrote down my view of Christ and what He did for us, and how we are "saved" by Him. I'll try to explain exactly where I'm coming from in the following text.

"God created all things, just as He knows the beginning from the end. It is true that all things in life are part of Gods plan, but that doesn't mean that ALL things are willed by God directly. Since we as humans have a will of our own (Part of Gods plan) He has afforded us certain freedoms, such as living life on our terms. The problem with living life on our terms is that we are quite selfish, and can be very cruel to those we share our world with.

Jesus comes into play in that God sent Him to show us the way, the truth, and the life. God sent Jesus to not only show us how to live, but to also defeat sin, and to defeat death itself (Which He did). He was NOT punished by God, as He was guiltless, but Jesus did bear our sins in that we scourged Him and nailed Him to the cross. He "payed" for our sins on the cross only in that He suffered because of our sins/actions (This is my current understanding).

God didn't punish Him, but rather He allowed Jesus to be subject to our cruelty. He did so, that Jesus would be made perfect through suffering, never giving in, and never resisting Gods perfect law, which is love. Surely, being Gods son, He could have tapped in to a power that could have prevented Him from being tortured as He was, and from dying after several hours of agony on the cross. But Jesus chose the high road. He chose to submit to Gods perfect law of love. He remained obedient to God's perfect law even amidst such suffering and cruelty.

It was a display of His great love for us - "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." Who are His friends? Those who would love others as He loved us - To have a love so strong for our fellow man that we would die for them. Which is exactly what we are called to do. We are to bury the old man, and be reborn in the Spirit.

God didn't punish Jesus at all. We (Mankind) forced our cruelty on Him, whereby He suffered due to our wickedness. God may have known this would happen, but it wasn't Him who did it - We did. It was God's will inasmuch as He knew that in order for us to get back to good, Jesus (His Son) had to live that perfect life of love, and defeat sin and death, which in turn made a way for all men to be reconciled to the Father.

God knew that Christ would be beaten, bruised, and crushed by our hands, yet it pleased God that His son was willing to go through such pain, living a perfect life of love (despite), so that all man might come to know life in Him, and be reconciled back to our Creator. I call this divine justice (Just for the Unjust).

The wages of sin are death. Just as Adam sinned, and we all experience the effects of his sin (Mortality) we each also experience the effects of the sins of others."For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive".

We are in Adam in as much as we are born of Adam, "Born of flesh". We are in Christ in as much as we are reborn in Christ, “Born of Spirit”. (That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit). Just as we Inherited death through being born of Adam (Flesh), we inherit life through being reborn in Christ (Spirit).

Christ became a life giving Spirit because of the perfect life of love that He lived. We have access to His Spirit, which in turn gives us life. Without this Spirit we are in what some might call a metaphorical grave, and we will remain there until we allow ourselves to be made new creatures in Christ/His Spirit.

The atonement is in God's willingness to allow Jesus to do what He did for us, and in Jesus' willingness to suffer as He did and die by our hands, so that He might bring us to God, and in our willingness to walk in the Spirit that Christ now gives us access to.

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

1 Peter 3:18 (KJV)

What it comes down to is that the wages of sin are death, and that Christ did something no other could do, which is live a perfect life of obedience. By doing so, He was able to defeat death for us, and now - Just as all die because of Adams sins - All whom are reborn in the Spirit will live because of Christs perfect life. The Spirit gives life; the Lord (Jesus) is that Spirit. (We live in Him and through Him)."

DHAWLIA aka GK (GateKeeper)

[spiritseeker]

Thanks for the great and informative reply gate keeper! I really do have alot to sort out and I have ordered a Marcus Borg book that was recommended to me to hopefully help me figure out who I believe Jesus was/is? It is a vital question that I need to answer before I can go further on my journey.

I know some people say it is not important but we are all individual and figuring out why I believe about Jesus is one of the most important issues in my life at the moment.

[DHAWLIA]

spiritseeker, on 30 October 2009 - 07:23 AM, said:

Thanks for the great and informative reply gate keeper! I really do have alot to sort out and I have ordered a Marcus Borg book that was recommended to me to hopefully help me figure out who I believe Jesus was/is? It is a vital question that I need to answer before I can go further on my journey.

I know some people say it is not important but we are all individual and figuring out why I believe about Jesus is one of the most important issues in my life at the moment.

I myself think the most important aspect of Jesus was/is His excellence of character and what He stood for. Jesus was able to live a perfect life of love - if what we know about Him is true. Whether He was a mere teacher, or whether He was God Himself (As many believe) He allowed Himself to be beaten, and scourged, and then nailed to a cross not only to display His great love for us, but it was also a testimony to His own excellence. He certainly could have resisted every step of the way, no? Instead, He chose to submit to our cruelty and to ask the Father to forgive us even amidst His suffering.

I suggest you simply take it slow, and learn as much about the man as possible. One day you will come to adopt a view that resonates within yourself. You can always further your understanding and strengthen your own character, even without having a solid view of who Jesus was. I wish you understanding and wisdom, and above these a heart to serve your fellow man.

Blessings,

GK

This post has been edited by DHAWLIA: 30 October 2009 - 03:51 PM

[spiritseeker]

DHAWLIA, on 31 October 2009 - 06:50 AM, said:

I myself think the most important aspect of Jesus was/is His excellence of character and what He stood for. Jesus was able to live a perfect life of love - if what we know about Him is true. Whether He was a mere teacher, or whether He was God Himself (As many believe) He allowed Himself to be beaten, and scourged, and then nailed to a cross not only to display His great love for us, but it was also a testimony to His own excellence. He certainly could have resisted every step of the way, no? Instead, He chose to submit to our cruelty and to ask the Father to forgive us even amidst His suffering.

I completely agree with your statement about the character of Jesus but was he metaphysical or was he a great teacher/leader of people. Once again it is only my opinion but if he was sent from God with supernatural powers then that shows me God is personal but if Jesus was just a great human character then to me it doesnt give me that personal touch from God. I hope that make sense.

DHAWLIA, on 31 October 2009 - 06:50 AM, said:

I suggest you simply take it slow, and learn as much about the man as possible. One day you will come to adopt a view that resonates within yourself. You can always further your understanding and strengthen your own character, even without having a solid view of who Jesus was. I wish you understanding and wisdom, and above these a heart to serve your fellow man.

Blessings,

GK

I agree again GK. I will take it slow and I will be true to myself. Yes I can live a great life without knowing who Jesus was but it does leave me spiritually empty. Hopefully upon further contemplating and learning I will find what Jesus means to me. I do know that either way he is awesome and that I love him!

[rivanna]

Seeker,

Perhaps you could ask yourself, do you accept the fact that everyone has a slightly different version of Jesus, or do you feel there is only one correct interpretation that you have to nail down?

Seems like this is where tcpc’s Point 6 applies: “By calling ourselves progressive, we mean that we are Christians who find more grace in the search for meaning than in absolute certainty, in the questions than in the answers.”

I liked the way October’s Autumn reponded to this – “certainty requires no faith; it is blind in the worst way. Being willing to always question things requires complete trust. It is uncomfortable, but it is at least honest and does not require one to deceive himself.”

Maybe reading the Marcus Borg book that you ordered will help clarify things for you.

[AllInTheNameOfProgress]

spiritseeker, on 20 October 2009 - 01:52 AM, said:

Thanks for all the replies everyone. You have definately got me thinking. I was thinking how some people on here relate to a certain picture that means something to them and it shows them what Jesus is about. I realised that I do have something like that myself.

For me it is music. One group in particular really get me feeling spiritually in touch with Jesus. They are Casting Crowns. Whenever I listen to them I just feel like Jesus is with me and that everything is ok. It is truly a wonderful feeling.

Casting Crowns is one of my favorite Christian groups as well! Which are your favorite songs? You might want to listen to "Face of Love" by Sanctus Real. It reminds me of what you are talking about in this post.

[Kyler Rush]

Jesus has come to mean too many things to me to really say what he means. I think i should start with him meaning freedom, reliability, safety, comfort, courage, and change. Freedom in that i have a choice in the decisions i make. Reliability in that he's there to catch me when I fall. Safety in that he warns me of dangers ahead. Comfort in that when I am afraid he will hold me in his arms. Courage in that he tells me I can do it, I can overcome the obstacles in front of me. Change in that while he is always the same, he is constantly changing too. To understand what I mean, read the thread I started entitled: Thoughts on God.
Seeker, GK, allow me to ask you a question. How do you see God?
I'm going through a time of seeking at the moment, so my posts won't be that deep for a while.

Kyler.

[DHAWLIA]

Kyler Rush, on 02 November 2009 - 02:50 PM, said:

Seeker, GK, allow me to ask you a question. How do you see God?
I'm going through a time of seeking at the moment, so my posts won't be that deep for a while.

Kyler.

I've been seeking for many years, and I will continue to seek further understanding as long as there is understanding to gain. Ultimately, I see God as love, Kyler. BUT, I also see Him in all things, and I believe that all things existing are a [part] of Him. I'm somewhat a Panentheist I suppose. [God is all that exists. "I am", "All in all", or “All things“]

GK

[spiritseeker]

AllInTheNameOfProgress, on 03 November 2009 - 02:26 AM, said:

Casting Crowns is one of my favorite Christian groups as well! Which are your favorite songs? You might want to listen to "Face of Love" by Sanctus Real. It reminds me of what you are talking about in this post.

Hi AllInTheNameOfProgress! The message that Casting Crowns just really relates to me and does stir me up spiritually. I really like the song Voice of Truth but with their songs it is like picking between which of 3 sons I love the best. I love them all!

Thanks for the message on the other group. I have never heard of Sanctus Real but I will look them up now and get back to you.

What songs do you like from Casting Crowns?

This post has been edited by spiritseeker: 04 November 2009 - 12:53 AM

[spiritseeker]

Kyler Rush, on 03 November 2009 - 05:50 AM, said:

Jesus has come to mean too many things to me to really say what he means. I think i should start with him meaning freedom, reliability, safety, comfort, courage, and change. Freedom in that i have a choice in the decisions i make. Reliability in that he's there to catch me when I fall. Safety in that he warns me of dangers ahead. Comfort in that when I am afraid he will hold me in his arms. Courage in that he tells me I can do it, I can overcome the obstacles in front of me. Change in that while he is always the same, he is constantly changing too. To understand what I mean, read the thread I started entitled: Thoughts on God.
Seeker, GK, allow me to ask you a question. How do you see God?
I'm going through a time of seeking at the moment, so my posts won't be that deep for a while.

Kyler.

Hi Kyler,

I am more than happy to answer your question but please remember that I am in a position where I am trying to sort out a few things myself. Anyway here is my answer.

I 100% believe in God and I just have to look at nature to know that we were not put here by chance. Also when I look at the designs of humans there is just way to much complexity for their not to be an intelligent designer.

I dont believe in Fundamentalist Christianity because it just doesnt make sense and I do not believe that Christianity is the only way to eternal life. I have gone down the road of Deism (which is when you believe in a God/Creator) who doesnt actively participate in the world)but within my heart I just feel like there is more.

That has lead me to Progressive Christianity which gives me the opportunity to think for myself and believe in Jesus. Right now I am on a journey to find out what I believe about Jesus. I have been very stressed about it all the last month but just in the last few days I have managed to really focus and create a calmness that will help me get some answers. I do not know if they will be the answers that I hope for but either way I will be completely true to myself and follow that path.

[spiritseeker]

AllInTheNameOfProgress, on 03 November 2009 - 02:26 AM, said:

Casting Crowns is one of my favorite Christian groups as well! Which are your favorite songs? You might want to listen to "Face of Love" by Sanctus Real. It reminds me of what you are talking about in this post.

That song is FANTASTIC! You have definately got a grasp of where I am at. I will definately be adding their music to my Ipod. Thanks!